Operating HGVs

[Markheliops]

Hi Grumpy -

 

Interesting article.

 

After having a read of the link you posted I think you may be getting confused between EC and UK domestic driving legislation.

 

Check out UK domestic driving section.

 

It does state the vehicle classes which are exempt from EC regs are subject to UK domestic regs, which do require written driving records to be kept.

 

The only exemption being a vehcile with no O licence and classed as private driving.

 

Markheliops

[LoggyDriver]

The only exemption being a vehcile with no O licence and classed as private driving.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That would mean almost everyone on here then as I would have thought everyone is registered as using their vehicle for private use and no O licence.

[Markheliops]

The only exemption being a vehcile with no O licence and classed as private driving.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That would mean almost everyone on here then as I would have thought everyone is registered as using their vehicle for private use and no O licence.

 

Loggy -

 

I don't think it's that straight forward to be honest.

 

There are many regulations which are combined to tell you what you can and can not do.

 

For instance - how many of us are running around with a military vehicle, loaded but taxed as a Historic Vehicle!!!

 

The historic tax rules can only be applied to an UNLADEN vehicle. As soon as you put a load on it - it can not be classed or taxed as a historic vehicle.

 

If your vehicle tax is incorrect - then welcome to thousands of drivers who have no insurance as your insurance would become void!!!

 

It's a mine field out there as previously said.

 

Spotted this item whilst doing some research on the subject.

 

Driving their horsebox at weekends could be virtually impossible for many amateur riders, due to yet more red tape over vehicle legislation. An about-turn and strict ruling from the Vehicle Operator Services Agency (VOSA) bans anyone with a full-time job from driving their HGV lorry at weekends.

 

The latest ruling was given to reader Miles Nicholson last month, and confirmed to H&H. It concerns the rest periods required by law for all drivers of large vehicles over 7.5tonnes (formerly HGV), whether private or professional — and is not only at odds with previous advice, but comes as a shock to UK equestrian organisations.

 

From Horse and Hounds and as I read it - if you hold ANY full time job (whatever it is doing) it could scupper you if you want to drive an HGV during the weekends.

 

Heres the link.

 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/390/278245.html

 

Feel free to make any sense out of it but I wonder if this could cause a problem with our hobby.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Getting back to the initial question - Hell - I can't even remember what it was - was it important.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Markheliops

[antarmike]

Loggy -

 

I don't think it's that straight forward to be honest.

 

There are many regulations which are combined to tell you what you can and can not do.

 

For instance - how many of us are running around with a military vehicle, loaded but taxed as a Historic Vehicle!!!

 

The historic tax rules can only be applied to an UNLADEN vehicle. As soon as you put a load on it - it can not be classed or taxed as a historic vehicle.

 

If your vehicle tax is incorrect - then welcome to thousands of drivers who have no insurance as your insurance would become void!!!

 

It's a mine field out there as previously said.

 

Getting back to the initial question - Hell - I can't even remember what it was - was it important.

 

Historic vehicles can be laden, but they are unable to carry goods for profit.

 

Old farm tractors are correctly taxed historic, even if they are still at work on a farm, but they can be still used to move loads on trailers, in exactly the same way as modern tractors are used.

 

The ruling is that HGV's still being used in business for the carraige of goods for hire and reward, cannot be registered Historic, even if they qualify for age (date of first use). They have to remain taxed as Goods vehicles.

 

Providing an historic vehicle is carrying your own goods, not for profit it can be used laden, but taxed as Historic.

 

The rub comes that once laden it is no longer exempt plating and testing, and the driver may also loose entitlement to drive a pre 1960 HGV without an HGV licence. But although these are unfortunate consequences of putting a load on a historic vehicle, it nevertheless is legal to carry a load on an historic vehicle, providing MOT, and drivers licence requirements are met, and it is not for hire and reward.

Edited January 27, 2010 by antarmike

[LoggyDriver]

Loggy -

 

I don't think it's that straight forward to be honest.

 

There are many regulations which are combined to tell you what you can and can not do.

 

For instance - how many of us are running around with a military vehicle, loaded but taxed as a Historic Vehicle!!!

 

The historic tax rules can only be applied to an UNLADEN vehicle. As soon as you put a load on it - it can not be classed or taxed as a historic vehicle.

 

If your vehicle tax is incorrect - then welcome to thousands of drivers who have no insurance as your insurance would become void!!!

 

It's a mine field out there as previously said.

 

Getting back to the initial question - Hell - I can't even remember what it was - was it important.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The question was "operating HGV's" so we are still on topic mate.

 

Yes it certainly is a minefield and one that's best left alone and kept under wraps otherwise we would all have to give up our trucks for a Trabant.:shocked:

[Markheliops]

Spotted this item whilst doing some research on the subject.

 

Driving their horsebox at weekends could be virtually impossible for many amateur riders, due to yet more red tape over vehicle legislation. An about-turn and strict ruling from the Vehicle Operator Services Agency (VOSA) bans anyone with a full-time job from driving their HGV lorry at weekends.

 

The latest ruling was given to reader Miles Nicholson last month, and confirmed to H&H. It concerns the rest periods required by law for all drivers of large vehicles over 7.5tonnes (formerly HGV), whether private or professional — and is not only at odds with previous advice, but comes as a shock to UK equestrian organisations.

 

From Horse and Hounds and as I read it - if you hold ANY full time job (whatever it is doing) it could scupper you if you want to drive an HGV during the weekends.

 

Heres the link.

 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/390/278245.html

 

Feel free to make any sense out of it but I wonder if this could cause a problem with our hobby.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

How does that effect what we have been discussing.

[Brooky]

I think also the age limit has gone back down. It used to be 21 or three years minimum with a full driving licence. I think it has now gone back down to 18 years old.

 

Scary but true!!!!

Driver has to have completed initial driver cpc

Really looking forward to taking out 18year olds in a 44 tonner!!!!!

Dont think it wil happen in my outfit

[Tony B]

The whole rigmarole at the moment is over rest! My suggestion, at least with the horseboxes, is an old trick. Stick a matteres in the Luton head and call it a 'camper'. This worked quite happily witha Bedford TK that actually had living accomadation and cooking facilities built into the container. It also carried three horses. Some big camper trucks are basically7.5 tonners so what will happen to those?

[LoggyDriver]

Spotted this item whilst doing some research on the subject.

 

Driving their horsebox at weekends could be virtually impossible for many amateur riders, due to yet more red tape over vehicle legislation. An about-turn and strict ruling from the Vehicle Operator Services Agency (VOSA) bans anyone with a full-time job from driving their HGV lorry at weekends.

 

The latest ruling was given to reader Miles Nicholson last month, and confirmed to H&H. It concerns the rest periods required by law for all drivers of large vehicles over 7.5tonnes (formerly HGV), whether private or professional — and is not only at odds with previous advice, but comes as a shock to UK equestrian organisations.

 

From Horse and Hounds and as I read it - if you hold ANY full time job (whatever it is doing) it could scupper you if you want to drive an HGV during the weekends.

 

Heres the link.

 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/390/278245.html

 

Feel free to make any sense out of it but I wonder if this could cause a problem with our hobby.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

How does that effect what we have been discussing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having just read the artical on this subject this is my take on the matter.

 

Most if not all horseboxes over 7.5 tonnes will require the driver to possess an HGV class 2 (LGV Cat C) as the horsebox will be a post 1960 vehicle. This vehicle will also require an HGV MOT as it would not qualify for exemption under existing rules unless it was pre 1960. It cannot be regarded as anything other than a Goods Vehicle as the Horse would be classed as Goods. As a horse cannot be classed as personal goods under "the carrage of goods for personal use" part of the legislation then this also, I assume, wouldn't apply.

 

To be totally honest I don't think the relevent agencys know their ar*e from their elbow. This legislation would be totally un workable and from what the artical says this is a VOSA "ruling" on the matter and is not a reference from a court case. The only organisation to make a "ruling" would be a court of law. I don't think this would stand up long as it would effect tens of thousands of people enjoying their hard earned weekend fun. Surely the MVT and IMPS etc would have picked up on this before now?

 

Confused, I certainly am.:nut:

[utt61]

Historic vehicles can be laden, but they are unable to carry goods for profit.

 

 

I think the restriction is that they cannot be used to carry goods in connection with any trade or business, which is not quite the same thing as the above.

[utt61]

I have just looked at the H&H article and various other transport-related stuff on their website (such as the H&H "plain English" guide to transport law) and there is much that appears to fly in the face of established fact. For example:-

 

* the statement that "LGV" officially stands for "Long Goods Vehicle" (trivial, admittedly, but sets a standard).

 

* the assertion that if you earn your living from riding horses at events, and in order to do this you drive the horses to the event in a horse box, you are a "professional" and therefore need a Driver CPC.

 

It is my understanding based on information from many sources, that you only require the CPC if you are a professional driver, ie it is the driving which provides your principal income. In this case, you would be a professional rider and the driving is incidental to that, therefore no CPC is required. If however you were employed specifically to drive a horsebox to events and earned your living from doing this, then you would need a CPC.

 

I don't think I will pay much attention to H&H. Perhaps they know more about horses than driving.

 

 

(Please note that I am not a lawyer - you are advised not to take my advice about anything without researching it yourself and making a balnced decision!)

[Tony B]

Actually the info comes from BHS, and there is a lot of knowledge concerning vehicles in the Society. The problem is as those of us with 'Aquired' rights decline. Bear i n mind you also need a aditonal E entilment to tow a horse box now. Most are around 915 kg unladen.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Tony B

[radiomike7]

Actually the info comes from BHS, and there is a lot of knowledge concerning vehicles in the Society. The problem is as those of us with 'Aquired' rights decline. Bear i n mind you also need a aditonal E entilment to tow a horse box now. Most are around 915 kg unladen.

 

If your tow vehicle happens to be a 11/12 seat LWB Lendraver you will also need a minibus test. You might get away with with leaving the rear seats at home though.

[antar]

I once got pulled into a vosa checkpoint on a Tuesday morning after pulling out of Stonleigh town and country festival with my then Leyland Marathon and King low loader trailer loaded with MK3 ANTAR. This was taxed as PRIVATE HGV and it had a tacho fitted but there was no chart in. VOSA man climbed up at passenger side and asked me to take out the chart for him to check to which I replied that there wasn't one in ! That little glint came in his eye as he was thinking he had got me ! I then asked him to examine the tax disc, which he did, saying that he had never heard of that category. I explained that I owned the whole outfit including the load on the back and that it was only ever used to move my own show vehicles, it was plated and tested as well as the trailer and that there was no requirement to have a tacho chart in. Said vosa man climbed down went and found the traffic policeman who was waving in the vehicles they had a discussion for about 5 minutes before he returned and asked if I minded if he had a look round my vehicle.

 

He then after a few minutes returned and said that he would have to issue a GV9 due to a cut in a tyre sidewall. GV9 was issued, I was told that I was not to move the vehicle until the tyre was replaced. I climbed out had a look at which tyre had the cut, (nearly needed a magnyfying glass to see it) weighed up the situation.

 

I then pulled out one of my 2 spares from under the ANTAR, blocked the trailer with timbers, losened the wheel nuts and lifted the tag axle on its air bag swapped the wheel, tightened everything up dropped the axle, all told about 15 minutes. I then went and found the vosa man again and told him it was done and asked what he was going to do with the GV9.

 

He gave a full clearance on the GV9 and off I went. On returning home and later talking to a friend of mine who is a traffic examiner he said that it was completely unheard of for a traffic examiner to give a full clearance on the roadside, that every GV9 issued had to have clearance at a test centre.

 

Just goes to show that they don't even know whats legal so what hope have we ?

[Tony B]

If your tow vehicle happens to be a 11/12 seat LWB Lendraver you will also need a minibus test. You might get away with with leaving the rear seats at home though.

 

Yes a problem I've come across. My son has the 'new' licence, I have the 'ancient' one. The 12 seat 10 seat Land Rover story was playing with the rules at the time. How come a 109 is a 'twelve' seat, but a 110 is a 'ten' seat? Actually to tow you will need D + E PCV plus trailer entitilment.

[Stone]

Here's a simple question that I suspect has hidden depths...:

 

The company I work for own a Bedford MJ with box body and specialist kit mounted on the bed. The box body is fitted as an experimental lab and filled with computers and so on. We don't have to have an MOT under V112G exemption 14 ('Vehicles constructed or adapted for, and used primarily for the purpose of carrying equipment permanently fixed to the vehicle, which equipment is used for[...]experimental laboratory purposes'). We don't have to have a tachograph (VOSA Tachograph declaration of exemption, 'Vehicle used by radio or television services or for the detection of radio or television transmitters or receivers') and our drivers don't need a CPC as they're not hauling goods and driving isn't the main purpose of their occupation.

 

Do we need an O Licence? My hunch is not, as per the C&U Regs it's technically not a goods vehicle due to the equipment fixed 'permanently or semipermanently' to it. VOSA are no help as usual Does that sound reasonable?

 

Stone

Edited March 12, 2010 by Marmite!!

[Tony B]

Hi Stone. She's finally up and running then? Both Onan's are working well.

[Stone]

Yeah, we just got our 'proper' genny. 20kW and 900kg :cool2:

 

Stone

[Tony B]

As opposed to 3.5 kw and hernia! :-D Any chnace of a picture?

[Stone]

I'll drop you a PM before we get told off :nono:

[Tony B]

He did! Just so he could brag about his shiny new Eltrikerycal toy! :banghead: