Stolly sort of swimming, trouble getting out.

[72rover]

You aren't going mad- Mythbusters tried it!

 

They concluded- with the "pig test"- that although a snapped winch cable would not sever limbs, it could cause pretty severe damage; unlikely to be fatal (but that was a possibility), but extremely painful nonetheless.

 

Several years ago, I was flying across the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay to take some aerial photos of a site on the Eastern Shore I was appraising. Half way across, we saw two LCACs just sitting there. Now LCACs are a common sight, but two of 'em just sitting is unusual, so the pilot did a couple of circles.

 

First thing that seemed *really* unusual was that it appeared someone had thrown a couple of gallons of red paint through one of the propulsion fans. Then we saw tarps covering something at opposite ends of the cargo deck. Whatever took place happened just a few minutes earlier. They didn't seem too happy to have us hanging around, so we left - without taking any photos.

 

It wasn't until the nightly news that evening that I learned what happened. The two LCACs were practicing a towing exercise. One simulated engine failure and the other tows it. With a 2" steel cable. Which broke. Which cut some poor chap clean in two.

 

Now I've done a lot of winching with both Rovers I've seen several lines break, even broken a winch line myself. (A 1954 AeroParts capstan winch on the '72, and with a capstan, I've got to be right in the 'kill zone' to run it. It was ultra-low stretch dacron polyester, so it just dropped when it parted, it didn't 'store' energy the way steel can....) I treat any rope/cable under tension with utmost respect and usually drape another rope, a floor mat or tarp over the line to act as a drag on what can easily be a lethal weapon. 'Spectators' are kept well away....

[mike65]

I am getting images in my head of something I probably saw on Discovery a year or two back.

 

I suspect it was the two Americans who made a series trying to build a better weapon. Many of them, but not all, were mediaeval.

 

I can see images of a steel hawser being deliberately snapped and smacked into a side of pork.

 

ISTR the outcome was as you say, not cut in half.

 

But potentially fatal internal injuries.

 

As usual I stand ready to be corrected.

 

 

Beatten to it but the link is helpful iy tou want to read more

 

Mythbusters did it.

Conclusion was it would not cut you in half but could cause fatal internal injuries.

They tested it on pig carcasess,

 

http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/10/episode_62_killer_cable_snaps.html

 

Mike

 

Beatten to it but the link is helpful iy tou want to read more

Edited July 29, 2010 by mike65
someone got tjere 1st

[Desert Rat]

'Cut in two' is a term often used in these inccidents but in reality it is more likey a case of severe trauma or horrific injuries. I can't say i have ever seen or heard of anyone being cleanly halved by a rope but as i said i have seen and heard of people being pulped or severed.

 

Lets not forget that I'm so bloody clever that i have a scar across my shin.

100% my own fault.

I was winching a large bowser up a slope onto a trailer and had about 3 feet of slack cable (only about a 10mm line) when the bowser ran backwards down the slope, the rope went tight which turned it from a rope into a steel bar and it hit me square in the shin, shattering the bone. I fell forward and over the rope.

Should have known better.

 

Can anyone remember the chap who was towing with a kinetic rope that pulled a Nato hitch off a vehicle he was towing and then came through the back window and killed him ?

 

Get some good kit, look after it and use it safely.

[Desert Rat]

I remember the Mythbusters program.

The only trouble with this test is that a snapping cable is not the same as a cable suddenly going taught. If you read of any accidents, this nearly always seems to be the case - loose to solid.

The other thing is that humans seem to have a nasty habit of having their bones snap and come out of various places. In the inccident i saw, thats what had caused the most damage.

Its often the same in road accidents. Bones are broken and then cause horrible injuries as they come apart or out.

 

To be honest, my biggest fear are shackles or hitches breaking and then becoming a missile on the end of a strap/rope.

[paulob1]

agree entirely...shackles scare me when used...

[Desert Rat]

agree entirely...shackles scare me when used...

 

As i said, if done correctly and with the correct, well maintained equipment, you should have no problems. You'll never be 100% safe but at least you've done all you can.

The accident i mentioned with the kinetic rope was due to the actual hitch coming off.

 

Was it NPTimber who had some pics on the forum of his Scammell and a Militant winching out a digger ?

[R Cubed]

This thread has been very interesting in that I now know that the winch cables,ect need to be tested. I dont want to be a stick in the mud but at an certain show I attend there are a number of heavy commercials that gointo the arena and do recovery demonstrations for the public to watch. Surely these vehicles should have test certificates for the cables and if they dont then should not be used. The other point is where does the certification of the winch cables stop what about landrovers and other small 4x4 vehicles fitted with a winch, should they have a test certificate? I have a trailer with a 12 volt winch that we use to winch on search lights. should this also have a cerificate?

 

Thanks

 

Howard

 

Thought I would put in my bit as it seems to be going off topic a bit, but I thought there were only regulations and testing certs for lifting machines and equipment. As far a I am aware there are no regulations for winching, try and get cert for an electric winch when you buy one I have never seen one, this is why they state on them "not to be used for lifting" their get out clause.

Then what about what you fix it to and what bolts you use and is it bolted to a rusty chassis where do you stop :nut:

[ruxy]

Pity this thread degenerated in to a lack of respect to alternative viewpoints . Not that I would endorse damage to revetments and another persons "River bank management & flood defences" OR new frontiers to the worst types of the green laning movement. Good entertainment for the troops - YES , possibly the next time the Stolly should have a cargo of concrete railway sleepers and tree trunks and give a demonstration of the loader crane and how the task can be done with no river bank damage or winch assistance.

[private mw]

can we all stick to the motorways in future and that way theres no pollution at all .:cool2:

[rbrtcrowther]

A good winch of any size should have a limit switch or a stall rating lower than the cable fitted.

 

the crane i drive at work has a weigh load fitted and tells me a lot of information including the load on the hook. I know what the load ratings of the tackle used below the hook and therefore never get in a situation where breakage will occure. The last thing on my mind is the cable breaking or tackle faileure (lots of other things such as outrigger loadings and wind to worry about) all the gear is inspected and tested. I do not consider craning dangerous if carried out correctly.

 

If a winch is fitted with the correct rope in good order and limiting device and used properly there is little danger. It the rigging that often causes issuse. if you are un certain of the required pull the chains shackles and bridles should have at least the same rating as the main cable even better if they are over spec.

if a snatch block is used it really needs to be more than twice the main winch pull and the same with the tackle connecting it to the casualty.

Compound rigging is really best avioded if you don't know what your doing.:nut:

 

A scammell explorer has a line pull of 15 tons set at the limit switch. If a double purchace is required it should be run back to a holdfast in the ground not to the rear tow hook. Also the truck should never be anchored to the ground or another truck/ buldoser to stop it slipping back via the front tow hook. this will put undue strain on the chassis. the skid pans under the front wheels and rear overall track will provide the nessary grip. if the truck slides back you may be on the limit of the winch.

Taking any extra purchases back to holdfasts in the ground rather than the back towing hook will take half the load into the ground and not on to the back of the scammell. also ahold fast will show signs of "giving" rather than pinging accross the field which is what may happen if all the load is placed on the rear of the scammell:-)

However most scammells are fitted with diesel engines and have had the limit swicth disconected:embarrassed: if You really want to use this winch in anger it would not be hard to connect this back up so it sounds an alarm as there is no magneto to trip on a diesel.

sorry if i upset any one by saying winching is not dangerous:blush: but those are my reasons. Its when old unmarked shackles and unlimited winches are used or fastened to rusty bits of the casualty that rip off it becomes dangerous.

Our winch rope at work snapped 15 years ago and sinch that it is shortened (the rusty bit removed) every 12 months and we have had no further issues.

the most interesting thing i have found out from all this is the is an alowence needed for vehicle damage that needs to be added and will be trying to find out more info on this or if there is a scale to work off. You never stop learning.

keep on trucking:-)......and getting stuck......and winching then getting stuck again:blush:

[antarmike]

I can't be bothered to read the whole thread. Someone might have said already, but that is Steve Guest getting clouted by the flailing strop. I recon he was lucky.

 

My take on all this is if it was a recovery operation, then you would have had to get the stricken vehicle out from the position it is in. This wasn't a recovery operation, because the Stolly was fully functioning and could and should have found a better place to leave the water. By choosing this spot makes it an act of idiocy, that could have been avoided by finding a sensible exit point.

 

To my mind the entry into the water was just as daft, the hatches in the roof being inches from the water line on entry. Lucky it didn't go under on the way in then it would have been a recovery!!!

Edited July 29, 2010 by antarmike

[julezee001]

When incidents happen in lifting or winching situations they are not accidents. They are caused by either faulty/ incorrect equipment or incompetence. I have seen too many incidents resulting in death or serious injury and have an attack of the horrors when I see the things that some people will do. To suggest that its an accident and is humorous when

a sea water rotted rope breaks beggars belief and is totally irresponsible. I think you will find it is not only bad practice but illegal to use untested equipment. Please everybody take note of what Cosrec and other professionals have to say, it could save your own or someone else's life and if you intend to use a vehicle for winching go on a course to learn the correct techniques, it will be money well spent.

 

Accidents are by definition accidents, otherwise someone would have planned to deliberately snap the rope surely? Whilst the outcome to anyone who has any real experience of winching was entirely predictable, with the fibre rope parting it was not likely to produce fatal injury.

 

I would suspect that the use of untested equipment in this case is perfectly legal if not necessarily sensible. As I would guess no money changed hands, and the Scammell driver doesn't do recovery for a living, I doubt that there was a need for the kit to be tested. If it were a professional job, all the kit would probably need dated test certs and marker rings, both for the operators reasurance, and for their insurance cover to be valid.

 

As a side note, many years ago I watched with growing concern a recovery operation on the off road course at W & P. One truck stuck nose into a deep hole, with another trying to winch it out forward??? Lots of people standing far too close. Fortunately the winch drive pin broke and not the steel cable. In the end a half track using what looked like its wartime cable pulled the truck out backwards without a problem.

 

The keys to recovery are one person taking control, planning/explaining what needs to be done, and a good dose of common sense??

 

Jules

[stal108]

I will say from comments made thing have been hilighted

position for launch we went up and down the medway and couldnt find a better place as someone else has launched a stolly from there we went with it. The boat slip is 4 miles away.??

 

How would a stolly cross the rhine?? cet lol wouldnt they break down lol and still be on a drawing board somewhere 1960s??? People who have been to the rhine will know how big a river it is and quite fast flow in many places but there are places you could just drive out .Swimming across would be real fun and dangerous.

 

Overwidth trucks ye bad boys, stgo cat3 as my foden is.. i ran it solo to beltring....

 

I see people say winch ropes wont cut limbs off em,, not sure i agree what about the pully block or shackles flying with it em,, I this instance nick put on 25ton shackles alont the line to stop whip. The rope that broke (HEP ROPE)i agree should never been used should have been skiped years ago, that i would say was the balls up using it. Old steve g was a lucky chap i dont think he was in danger of death but who knows what could have happend to him.

I have had a jive at some but i think we all learn from this we will do it again for sure but a little different so those who have shouted and put adverse comments i would say have made a point and that what a forum is for so please dont stop.

 

This thread could save a life!

 

I am glad there are people who do post there concern.

 

I am also glad there are people who do he do as well. there would be no comments exept for them.... For sure we will post the next episode ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,!!!

[Degsy]

I will say from comments made thing have been hilighted

position for launch we went up and down the medway and couldnt find a better place as someone else has launched a stolly from there we went with it. The boat slip is 4 miles away.??

 

How would a stolly cross the rhine?? cet lol wouldnt they break down lol and still be on a drawing board somewhere 1960s??? People who have been to the rhine will know how big a river it is and quite fast flow in many places but there are places you could just drive out .Swimming across would be real fun and dangerous.

 

Overwidth trucks ye bad boys, stgo cat3 as my foden is.. i ran it solo to beltring....

 

I see people say winch ropes wont cut limbs off em,, not sure i agree what about the pully block or shackles flying with it em,, I this instance nick put on 25ton shackles alont the line to stop whip. The rope that broke (HEP ROPE)i agree should never been used should have been skiped years ago, that i would say was the balls up using it. Old steve g was a lucky chap i dont think he was in danger of death but who knows what could have happend to him.

I have had a jive at some but i think we all learn from this we will do it again for sure but a little different so those who have shouted and put adverse comments i would say have made a point and that what a forum is for so please dont stop.

 

This thread could save a life!

 

I am glad there are people who do post there concern.

 

I am also glad there are people who do he do as well. there would be no comments exept for them.... For sure we will post the next episode ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,!!!

 

Although my comments may have seemed harsh by some my concern was genuine and at least has produced the right result, lots of comment and hopefully everybody learning something and that includes me. There is no substitute for experience but also there is always something else to be learned as cosrec has proved with his very interesting 'rules of thumb'. As has been pointed out testing only applies to commercial operators as a legal and insurance requirement but I pointed this out in order to show the importance of only using the proper kit and not just hoping that some piece of old tat will do.

[croc]

I wasn't there so I am not going to comment, but didn't we do this all before in the recovery thread?

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?8900-Recovery-and-Towing

[ruxy]

OK - like most things in life , best not to get into oversimplification. I am going on memory here because I have got rid of all of my course notes etc.

 

The question is this , if a person had been badly injured by the broken rope (or killed) then sooner or later it would come to the notice of the police and a "Enforcing Authority" that could be a Local Authority or the HSE.

 

If it were a truly private event (By invitation only) on private owned land or land hired for a event - then the enforcing authority would have no right of investigation & subsequent prosecution , possibly the police would.

 

If this were a riverbank - say part of a camp site or event field WHERE ENTRY IS BY PAYMENT OF GATE MONEY - IN other words WHERE MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC CAN ATTEND ,then a "Enforcing Authority" would have to investigate and prepare a case for the DPP.

 

Some people may recall in the news several months ago prosecution of a "Sculptor" following his work of art "Dreamspace" being blown away at Chester-le-Street , Durham.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/8662948.stm

[utt61]

If the spectators were members of the public who had paid to attend, and if one or more of them been killed, then by now the event organisers would be facing manslaughter charges.

 

Based on the evidence of the video and the comments in this thread, I cannot see that the organisers would have any reasonable prospect of an effective defence to such charges.

 

Risk management for an event like this now (in these times of profligate litigation) would be an absolute nightmare, but there would have to be procedures in place for protecting members of the public (and in fact other exhibitors) from ill-conceived actions of exhibitors. There is no evidence of this.

 

This incident is a good example of a "near miss" that could so easily have had catastrophic results for any victims, for the organisers, and for the MV hobby as a whole. Best that we all reflect on what happened, what could have happened, and make sure that next time the lessons are heeded.

 

Thank goodness everyone walked away unharmed.

[paulob1]

If the spectators were members of the public who had paid to attend, and if one or more of them been killed, then by now the event organisers would be facing manslaughter charges.

 

Based on the evidence of the video and the comments in this thread, I cannot see that the organisers would have any reasonable prospect of an effective defence to such charges.

 

Risk management for an event like this now (in these times of profligate litigation) would be an absolute nightmare, but there would have to be procedures in place for protecting members of the public (and in fact other exhibitors) from ill-conceived actions of exhibitors. There is no evidence of this.

 

This incident is a good example of a "near miss" that could so easily have had catastrophic results for any victims, for the organisers, and for the MV hobby as a whole. Best that we all reflect on what happened, what could have happened, and make sure that next time the lessons are heeded.

 

Thank goodness everyone walked away unharmed.

 

poppy cock....mostly anyway.

[fesm_ndt]

Hi, some one mentioned about all winches having to be tested along with shackles and chains, I know this is true if being used for a Business. But what about if its your hobby, lets say if you are doing a winching display pulling one truck accross a field with another, and there are peaple watching from a distance, do they all need to have up to date test certificates.

 

Thanks

 

Howard

 

An interesting question in a rather disappointing thread (disappointing as arguing amongst each other seems really pointless, nice blokes and gals in here, most the time friendly with one another )

 

Anyway a lot of lifting gear shackles, hooks etc get SWL tested which is annoying as they lift a dead weight with it. Really annoying as in reality you are stressing the component. The other check is NDT (Non Destructive Testing), if steel typically by MT (Magnetic Testing) using a magnet and special applied particles. Or can use PT (Penetrant Testing) where you coat the component in dye which soaks into surface breaking defects. Both methods extremely easy to do. I been meaning to update a thread on this as useful during engine rebuilds.

 

Steel wire ropes on cranes, vehicle winches and elevators is all visual. Yes can be tested with NDT equipment but the crane lobby didnt want to. Common rule of thumb is no more than 6 broken wires in a lay length. Lots of other rope problems/defects but most vehicle winches would fail on kinks etc anyway

[cosrec]

Hope this link works http://tow411.yuku.com/topic/91329

 

Its for those who think winch cables are harmless. Sad thing is it will have been preventable either equipment not up to job or under estimation on forces involved

[rbrtcrowther]

 

 

this also looks like the tackle fastening the cable to the casualty failed. See how the cable flopped to the ground. but if they were chains that failed bits could have been shot anywhere. once again its the gear that causes the issues and miscalculating the forces required. the simple soloution is dont use tack with a lower rating than the winch your connecting to:nut:

[cosrec]

One thing that pees me of it is the wording Freak accident no its not a Freak accident it happens many times a day through out the world and nobody gets injured the only time it becomes a Freak accident is when it happens in your local area and somebody you know gets grief over it

[N.O.S.]

A bit like having a close shave every day (except hairies like Gritineye )

[Desert Rat]

 

this also looks like the tackle fastening the cable to the casualty failed. See how the cable flopped to the ground. but if they were chains that failed bits could have been shot anywhere. once again its the gear that causes the issues and miscalculating the forces required. the simple soloution is dont use tack with a lower rating than the winch your connecting to:nut:

 

There have always been two trains of thought with chains, mainly those who say that using a chain will, in the event of a breakage, kill the inertia due to it being a multitude of links, not one single piece.

However, the other side of the coin is that the link of the chain that breaks normally goes off like a .303 round !!

 

On a straight tow, I always prefer a heavy towing chain to a wire rope but as we know you don't always get a choice.

[rbrtcrowther]

Perhaps we can all stay safe if we over do it:D The biggest shackle/chain you can use for the job. stronger than any load you can put on it. Oh and make sure you connect it to something that is firmly attached to the thing your towing:cool2:

I often see lots of second hand sets of lifting brothers for sale on trade stalls around steam rallys. having looked at some of them closely they would not pass an inspection. and they want silly money for them too. I've heard people saying they will be fine for use at home and for towing ect but this is the sort of thing that fails and explodes bits of chain link all over the place. I'm not saying al of them are knackerd but this bear in mind if the thing you are towing / lifting is near the max SWL on your decidedly second hand overpriced new purchace :-) The man who inspects out gear at work is really sound and is more than happy to have a look at my newly purchased overpriced decidely second hand stuff. he will either say yey or nay or sometimes remove/ renew the termimal links ect. However being slightly in the know i haven't managed to buy anything dodgy but i still have it checked by the nice man for free.