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buried and abandoned tanks


eddy8men

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Doesn't ring any bells with me although there were extensive trials with Churchills in the area around Hawick may have led to some dead vehicles. So who are Cuthbertsons?

 

 

Cuthbertson was a very talented engineer who made forestry, and hill draining ploughs and relative equipment including a tracked vehicle called Buffalo.

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As an addition I just googled Cuthbertson Biggar, and it gives the company history, including pictures of tracked landrovers built by them, which I well remember when I worked in forestry in Scotland in the 70's. Worth a look.

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I had a look at the Cuthbertson site the Buffalo doesn't look like anything tank like neither does the Tracked Land Rover but the tracked hopper does have the look of an A12 Matilda 2 about it certainly nothing like any other British AFV apart for a few rarer types like the A11 Matilda and Vickers 6tonners but like anything else the rarer stuff sometimes ended up in bazaar circumstance -for example the A20 (pre churchill prototype) end up as a make weight for the 70ton Coles tank transporter trailer. Come to think of it the A20 and several other types had what became known as the japanese style suspension.

Edited by steveo578
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great video it certainly made the dozer grunt when they tried to put it back on its tracks.

its really good to see these recoveries

love the guy giving the helping hand to remove bow machine gun , and stacking the live machine gun mags,i hope they wrote out a full risk assement, method statement and had proper insurance and gave all present a weeks induction cxourse handed out the appropriate coshh form etc etc

Iain

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Hi All,

 

Didnt know that there were trials with Churchills around Hawick. Learn something new every day. It did remind me of a late friend of my Fathers, who had a small "sawmill conveyer?" if thats the best way to describe it, made of Churchill running gear. Basically all of the wheels(?) from one side made into a conveyor which he put logs on for sawing. Not sure what powered it, or whether he still used track links for the conveyor. This was in the sixties and I was just a kid, but my father showed me it at the time. Its all gone now.

 

There are also various stories of sunken Bren carriers in the Borders, having been boggrd down and abandoned by Poles training in the Lanmmermuirs. I think that this is urbab myth, but one might have credibility, is a carrier at the bottom of Haining Loch, Selkirk. Certainly, 3rd Infantry Division did experiment with waterproofing and attempting to make carriers float here. Doubt that they would just abandon one though.

 

Dave.

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David I

Didnt know that there were trials with Churchills around Hawick. Learn something new every day.

The Hawick trial was called Trent -something of a first for the W.D. whose ability to give trials and exercises obvious names is well known, I'm surprised it wasn't called Tweed or Teviot.:nut:

 

Trent was an exercise in the summer of 1942 to test the automotive ability or otherwise of remanufactured (reworked) Churchills in a mixed road/cross country run of not less than 1000miles for each tank over a 6 week period.

 

To this end the 21st Army Tank Brigade comprising 12th Btn & 48th Btn RTR + 145th Rgt RAC, supplied a total of 25 tanks for the trial which started on 12th July 1942 ran for 10 days -then the Brigade was moved out for 10days for another exercise called "Dryshod" on return the trial was ordered to be terminated on or about the original finish day of 23-8-42. So most of the millage was made up by road running. Very few vehicles made the 1000 mile limit but surprisingly although no tank was brakedown free for churchills they did quite well.

 

Historically for tank enthusiasts 22 of these remanufactured tanks were shod with manangese track which tends to answer when they came into use. There was no definative conclusion to Trent.

 

It did remind me of a late friend of my Fathers, who had a small "sawmill conveyer?" if thats the best way to describe it, made of Churchill running gear. Basically all of the wheels(?) from one side made into a conveyor which he put logs on for sawing. Not sure what powered it, or whether he still used track links for the conveyor
Seems a fairly sensible method of log skiding -I could see the practicality of moving logs using upturned churchill bogies and would think it would be a wheels only set up not dis-similar to the small roller tressles used in wood work shops to support stock being fed through bench saws and thickenisers. Tracks would be impossible as the rolling resistance of churchill track work is fairly high -steel on steel, as to power the wheels would not be powered the log would either be pushed or chain drawn into the blade.

 

There are also various stories of sunken Bren carriers in the Borders, having been boggrd down and abandoned by Poles training in the Lanmmermuirs.
Strange how the Poles have this reputation, but who knows it could be true -has anyone ever seen never mind researched a Polish battalion/regiments war diary:???.

 

but one might have credibility, is a carrier at the bottom of Haining Loch,
Could well have some credibility it depends how deep the loch is -normally tests would have a safety cable but if it went deep probably the cable might brake or be cut for the safety of the anchor vehicle crew, in WW2 long before the general availablity of scuba diving - recovery would be too expensive even assuming the Navy (probably the only holders of heavy diving equipment) had men to spare for a recovery, the alternative would be grapples and camels (primative bouyancy bags) which required skill and again great expense and what could be done with the vehicle if it was recovered- the REME come along and write it off as the electrics-ball joints and bearings are regarded as suspect -so off it goes to a range for the PIAT worm.

 

But could be a good training exercise for modern diving enthusiasts.:-)

Edited by steveo578
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Hi All,

 

I think that the Poles did get the reputation of being fairly careless, but perhaps unfairly. There is a small memorial to a Polish crew at Roxburgh Castle, Kelso (the original ruin, not Floors) where they were killed when there vehicle went off the road .

 

Haining Loch is not big. local anglers use it, but im not sure of depth.

 

Going back to my my earlier posting about the tank near Carnwath, my friend does not know the name of the range, but the control bunker is on a hill called Crane Law?. Apparently, it was used by the RAF for ground attack from early in WW2.

 

Thanks for the info on Trent. Most interesting.

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There is a disused target to the west of the harperrigg resvervoir on the North side of the A70 and another site to the east unmarked but shows up 2 locations of a series of roads but without connection to the public road system -like a road for a target. The line of the pylons is the best location -I'm finding it difficult get a grid ref at the moment.

 

I've also found a Crane loch but no Crane Law and for Eddy there's something called the Covenanters grave but its got nothing to do with burials of A13 Mk3s:-D.

 

Steve

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There is a disused target to the west of the harperrigg resvervoir on the North side of the A70 and another site to the east unmarked but shows up 2 locations of a series of roads but without connection to the public road system -like a road for a target. The line of the pylons is the best location -I'm finding it difficult get a grid ref at the moment.

 

I've also found a Crane loch but no Crane Law and for Eddy there's something called the Covenanters grave but its got nothing to do with burials of A13 Mk3s:-D.

 

Steve

 

I have, through the powers of the force found the target marker for this range. There is no Crane Law referenced that i can find either. Very little on the internet about the range, so might have had a very short life.

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diver99

I have, through the powers of the force found the target marker for this range.

Which force is that then:police: or is it Spok.:D

 

 

There is no Crane Law referenced that i can find either. Very little on the internet about the range, so might have had a very short life.
Goswick ran for nearly 4 years as a air weapons range with huge amounts of stuff both targeted and fired -but little too has been mentioned on the net -it does get a mention in the British Airfield books from the 1970-80s -wonder if this one is too -depends where aircraft were flying from I suppose.

 

This is what I found by looking at the maps-sites on the web- points of interest highlighted in yellow.

 

 

 

Steve

target.jpg

Edited by steveo578
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love the guy giving the helping hand to remove bow machine gun , and stacking the live machine gun mags,i hope they wrote out a full risk assement, method statement and had proper insurance and gave all present a weeks induction cxourse handed out the appropriate coshh form etc etc

 

Here in Holland they would have you write an environmental effects report first, then they would turn the recovery proposal down because it would upturn the lake's soil and embankment etc. etc. :rolleyes:

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mcspool

then they would turn the recovery proposal down because it would upturn the lake's soil and embankment etc. etc. :rolleyes:

better out than in -IMO any vehicle found in a fresh water source -even marsh,bog or moor land -which are almost always catchment areas, needs recovering before the volitiles leak out, often the attitude and decisions of those in charge of environmental protection has more to do with expressing their power than protecting the environment :(. Edited by steveo578
really have to learn to spell
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I had a look at the map posted by steveo and noticed that the small symbol near the word sheepfold I thought it was a map mark of some kind.

 

It is actually a physical feature on the ground that can be clearly seen in the 1945 air photo, I wondered if it might be a range marker......

 

It is harder to see in the 2005 photo

 

Until you zoom in... and realise it is a sheepfold, just as stated on the map:cool2:

sheepfold 01.jpg

sheepfold 02.jpg

sheepfold 03.jpg

sheepfold 04.jpg

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That type of sheepfold is quite ancient and are wide spread in Southern Scotland and Northern England, some of them are even bigger and have there own names -an example is Mountshilly on the Otterburn Training Area. I don't know why they were built that way -there must be a good reason but I loose interest in sheep unless it comes with boiled potatoes peas and mint sauce.:-D But aren't these map sites incredible:thumbsup:

 

Does the 1945 photos show anything at the other marked areas in particular the one marked Target disused.

Edited by steveo578
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looked at the pic and apart from the horizontal lines near the heath fire you mention I've marked in circles what could be individual targets and the squares could shows the remenants of vehicle lines -where derelict trucks were placed in lines like convoys -there was a major vehicle line at Goswick placed at right angles to the tide line -so much stuff that it was still there in 1995, all rust, buckled tin and rubber though.

 

 

 

Steve

sheepfold 05a.jpg

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