Packhow75 Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 It sounds as though you have done this before, do you have a indication of what is involved? as I may be interested Presumably along these lines... Approach Land Owner - find out if there are plans to recover the vehicles, If not, find out if they would support a plan. This would best be managed through any intermediary who may have greater influence over the persons you need to deal with - a friendly call is always better than a cold-calling stranger (and face to face if possible). The land owner would presumably want to know what you intend doing with whatever you recover, and what you will do to restore the mess created to their property in the process, if there is anything "in it for them". IF then you get a green light to proceed, you'd need to plan the who, what, when, how etc, for which no doubt several site surveys would be required - to pinpoint the location, to address plant access routes, any required facilities (Jet Wash/Toilets/Canteen/Car Parking etc), then cover insurance and costs. Such that Rick can then roll up with the kit, dig the hole, drag out the wrecks, load them up, backfill the hole, make good to whatever the landowner has requested, then go home. I'd be happy to consider a small project like this, but am also at the wrong end of the country to make it a realistic proposal... it needs someone local to the site to manage it. Am sure there are other elements which also need to be considered and this is probably a very simplistic view. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rog8811 Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 BTW, did you find the guns? Only the upper turret one, the plane nose dived straight in so a lot of it went deeper than they could safely dig. The historian gave me some unfired bullets from it that he had made safe... they were all crushed and bent but to me they were as good as gold Approach Land Owner - find out if there are plans to recover the vehicles, If not, find out if they would support a plan. If the winery is still owned by someone who's name begins with AW I know someone who's mum was his PA for many years, could be an in, I will inquire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surveyor Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 Presumably along these lines... Approach Land Owner - find out if there are plans to recover the vehicles, If not, find out if they would support a plan. This would best be managed through any intermediary who may have greater influence over the persons you need to deal with - a friendly call is always better than a cold-calling stranger (and face to face if possible). The land owner would presumably want to know what you intend doing with whatever you recover, and what you will do to restore the mess created to their property in the process, if there is anything "in it for them". IF then you get a green light to proceed, you'd need to plan the who, what, when, how etc, for which no doubt several site surveys would be required - to pinpoint the location, to address plant access routes, any required facilities (Jet Wash/Toilets/Canteen/Car Parking etc), then cover insurance and costs. Such that Rick can then roll up with the kit, dig the hole, drag out the wrecks, load them up, backfill the hole, make good to whatever the landowner has requested, then go home. I'd be happy to consider a small project like this, but am also at the wrong end of the country to make it a realistic proposal... it needs someone local to the site to manage it. Am sure there are other elements which also need to be considered and this is probably a very simplistic view. Tim Yes, thinking onwards locating the object will be the main challenge, as volunteers getting a loan of things like ground radar could be expensive unless can persuade a university or company to donate. Trial holes may also be needed to check location. It does get interesting to think about it, don't want a repeat of the Polish Nazi Gold Train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 Presumably along these lines... Approach Land Owner - find out if there are plans to recover the vehicles, If not, find out if they would support a plan. This would best be managed through any intermediary who may have greater influence over the persons you need to deal with - a friendly call is always better than a cold-calling stranger (and face to face if possible). The land owner would presumably want to know what you intend doing with whatever you recover, and what you will do to restore the mess created to their property in the process, if there is anything "in it for them". IF then you get a green light to proceed, you'd need to plan the who, what, when, how etc, for which no doubt several site surveys would be required - to pinpoint the location, to address plant access routes, any required facilities (Jet Wash/Toilets/Canteen/Car Parking etc), then cover insurance and costs. Such that Rick can then roll up with the kit, dig the hole, drag out the wrecks, load them up, backfill the hole, make good to whatever the landowner has requested, then go home. I'd be happy to consider a small project like this, but am also at the wrong end of the country to make it a realistic proposal... it needs someone local to the site to manage it. Am sure there are other elements which also need to be considered and this is probably a very simplistic view. Tim ------------- You forgot the all important ' Risk Assessment(s) ' + line of supervision (the ultimate person to blame) ,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surveyor Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 ------------- You forgot the all important ' Risk Assessment(s) ' + line of supervision (the ultimate person to blame) ,, True, also need to know ground conditions in case pumping of ground water or ground unstable, the list may go on and on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 .. and also consider whether the land owner has any ownership rights over the vehicles themselves? Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 i know i'm an optomist and always see things as fairly straight forward so bear with me but why do we need any health and safety or insurance or any other cr@p. we aren't professionals and there won't be a crowd milling about spectating. i don't see a problem with us getting the permissions and i'm sure the location of at least one tank has already been ascertained. i reckon a recovery would take the following order 1. get permission and tank location (might only take one phone call) 2. physical recce with digging equipment to find the tank and it's depth and orientation in the ground and come up with recovery plan. 3. go back with digger and whatever else was deemed necessary then dig it out and load it up 4. make good the groundworks and head off into the sunset doesn't need to be any more complicated than that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surveyor Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 (edited) i know i'm an optomist and always see things as fairly straight forward so bear with me but why do we need any health and safety or insurance or any other cr@p. we aren't professionals and there won't be a crowd milling about spectating. i don't see a problem with us getting the permissions and i'm sure the location of at least one tank has already been ascertained. i reckon a recovery would take the following order 1. get permission and tank location (might only take one phone call) 2. physical recce with digging equipment to find the tank and it's depth and orientation in the ground and come up with recovery plan. 3. go back with digger and whatever else was deemed necessary then dig it out and load it up 4. make good the groundworks and head off into the sunset doesn't need to be any more complicated than that Can be but thinking out load, what about oils still on board, need a wash down area so that no pollution, could be only dirt and can go back in the excavation. Risk assessment would be an idea if people complain to the Health and Safety, also do we assume there could be ordnance still on board, just thinking of some jobs where we had bomb disposal on site in case we found some thing. Also would suggest needed for the extraction, hopefully recce would find out if we needed a ramp or could lift out, lifting out could mean trying to loosen sticky mud underneath Edited October 26, 2016 by Surveyor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draganm Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 I'm pretty good at talking ot people , but I think the winery might not take me seriously if I called from mainland USA. I can send an e-mail if you guys like, if no one else is feeling chatty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draganm Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 i know i'm an optomist and always see things as fairly straight forward so bear with me but why do we need any health and safety or insurance or any other cr@p.1. get permission and tank location (might only take one phone call) 2. physical recce with digging equipment to find the tank and it's depth and orientation in the ground and come up with recovery plan. 3. go back with digger and whatever else was deemed necessary then dig it out and load it up 4. make good the groundworks and head off into the sunset doesn't need to be any more complicated than that and there's this. People who make wine are happy, guys who run scrap yards in Germany are grouchy, so you're already better off than last time :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surveyor Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 .. and also consider whether the land owner has any ownership rights over the vehicles themselves? Andy Might be an idea to get them to sign it over, then do you sign it over to the individual or a recovery team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surveyor Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 Oh and who carries out the survey of the site will need to watch out for invasive species which may make the process cost prohibitive, Japanese Knotweed anyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 i'll do the recce and once the tank is out of the hole any cr@p we find that we don't want can go back in it before we fill it. (if it came out i don't see what harm we can do by putting it back where it came from). however if there is significant contamination and they want it removed then a few 1 ton bulk bags would do the job and could go on the low loader with the tank and back to my yard in manchester where i will make it disappear. all i can say is that if someone gets me on i will be leaving with the tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surveyor Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 (edited) i'll do the recce and once the tank is out of the hole any cr@p we find that we don't want can go back in it before we fill it. (if it came out i don't see what harm we can do by putting it back where it came from). however if there is significant contamination and they want it removed then a few 1 ton bulk bags would do the job and could go on the low loader with the tank and back to my yard in manchester where i will make it disappear.all i can say is that if someone gets me on i will be leaving with the tank That's fair enough, hopefully that wont be needed, again thinking out loud, as we have removed a tank, not sure how many cubic metres in volume, where would we source back fill to level the site Edited October 26, 2016 by Surveyor spellin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 i was thinking about the same thing. how many cubic yards would a covenanter fill. i estimate 3 wide, 6 long and 1 1/2 high so about 27 yds which is 27 ton of soil, which equates to 2 loads from your average tipper. if we used turfing soil then it would be around £400 but access is everything if the tipper can't get to the dig site then we'd need a dumper as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 i know i'm an optomist and always see things as fairly straight forward so bear with me but why do we need any health and safety or insurance or any other cr@p. we aren't professionals and there won't be a crowd milling about spectating. i don't see a problem with us getting the permissions and i'm sure the location of at least one tank has already been ascertained. i reckon a recovery would take the following order 1. get permission and tank location (might only take one phone call) 2. physical recce with digging equipment to find the tank and it's depth and orientation in the ground and come up with recovery plan. 3. go back with digger and whatever else was deemed necessary then dig it out and load it up 4. make good the groundworks and head off into the sunset doesn't need to be any more complicated than that Rick, unfortunately it is a great deal more complicated than that, I am not going to go into all the details as I would take far too much time but let me assure you that whilst you can freely buy or hire any construction machinery that you wish but to then operate that machinery on any land which is not owned by you it will cost you many thousands of pounds for the appropriate insurance, licences etc and no businessman worth his salt would let you anywhere near his property without those essentials. Sorry to pour cold water on your optimism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Rowe Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Once you guys have dug it up , this is the proper motor that powers it; a Meadows Flat 12 of 300Hp petrol, and also a Meadows / Wilson gearbox, sounds like a Spitfire engine when you run it up with no mufflers ! Cheers Andrew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surveyor Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Rick, unfortunately it is a great deal more complicated than that, I am not going to go into all the details as I would take far too much time but let me assure you that whilst you can freely buy or hire any construction machinery that you wish but to then operate that machinery on any land which is not owned by you it will cost you many thousands of pounds for the appropriate insurance, licences etc and no businessman worth his salt would let you anywhere near his property without those essentials. Sorry to pour cold water on your optimism. Good point, may be an informal chat with HSE to start with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 (edited) Good point, may be an informal chat with HSE to start with It would be much cheaper to hire a local machine with operator, all responsibility then lies with him should anything go wrong provided that you have checked that he holds the appropriate CITB licence, carries the correct insurance and that the machine has been recently tested. Edited October 27, 2016 by Degsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caddy Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Was going to write a bit on HASAWA, but I really cannot be bothered - far too hypothetical to get into this sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surveyor Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Was going to write a bit on HASAWA, but I really cannot be bothered - far too hypothetical to get into this sort of thing. True but if we get a procedure sorted may help with any future project, talking through things here may help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whittingham warrior Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Having read the above I wouldn't bother and I wouldn't bother to get out of bed either. I thought Job had it bad in the Bible but poor Rick should be frightened to leave his front door let alone pick up a spade. It is almost like a list of things why not to do anything, is this the attitude that encouraged men to set sail and discover 'new' countries and enslave millions for the British Empire? How many projects on here would be done if a risk assessment was carried out first? Every vehicle I've bought I have had doubts about as in Why? But then just got on with it. Surely the simplest thing to do is ring up the owners and ask can I dig up your tank, if no then game over...... But if yes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1950 Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 There is always more than one way to look at something. You take the two opposites and end up somewhere near the middle. You have to at least explore what can go wrong before diving in. Ignore that little voice in the back of your head at your peril Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Lawrence Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 I drive past the winery every day, just lacking the GPR For many years I worked alongside a local historian who knew of the tanks. he had lived in Dorking all his life and saw them burried. Sadly he died 30 years ago so no chance of more info. He had his own maps of all the downed planes and V1's that came down in the area. He took me on a dig once, they were trying to recover the guns from a Heinkel 111 that crashed in Blackbrook, as a kid he had got to the crash site before the home guard got there and recovered the top end of the steering yoke, and discovered that the ball races were marked "made in Birmingham"! It sounds like David Knight (long deceased) who told me about the recovery of the Covenanter. I think many of the previous comments are 'pie in the sky'. Who would seriously expect a award winning multi million pound business to allow heavy plant in to trash a sizeable area unless by chance they were going to develop that site anyway? I should think that they are aware of the remaining tanks and would have suitable contacts (i.e. Bovington) to call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 The winery is a business premises , therefore must be a employer (full details - as defined in various H&S legislation) The winery will always be the principal as long as they own / lease the land. Therefore - they are the ' employer ' as defined by :- Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 In the event of any injury or certain type of incident(s) on their premises then the winery would have to complete the RIDDOR form. --------- Of course the Greek language students drafting all the legislation , there will be key words where there are (conveniently) no meaning explained in any 'Definitions' Section of the Act / Regulation. So if in the past a previous judgement has not been made - then it is a court case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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