billh35

Some background information here -  https://www.rafmtd.co.uk/mtcoys/mtcoys.html

In his excellent book "The British Bus in the Second World War" John Howie (who is a member of this site) writes on Page 34: "The RAF had 700 buses of their own plus 350 on hire" in December 1941. How were these organised and allocated. Is there anywhere I can find out more information on these vehicles?

Does anyone have a copy of The National Archives, AIR 2/5379, RAF Motor Transport Companies: Report by ACM Sir Hugh Dowding (G.S. 12416), S.D.155/1940 (717-718) – Formation of M.T. Companies dated 13 July 1940

On 2/27/2010 at 7:52 PM, garys39 said:

Some more truck shots, the bus was taking the chaps to the Mohne dam, of which there are several shots, anybody recognise what type of bus it is ?

 

The bus is almost certainly a UK built AEC - more research to follow to identify it. It was very unusual to find a UK coach being used since troop movements from around 1942/3 by the RASC were undertaken by 4x4 Bedford QLTs. 

Your comments about paint are why this image was such a surprise. 

There were Strachans bodied SBs which appeared in both "fake" Ulsterbus colours and in "civilian" colours but I don't remember seeing any VAS's at all. I worked at Ulsterbus at the time so was very conscious of what was going on especially when debranded Ulsterbus vehicles began to be used to merge in even closer. Ulsterbus even ran a covert driving school to train RCT drivers. The vehicle destroyed at Ballygawley was an Ulsterbus vehicle with an RCT driver. 

I have never been able to ascertain how many buses the MoD had in N.I. during Operation Banner as all the local enthusiasts knew to ignore military or disguised vehicles - even having notes of their often changing registrations would have ended an enthusiast in jail under the PoTA. Just before Ballygawley Ulsterbus was supplying second hand vehicles which had been bought in to be used by RCT - indeed some of these were already in use but were quickly returned to Ulsterbus. 

Definetly not a Bristol LH or RE - there weren't any in Northern Ireland and it's not an Ulsterbus Bristol.

I am more inclined to believe it is a Strachans bodied Bedford VAS but whose would that have been? The stripe suggests possibly RAF? 

I have literally just found this image of an ex MoD VAS with a traveller as a caravan and the rear end looks the same. Funny but I don't remember VAS's being used in N.I. at all. 

Can anyone identify what type of bus this is? Doesn't appear to be your standard MoD vehicle as it doesn't have ambulance rear doors? It's not an Ulsterbus vehicle either....

Thoughts and opinions appreciated. (Particularly from any RCT personnel involved in Op Banner)

I think I accidentally captured the same vehicle (although it may be a different one because of the windscreen) at Portrush on a summer Saturday. The civilian number plates were changed regularly to fool the terrorists.

The Ulsterbus Leyland Leopard was on a civilian private hire. 

Can anyone tell me what the number of RCT service coaches was in Northern Ireland during Operation Banner would have been?

 These were supplemented by vehicles operated on a private hire basis from Ulsterbus but there were a number of Strachans and Marshall bodied Bedford SB's in use in a variety of liveries included "Ulsterbus look-a-like" liveries. There were further ex-Ulsterbus vehicles operated with military drivers. Ulsterbus operated a covert driving school to train RCT drivers to drive PSV vehicles. I have been able to document these fairly accurately but want to complete the picture so to speak. 

Some more vehicles I have found images of in Northern Ireland but I am not sure of their units? I am attaching the photos......there seems to be two different units...

The Germans were experiencing a massive vehicle shortage so many of the vehicles abandoned were repaired and pressed into service across the German forces...... former British RHD buses have been found in Norway and Russia. It seems the Germans also paid for 1,000 buses seized in Belgium and Holland and taken elsewhere. 

Does anyone have this book? Does it show any captured coaches being re-used?

The impressed coaches which this form related to were replaced by Bedford QLT (Troop carrying) trucks from 1941 onwards. They were capable of off-road use which the impressed coaches weren't. So by the time the 1943 list of forms was prepared, no more vehicles were being impressed and the form was no longer used.

I am now looking to see if I can find where the centralised records for impressed coaches would have been held ie. Army, Ministry of War Transport, War Office? 

I am also not aware if the impressment took place centrally or whether each service impressed its' own vehicles.

On 9th October 1942 "Commercial Motor" magazine reported:

"

Parliamentary question by Major Lyons, who sought details of the number's of motor coaches from all services lying redundant or derelict at depots throughout the country, or the proportion that had had the tyres removed or had been jacked up, Sir Andrew Duncan, Minister of Supply, stated last week that, in addition to 206 coaches returned to operators and 157 others offered to their former owners, 658 coaches notified by Service Departments for disposal had been transferred to other Departments or broken down for spares.

Of the 616 remaining, many had only recently become available for disposal. In some cages it had not yet been possible to identify the former owners from the impressment records, and the Ministry of War Transport was considering whether, after expiration of a limited period, the vehicles should be offeted to approved operators. Under this arrangement the vehicles would soon be disposed of."

This would suggest that records had been centralised somewhere in order to produce these statistics. From this it would appear that 1,637 coaches and buses had been impressed across all services. From what I have seen of the W.D. number listings, it is virtually impossible to distinguish bus/coaches from lorries as the W.D. numbers seem to total 3,000+ vehicles.

I can't help thinking there is a list somewhere which lists W.D. numbers against civilian numbers.

The vehicles which were impressed using this form were impressed in 1940. As you can see they link the civilian identity of a vehicle to it's War Department number.

These forms were completed by Impressing Officers when vehicles were being collected and link a vehicle's civilian identity to its' W.D. number.

Does anyone know what became of these forms, where these records were held and do they still exist in Archives?

Doesn't ring true this. Some years ago during Exercise Purple Warrior in south west Scotland, various items of military equipment were accidentally "mis-laid" and all hell broke lose. Dumfries & Galloway Police reported to RMP that their "lost property" at the end of the exercise included a Series III lwb Army Land Rover - how could any army forget a Land Rover and in a lay-by on the "old" A75 which was full of what appeared to be  bulk loaded ammunition boxes which was then under Police guard. I can only imagine the repercussions of this!

I had something similar happen in Belfast where I  was running a coaching operation. As a nationalised operator we provided all coaching to RCT for troop movements during Operation Banner. One of my drivers returned from a job and on checking his vehicle, quickly closed and secured it and came running to my office. He took me to the vehicle and there in the parcel rack were 4 SLRs. We quickly locked the vehicle up and a quick call to RCT brought the somewhat unexpected response of: "Tell your driver just to bring them back up to Thiepval Barracks." I immediately responded: "No way, you better send someone to collect them!" Within 3 minutes there was a Gazelle overhead our depot and the RUC had sealed off our bus station and depot. Minutes later 321 EOD arrived with their escorts. The ATO wanted to know how we had "acquired" these weapons and then went and checked them. As he was doing so the RMP arrived and were not happy bunnies! I was able to persuade the ATO that the vehicle had been secure and that I had checked for command wires etc. (after all Werner Heubeck was my boss) and they were safe. So he didn't carry out a controlled explosion. RMP bagged and removed the weapons and we knew there were four people who were going to be in big trouble! 

Why have all the images disappeared?

That's excellent - especially the TAC list supplied by Morris C8 which will make identifying RASC vehicles easier.

I expect it to be RASC but I thought the markings may denote which MCC they belonged to - which they don't and there is no military number on it....

I have no idea. The are no other numbers on this vehicle......

There was a lot of interchanging of parts between Leyland bus and truck chassis. Which model of Tiger is it - a TS6 or TS8?

Chances are some of the older spares places still carry stock for some parts. Charles Hurst in Belfast were able to supply parts for a 1934 TS6 as late as 1982!

Shown on the front of what is believed to be a RASC Motor Coach Company Dennis Lancet - does this mean it was the 9th Motor Coach Company? 500 troop?

I found these images of two buses used as generators at what is now Army HQ, Lisburn. I know nothing of the vehicle's identity. The photographs were taken on 15th September 1942. The vehicles are parked back to back - one has a roof rack and one doesn't.

So how many Bedford OWB coaches did the RAF operate?

Were these dumping into the Beaufort Dyke?