restoration Loyd Carrier

[Bluebell]

Alastair all your Ford componentry is put together with National fine,( and coarse) (UNF, UNC), as is the case with the Bren and universal carriers- The ford components are unf/unc, the rest is BSF. Incidentally the plate steel in the carriers, is metric (dont know about the Loyd)

[Adrian Barrell]

British armour plate of that era was all metric, it was a result of buying armour before WW2 from Austria I believe. All the wartime British tanks I have had anything to do with had metric armour and imperial everything else!

 

In some ways it makes restoration work a lot easier!

Edited August 20, 2010 by Adrian Barrell

[eddy8men]

you learn something new everyday (especially if you didn't know much to begin with)

 

eddy

[79x100]

I noted the reference to Canadian usage of Loyds. This is something that arose on MLU a while back (I was only involved as there was a motorcycle in the photo). I've fixed the photo link there now.

 

Mark Tonner ID'd the charger carrier from the South Alberta Regiment

 

http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8959

[steveo578]

Adrian Barrell

it was a result of buying armour beore WW2 from Austria I believe.

 

Certainly some early armour for Cruiser Tank A13 Mk1 came from Boeher in Austria but most was home produced -that was primarily a problem of too much demand rather the too small a capacity -most of the big producers such as Beadmore were stressed out trying to supply the navy to bother with piddling little orders for 14mm plate. Additionally as far as I know CTA plate was home sourced.

 

I really haven't given it much thought as to why tank armour is measured in metric whereas naval armour and boiler plate even in WW2 was still measured in weight - 1foot sq 40lb plate = 1inch thick etc -perhaps it was to facilitate arms exports.

[ajmac]

It's interesting that the fuel tanks are rivited in that photo of the early TPC, I noticed a mention of a supersession in the parts book but it didn't say what the difference was. The others I have seen are seam welded so they must be the later version. Great photo, where and when was it taken?

[Bluebell]

I Took the photo, at Tank day October last year. The Loyd belongs to Brett and Susan Hopkins from Hamilton New Zealand.

[Adrian Barrell]

Steve, I was aware that the vast majority of plate was home produced, and certainly all the later production. I'm not altogether sure why manufacture was continued in metric sizes, probably just because that's always how it had been!

 

I actually just measured a couple of Cromwell turrets to confirm this and found the following.

 

Cromwell turrets used a 1/2" ms inner shell with a 20mm BP roof welded in and 1 3/4", 2" and 2 1/2" BP plates bolted on. So not all armour was metric, perhaps it was just the thinner sizes. Certainly Cromwell engine decks are 14mm and Churchill VII turret roof is, like Cromwell, 20mm.

 

All grist to the mill!

[Bluebell]

Adrian, When we get down to detail, the front armour on carriers went up from 10mm to something around 11.3mm. this may have been the result of progress. The floor in a carrier is 3mm the sides 8mm etc etc.

I enjoy your input. Thanks.

[The Bedford Boys]

Just as an interesting note, not ALL carrier armour was metric either. Perhaps the manufacturers couldn't procure enough metric armour at one point so started to manufacture the shortfall, in imperial sizes??

 

Red, who owns the loyd in your second picture? I don't ever recall markings on Bretts Loyd and I've driven the thing! Is it Motats? How many more are around New Zealand do you think?

[ajmac]

Cromwell turrets used a 1/2" ms inner shell with a 20mm BP roof welded in

It is a similar deal on the Loyd, the entire vehicle is imperial, but the add on front and side BP is 7mm, I wondered why it was metric!

[Bluebell]

Just as an interesting note, not ALL carrier armour was metric either. Perhaps the manufacturers couldn't procure enough metric armour at one point so started to manufacture the shortfall, in imperial sizes??

 

Red, who owns the loyd in your second picture? I don't ever recall markings on Bretts Loyd and I've driven the thing! Is it Motats? How many more are around New Zealand do you think?

I've driven it too. Maybe you are right about it being Motats. Come to think of it Brett and Susan's has a dent in the side. The only other one that I know of (Dave Dawsons then Mike Dawsons's) is now the property of Mike Antonivich.

[The Bedford Boys]

I've driven it too. Maybe you are right about it being Motats. Come to think of it Brett and Susan's has a dent in the side. The only other one that I know of (Dave Dawsons then Mike Dawsons's) is now the property of Mike Antonivich.

 

And a dent in the front guard from Tank Day!! The second loyd picture you posted appears to have a rubber front mudguard? I have seen these in photos before. Does anyone know what it indicates about the machine?

 

The museum in Waiouru also has a loyd. Looking at a photo of what I have been told is Motat's Loyd, I don't think the picture you posted is of the same vehicle and it is not Waiourus either.

Edited August 21, 2010 by The Bedford Boys
more info

[montie]

Here are some pics of another universal carrier. http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?18874-Armoured-Vehicle-identification&p=207548#post207548

[steveo578]

Montie the photos you posted on the other thread were of T16 carrier about 15000 built in USA from 1943-45 -it quite different from a Universal -different trackwork -no warp stearing and a 95bhp ford mercury motor.

[montie]

Montie the photos you posted on the other thread were of T16 carrier about 15000 built in USA from 1943-45 -it quite different from a Universal -different trackwork -no warp stearing and a 95bhp ford mercury motor.

 

Sorry, didn't know the difference, it was the info I had on her, learning as I go. Good thing we have you knowledgeable people on the forum!

[ajmac]

A spell of clear weather offered me the chance to further dismantle the front of the Loyd, you will see from the photos that there isn't much left at the farm now, at least from the front of the Carrier.

The torque tube and drive shaft within are in perfect condition, without any damage. Coupled to the back of the torque tube is a short propshaft which interfaces with the gearbox output shaft. This was in usable condition but the cover will need repair as it has three holes and the propshaft within has two impacts. These are part of it's history so they can stay without any issue with the shaft operation.

 

All of the nuts and bolts holding the rear of the torque tube coupling to the cross member were covered in grease so same off without any problem, most of the larger fastners holding on the front lower hull plate came undone surprisingly easly. It was the smaller ones that gave the most problems, so in the end they had to be cut with the little 4.5" angle grinder. While I was cutting I took off all the large bolts holding the rear chassis angle to the chassis, thus on the next visit we can lift out the engine & gearbox. That just leaves three axles to be removed and the chassis can to taken the two miles into Lincoln where it is to be repaired.

 

 

[ajmac]

After some info from a fellow Loyd owner on the location of the chassis number we set about removing the paint and rubbing the area down with some emery cloth. You can see the result below: Chassis No: 3979

I doubt we will ever know how each company designated numbers, but IF it was based on the number of vehicles in a contract the Loyd can only have been made by Ford or Wolsley as these two companies both built in excess of 3979 Loyds...

[ajmac]

Another hour and a half on the Loyd this Sunday, perhaps the last of the 2010 good weather? Removed one of the rear brake drums from the other Loyd as they are in better condition than the one I am restoring, once the hub and sprocket have been removed the drum will go to the Pattern makers, that's unless anyone knows where I can get three good Loyd brake drums from! They look like Universal Carrier items at a glance, but more detailed investigation reveals they are unique to the Loyd.

All drum internal components were in good condition, but the brake expander unit was broken, so I'll need to find another.

Just before we left I undid (amazing what comes undone!) the angle brackets which hold the front hull plate and the pedals, you can see the parts on the bench in the photos below. Jenni and Izzie helped out, but Jenni's white top didn't stay that way for long:D. My god those drums are not a light unit:shocked:

 

Below you will also see a photo of a Ford 4spd Gearbox, it is in good condition even though when it was opened it had plenty of water in it. I will rebuild it over the winter. I must thank Eddy for the box, he brought it over from Manchester for me the other day whilst on a Flathead V8 collection run!

Edited September 6, 2010 by ajmac

[steveo578]

ajmac

There is something wrong with the Loyd in the photos, couldn't put my finger on it at first..... the rear bogies are on back to front, the springs should be facing the sprockets. Wouldn't think it makes any difference in the ride, but not correct.

Possibly the owner is aware of something we're not- during another rainy english weekend I found these two photos in an old AFV book. they are of an Israeli captured Egyptian Loyd T/T during the 1948-49 war. The Eygptians used loyd for towing 6pdr and surprisingly still had 2pdrs towed by U/Cs. I suspect but cannot find any proof as yet that the rear bogie was reversed to reduce the tendency of the Loyds rear pulling down whilst towing. After the fashion of both Windsor and Oxford carriers both of which were designed to replace the Loyd.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Pzkpfw-e]

Nice to see you've got " 'Er indoors" to assist. Mine caught me looking at photos of rusty stuff and said "No you're not getting any of those".

Since my mechanical abilities run out at pop-riveting, gun-gum and changing spark plugs, she's pretty safe there.

[ajmac]

You could tell how long it had been since I last visited the Loyd, the grass was so tall I nearly missed them on the Farm.

 

Work progressed with the removal of the front axle tube (what was left of it) and then the floor plate, the axle fixing bolts pass through the floor plate so that had to come off first of all. One side of the plate is ok and as the plate is mirrored it will be easy to draw it up and get a replacement made. Interestingly at the back of the floor plate there is a well formed relief which complicates the otherwise simple item, at the moment I haven't put much thought into why it is there. With the bogie and axle removed it was possible to have a good look at the bogie, the date of November 43 as a casting date helps confirm 1943 as a date of manufacture for the vehicle.

 

At the other end of the chassis I removed the cross chassis angle and radiator support brackets along with the towing spring, this will allow my friend and I to lift out the engine and box with the forks later in the week. That should leave only the second axle tube and rear axle to be removed before the chassis can go to the fab shop.

 

The Gearbox shown in an earlier post has been stripped down and sent for acid dipping, it proved to be in great condition, all the bearings perfect, they just need to go in the ultrasonic bath for an hour.

 

Last but not least, the steering and brake parts came back from the acid dippers and have been primed ready for a top coat and then storage. I can't rave about acid dipping enough, there was not a spot of corrosion or paint left on the parts and they were passified as as not to rust before being primed. I could even make out the Loyd part numbers stamped on virtually every bracket!

Edited October 18, 2010 by ajmac

[Scammell4199]

This acid dipping sounds interesting, i've never heard of that before. I'm normally a fan of blasting but it is alot of work to mask off bits that don't want blasting, like machined surfaces etc.

Is acid dipping expensive, and do you know if there are many operators?

 

Cheers, Richard

[eddy8men]

glad to hear the restoration is still moving along, speaking from experience i know it's hard to juggle family, work and money around such things but you seem to be doing a great job and for what it's worth the quality of your work is very good.

 

keep the pics coming

 

eddy

[ajmac]

Acid Cleaning.

I haven't been down to the factory for a few years, as my Dad lives closer he has been taking and collecting the parts for me. The system has a number of steps to cover removal of both paint, oil and corrosion.

 

1) Basic degreasing.

2) Hot Caustic bath to remove all paint and HC deposits

3) Hot HCL bath to remove oxides

4) Wash bath to remove all chemicals

5) Pasifying treatment so that item doesn't rust before you paint it.

 

Cost isn't too much if you deliver a bulk lot. However for entire body shells there is a higher price.

 

I use: www.surfaceprocessing.co.uk

 

Thanks Eddy, that gearbox was a cracker, even though it looked like cr*p! I've got to put the output shaft UJ and brackets from the Loyd box on it and modify the gear selector stick to interface with the Loyd remote linkage. Just got to get some paint mixed now to get the right Ford Dark Green.

Edited October 18, 2010 by ajmac