edinmass

Agreed with the above. I don’t like to speak out of turn, but I could easily cut that race out with no damage to anything else. You need an experienced under car mechanic that is over fifty years old. They will have the needed skill. Back in the day we would cut off nuts off ball joints without damaging the threads or overheating the joint.......today skilled mechanics that have hundreds of hours of using a torch are hard to find. I expect I could have that done in under fifteen minutes. I still like the advise I gave a while back........an air chisel and heat the race glowing red......it will zip right off. Cutting it while fairly easy will blow slag and cause a possible small grease fire. I wish I could fly over and give you gents a hand.......Best, Ed. Off topic, but semi Peerless related........I purchased another White. Made right down the road from the Peerless factory in Cleveland . It’s a 1915 with 82 horsepower........quite the speedy machine. You need to find a WWI White to restore, they built well over 12,000 units. 👍

Steve, I would now use a torch to heat the race red hot, and spray water on it to cool it down, Repeat two or three times, then heat it red and use an air chisel to rotate it and knock it loose..........you need to be careful not to slip with the air tool.

Steve, was the wheel turning before you tried to pull it? Is it hung up on the brake shoes? Only two times have I been unable to pull a wheel......... and we had to cut them off......the choice is the housing, the drum, and possibly the shaft. I understand preservation of any and all parts at all costs. That said, you have several spare rears correct? You could put a lot of heat on it, just wrap the wood with rags and wet them........and then drench it after it moves...or stays stuck. You could also use an air hammer on the hydraulic puller to shock it while under maximum load.......often times a GOOD hammer will jar it loose.....don't use a cheap unit........if the drum is causing the thing to be stuck you are going to be in trouble......if it's just the front race heat and shock should pull it.......it's also possible the bearing is spun on the shaft and now two parts are one........in the end the wheels are more valuable than a spare rear end.........then there is the old trick of heating the bearing up to cherry red and pouring/spraying liquid freon on the axel shaft..........not very eco friendly but it will usually make the thing part ways.........

Merry Christmas.......from across the pond. Found this and had to share........

Steve.....you could buy the Pierce, and use it as a tow truck to get the Peerless back home in style..........functional and convenient! 🤔 FYI- do you know why divorce is so expensive? Because it’s worth it! Back to trucks.

Tim and Tony, this has just become available in the states........the restoration would be much too easy for you.......But it would make you the owners of two of the three P's! And the BEST one of the three! (I'm a multiple Pierce Arrow owner.)👍

Back here in the states many clubs have an award given each year for “The most heroic Restoration.” The Gosling’s work would put all of the past winners to shame! As a matter of fact, they would probably be sent into Hospital for an (psychological) evaluation just for making the initial purchase of their lorry projects! They are true craftsmen and stewards of history. Both their vehicles and this thread of the restorations will forever be looked upon by others taking up the challenge of preserving history for all others that follow. It shows every long journey begins with the first step........and most importantly, having the character and perseverance to see the thing through. I can't compliment them enough. “Jolly good show!” Best, Ed.

Tony, not only is it literally true........recently I needed to make an entire water pump for a fantastic American auto.........a seven figure car. The car is what legends are made of..........and the owner asked me “how much to make that pump” I gave him a number and a time frame........he almost passed out............and he asked can I get it done in 60 days. I said sure.....triple to quadruple the money. He started talking to himself. I referred him to all your threads from your restorations. I explained him the inverse relationship between time and money when making nonexistent parts. He was talking to himself for weeks. We got the pump done in 71 days.......all in. From nothing to driving. The actual cost was 25 percent of what I quoted as a worst case scenario. We ended up with two pumps.....one for the shelf. We figured to make an extra was reasonable in the event we screwed up the castings. He was impressed with your restoration achievements..........and thinks all of us are nuts! Personally, I like being crazy......I’m pretty good at it!👍

Tony, I have been watching your work for years, and thoroughly enjoyed it all. Every time I am working on a car and get discouraged I just go back to the first few pages of the Thorny and I say to myself.......my problem isn't too bad!👍

After fifty years in the hobby, and this week would have been fifty years since my first Hershey meet.......I can tell you Peerless stuff has been non existent since WWII. Many of the early truck chassis have been made into speedsters. (Repowered with bigger engines.)I have seen a handful of V-8 Peerless cars from the 1915-1920 era........EVERY ONE was cut down into a speedster. Peerless was an early “must have” for many collections and museums. They simply just don’t get out often. Many people are afraid to drive things that parts are non existent. Now many of the “best” Peerless cars are stuck in museums and never run, never mind getting out to a show. Here in the states, there are a few HUGE early Napier cars...........I have a few friends with them, and in forty years I have never seen one run. It’s a shame........a vehicle that is historically important and it’s a static trophy in a garage. Recently I was at a top five car collection in the world. A new purchase was being delivered, and I asked the new owner if he was going to drive it. As they were pulling it into the museum garage he said to me.......”it will probably never run again”. Very sad.......I actually twisted his arm and had him let me go for a ride before it was parked. The last half mile I tossed his mechanic out of the drivers seat and drove it the three or four blocks back to the shop. He looked at me funny and said “why did you want to drive it so bad?”. Sad some people are collectors and others are drivers. Regardless of what any machine costs......it’s was made to be used. Art is for hanging on the walls, cars are for the open road. Peerless will always be knows as the most obscure of the “Three P’s” as we refer to them here. I last worked on a 1915 touring car.........it was the last of the “T head” cars before they went to the off the shelf V-8 they purchased from a supplier.........and thus the Peerless slide had begun from a fantastic hand crafted masterpiece to just another assembled car. They never even made money on their past reputation as things went downhill. Ed PS- If you ever find parts in the states you need, contact me and I will be happy to help. We have trucks criss crossing the country going to and from shows, as well as our “road trips” we do........we drive around with an empty trailer trying to spend money on things most people just don’t understand. We can handle large and heavy items easily......👍 The Peerless below is a 1912 13.5 liter 90 horse power car. It’s on a Packard chassis, as the engine was found sitting in the dirt in a Detroit junk yard in 1946. It’s now in a friends collection, and only one of two pre WW1 Peerless cars active in the states right now. It’s a fantastic ride!

When asking about Peerless truck survival I can only make an educated guess.........car history is my strong point, trucks not so much. After the first war, Peerless was at best 30 percent of the company it was during the conflict. Also, the “American” attitude of vehicles was much different than the rest of the globe. We didn’t repurpose vehicles like many other countries........also, with the regional aspect of sales and service, people were much ,more likely to keep and save local equipment. There are very few WWI trucks of any brand..........very few in the states. I see FWD most often from the war time era. I get around to shows, events, and collections more than you can imagine. You just don’t see the stuff. I think the reason is three fold. WWII scrap drives ate up 99 percent of the early cars and trucks. I know people who were buying cars in 1942 during the scrap drives.....paying 15 dollars for a Stanley Steamer that still ran.(Family member now long passed.) American roads were much better than the rest of the world, and early trucks were slow.......so they literally couldn’t keep up with the “modern world” in the US in the mid 30’s. So off to the scrapper they went. Finally Peerless fell off a cliff post WWI, it was a local car manufacturer in Cleveland Ohio........parts would have been difficult, and the company was basically gone in 1928......and lingered to 1931. Why deal with an old, obsolete truck, when there were newer units easier to service for little money. What happened in the states is much different than the rest of the globe. More later on which cars and truck were looked upon more favorably than the others. Ed.

Now....the truck question of Packard, Pierce Arrow, Peerless, and Locomobile ..........The war had a great effect on all the companies.......some positive, and much more negative. First thing to remember is all the previous companies listed were VERY high end automobile manufactures..........the sales prices of the cars were much more than the cost of three or four homes......they were that expensive. Production at all of them was rather low........certain engine/chassis combinanations were often in the single or low double digits. Around 1915 lots of changes began in the states with car manufacturing. Packard and Pierce had always made trucks.....but they tended to be sold locally to the plant that manufactured them.....car and truck sales were most often a regional product.......they didn't often travel far from where they were built. The west was still mostly open country, with little population. The East coast, and Chicago were big agricultural and manufacturing hot spots. Basicly when the war started in Europe.......the companies realized they could make hundreds and even thousands of sales to government contracts.......guaranteed high profit and high volume and there was no question of getting paid. Truck production cut in very heavily to the car manufacturing.......White gave up on cars altogether. Peerless, Packard, Pierce, and Loco did build a small handful of cars and kept them in production, but they were interested in making money. Right after the war we had the depression of 1921. So car sales were not high on anyones requirements. By the time everything was sorted out Peerless was a shell of what it once was....and started using off the shelf engines from suppliers instead of making their own units. They went from a super high end car to middle of the market very quickly...and they never recovered. The Great Depression finished them off. Loco became a company that had troubbles and the stock market boys tossed it around and killed it.......it really was never a viable company after WW1. Pierce made it out of 1922 with two different car lines.....but they were rather lower quaility than what had came before. They got it back together again by 1928 and were off to the races, until they died a slow death from the depression, closing in 1938. Packard came out of the war truck production in good shape and hit the road running with a great line up of cars......production increased in huge numbers, and they became the dominant player in high end cars in the states.......often making five times more cars than all the other high end makers combined. also....add in that the US started income taxes for the first time in it's history to pay for the war......and many people were just didn't have the extra income to buy great and expensive cars. At the same time, car prices were dropping........it was a crossroads of manufacturing, economic upheaval, political changes....... many things changed how Americans made and purchased cars.......automobile financing came into vogue in 1924. So, now some opinions as to the companies and their cars...... Peerless came out with a V-8 in 1915 that someone else designed and built them.(Northway) It was the beginning of the end for them in quality and prestige. By 1922 when car production began, they were much more in the "Buick" lower end of the market segment. They just slowly faded away. Pierce Arrow had it's major success from 1904 to 1919 in cars. Everything built afterwards was a great product, but no where near what was built before the war. I have owned countless Pierce Arrow cars.........and they were always comperiable to Packard in fit, finish, and quality. Cars became much less expensive after the war, and thus they were more of a "mass produced" high end product. Packard was the strong man of the high end car industry......can't be denied. The made a fantastic product, and in numbers that crushed everyone else numbers. The had a great dealer network, which also was a huge reason for their success. Bad planning during WWII is what caused their failure after the second war.......old guys smoking cigars looking back at the past.......and poof, they were gone. Locomobile was always a great car, and a company that had money and production issues. The never made many cars, and seemed to cater to the wealthiest of clients. Compared to the three above, they really were just a footnote in history. It was their excess manufcturing capacity that allowed them to make vehicles for the first war. All the above is a quick and short explanation of what happened. All of them made good products. They found it hard to keep up with modern manufacturing techniques. Best, Ed

I'll answer Tony's question first.Like most things, I found it by accident. Over at the AACA Club Website there is an extensive post about 30 pages long in only 8 weeks. It covers in detail how I found it, and what it required to make it run. Like your truck restoration posts, it can take a while to read it all...but it's worth the effort. The post at the AACA is in the general interest category, and the title is "The phone rang.......and the next car adventure starts. You can also search for it under my posting name...."edinmass". Be sure, the next time I am in the UK, I will stop to see you and your collection. We were planning on three weeks in June this year to visit, but the Covid 19 put a fast stop to that. Maybe next year. I very much enjoy the family restoration projects you all take on........a great way to spend time with ones loved ones, and save history at the same time. Best, Ed

Nothing like a 37 inch tire to smooth out the bumpy roads......while it’s a bit faster than a war lorry, it will easily do 70 mph, it’s about the same size! Peerless car production lasted until 1931.........then they became a brewery and made Black Label Beer. They are still in business. Here is one of the last cars they built....a 1929 Peerless eight. I had the opportunity to work on it when they had a few issues. Now......back to the trucks.👍 a

Hi all, I occasionally chime in here, and also occasionally bring a car over from the states to drive through the Cotswolds, so I though I would share my new adventure, as it’s in the family of WW1 truck history. Recently I uncovered and purchased a 1917 White Motor Car, from the same company that built White Motor Trucks. In mid 1917 the company stopped building cars, and began truck production for the war. They made lots of parts and assemblies for the Liberty Truck, as well as their own trucks for the US Government. They never built cars after the Great War, and the car below is the “newest and possibly one of the last fifty they ever built. It’s the last of its kind. I found it in the Blue Ridge Mountains in the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia. It was last run in 1940. It has 11,223 miles on it. Except for tires and radiator hoses, it is how it left the factory. White Motor Company went on to make most of the WWII American M3 Halftracks, among many other military vehicles. Production for White ended in the early 2000’s. At one time they made more trucks than any other company in the USA. They became part of Studebaker for a short time in the 30’s. Anyways, after 81 years we now have it running. The finish on the car is the original 1917 varnish.....before lacquer. It’s quite a machine, costing 5000. US at the time, much more than Cadillac’s, Packards, Pierce Arrows, and many others. Photo of the car taken the first day it ran in 81 years. It shall remain in its current condition and will be used, enjoyed, and displayed for others to enjoy. So, while not a Peerless.........it certainly is a close cousin! They were both built in a Cleveland Ohio......probably in the same year. It’s a small world. Hope you enjoy the photos of the car. Also, a photo of the actual car in the New York Auto Show........in the Astor Hotel.........Mr. Astor, went down with the Titanic. FYI- It’s a custom aluminum body, by Ruby Carriage Builders. It has a Dual Valve engine.....four valves per cylinder. 75 Horsepower. Four speed, 140 inch chassis, and it stands 7 feet 9 inches tall. I thoroughly enjoy the restoration blogs here, and while I don’t comment too often, many of us Yankees watch with fascination at the work being done. Bravo to all here.........brothers on the other side of the pond!

Toe in should be 1/8 to 1/4 positive or “toe in”, castor can be adjusted by shims......about one half degree positive would be ideal. It was probably 2.5 when new, but today’s roads will allow for less. Project is coming along nicely.

Tank the tank off, plug all the holes except one, and fill the tank with a few pounds of dry ice. Let stand for two hours, keeping the open hole on the “top”, dry ice is pure co2, and will constantly replace itself while you are soldering the tank. It’s the only safe way short of a continuous flow of co2 or argon while doing the job. It’s cheap and easy..........👍

I thought it was time to make this post, as Steve, Tim, and Tony are too modest to do it. Incredible is the only correct description of their accomplishment. It’s beyond any other words that I can come up with. Decades of searching, labor, scholarship, and perseverance. Congratulations gentlemen, you deserve the Nobel Prize of vehicle restoration. Thank you for many hours of entertainment. You bring much joy and happiness to many people following your exploits!

Steve, spoke to an old time engine shop and Babbitt guy today, we spoke of your problem, and he commented your ring gap should be .020 , I think he is about right. I too have finished vehicles that don’t get driven much. A made a new rule, If I don’t drive it twice a year, I sell it. More than 75 percent of my stuff went down the road......which was fine. Currently I have 17 regularly exercised pre war exotic cars kept in top running condition. It’s just about a full time job. After two years, today I managed to clean and wash my every day Ford Focus. It looks much better! Ed

Steve, I think you are on the right track. I would replace ALL the rings. I would change the oil before start up. I would also change the oil again after an hours running in. I would use a straight ten weight for the first two changes, and then go to a straight thirty after that. Once the lorry has a few hundred miles on it I would switch over to a 100 percent synthetic. If you choose not to run anti freeze, use distilled water with cutting oil in it. Prevents rust, lubricates the water pump, and if it leaks or overheats it cleans up with a garden hose. I take it there is no chance for a freeze where you live........if there is a chance then obviously anti freeze is required. Looking forward to seeing her back on the road........and looking forward to the next updat! Ed PS- a magnetic drain plug would also be a good idea.......I would devise a way to install a few magnets in the oil pan as well, even if you can’t get to them often, they can be a big help.

I was more intrested in a before and after number after expanding the ring gaps and opening up the bore. It would have read low on the two holes with the stuck rings and let them know before disassembly how many cylinders had problems. Compression tests and leak down tests can be helpful in understanding ring seal. Also it could identify unknown valve sealing issues. It’s an easy test that’s done in a few minutes. On the Rolls I can shut down the car with a charge in the cylinder and come back an hour later, swing the distributor and get it to fire thus giving what we call a “free start” without touching the starter. Fun to do at shows and a great indication of a good engine. All just for fun. That one hole without soot on top of the piston should be investigated, it may mean a manifold vacuum leak or a poorly sealing exhaust valve, or ignition problem on that one. A cylinder balance power Check while running would help identify any loss of power if there was any. It may also be no problem.........worth checking out. Steve asked how I found this thread and I didn’t answer. Back in the early seventies a family member had a WW I Renault tank that I use to play on. They had it out in the front yard as a lawn ornament. As I’m sure they are quite rare, I was attempting to locate it for possible purchase. Ended up chasing down a Stewart and a Sherman. I built my garage attached to my house to handle the Sherman, but never managed to land one that was in my condition and price range. Still want to add a WW II tracked toy to the collection. Most likely something lighter as I dont want to own a tractor trailer to go to the shows.

Don’t forget to open up the ring gap. .008 will probably be ok, but rather than take a chance to do it twice I would go just a bit bigger. Did you ever take a compression test before disassembly?

Well, it’s not too difficult to fix. Replace ALL of the rings, hone ALL the cylinders, .009 minimum. On such a low use vehicle, and low speed engine I think I would go to .010 or .011 for ease and safety. Remember you have NOT run that engine hard yet, just for a short time at idle or above, under maximum load for longer than thirty minutes I think you need more clearance. Just .003 isn’t enough in my opinion. I spent the last week at Lake Como for the Concours D’ Elegance with our 7.8 Litre Rolls Phantom II, with a 4.25 inch bore six cylinder engine. The motor was built “tight” and we had the cast iron pistons at .010, while it runs and starts fine, with everything new including the radiator and all internal parts and bearings, it’s still running just a bit warm if we idle it for twenty minutes at a standstill in any temp over 20c. I’m sure it will be fine in a few hundred more miles. I would change the oil on the Thorny two or three times, right away after you reassemble it. I would recommend a five weight oil for the first two changes, then I would go to a straight 30 or 40. After five hundred miles of running I would then go to 100 percent synthetic. Photo enclosed of the 7.8 Litre P II with me in front of it yesterday at Como. You gentlemen do great work, and I look forward to visiting you with a car to take you for a ride in the future! My best, Ed

Steve, The earliest car we have serviced is 1897, and the newest is a current Top Fuel (nitromethane) dragster, so we have been all over the board when it comes to pistons, piston troubles, and attempted solutions. Most of what we have is 3.5 inch bore plus or minus, but we have done six inch down to just over two inch. My first paying job as a teenager was running a boreing bar machine after school and weekends. It’s best to just cover your current situation here to keep things short, and I will address what I think I would do. I’m not sure it will be very helpful, but I will try. 99 percent of the time we use custom pistons made for a application that the piston manufactures make all the decisions. We learned over time when we got in the middle of the engineering and decision making we ended up with problems! You have many issues in play on your Thorny, new sleeves, modern fuel, possible jetting issues, home made pistons, unknown alloy, etc. In the current situation I would do a tear down of the engine before I made any decisions. I expect that I would probably increase ring gap, and depending on what you find, I would tend to leave the pistons alone and hone the cylinders. I’m quite sure your problem won’t run in and solve itself. I understand and respect the reason you made you own pistons.........it’s an impressive accomplishment and very few people I know have done it. The question now is, keep what you have and attempt to fix it..........and you may or may not be successful on the first try. I understand the challenge of getting it right after all you have done on the vehicle. I would tend to order modern pistons, as you know the bore and stroke, and have an old piston sample, it would be easy to just order a set of new modern pistons, drop them in and forget it. BUT after following along with you for years on both of you trucks, I’m sure you much rather deal with the problem and finish the job you started. Cam ground pistons were the norm for years, but if one doesn’t have access to a machine I think you can still move forward. As the engine turns quite slow, I think you can solve most of your problems by opening up the ring gap and piston clearance. I would go to .009 or .010 on the piston clearance. I would set the ring gap at .016 on the compression rings. You can turn them and taper them as mentioned in you post similar to what you friend mentioned on the Ford T, and I don’t think think you will risk anything. With such a low compression ratio, leak down and blow by won’t be an issue. Holding things tight on this particular job isn’t too your advantage. If you build it loose, the only downside will be piston slap when cold. Run the fuel mixture rich, and add as much timing as you can. Lean mixtures make the motor run hot, and can burn valves, melt pistons, and crack rings. Does the thorny have a thermostat? Most engines ran at 140 before the 1920’s, and went to 160 by the mid 1930’s. Also, with today’s modern fuel you want to run a hotter spark plug if available. We use a five gas exhaust analyzer when we set up the carb and ignition. I’m looking forward to see the pistons and cylinders when you take it down. Also, have you done a compression check on the engine yet? It’s a worthwhile exercise to see what they are wet and dry across the board. I’m sure others here will chime in. I look forward to their experiences and responses. Ed.

I looked over the thread and couldn’t find what you used for piston clearance. A minimum for this application should be .007 and a max of .010 . I wonder if the liners are causing a heat transfer problem with the block? Or possibly the home made pistons and material could also be an additional unknown as far as expansion goes. After many years in the hobby we have learned to run an engine on a stand or dyno for several hours before installing it. I know you gentlemen are pressed for room and are working on a time as available schedual, and it would not have been practicle for you to run it out of the truck. With the amount of service the truck will ever see, and modern oils having made great strides from when the truck was new, I would set up the piston as loose as you dare. You may get some cold start up slap, but once warm it should run quiet. On our cars with a six inch bore we run .012 and they have worked out fine. Once the motor is properly broken in, you can switch over to 100 percent synthetic motor oil. That way there will never be a scoring issue or oil failure with major damage. Depending on cost and time, maybe a modern set of pistons with modern ring packages would be worth considering. You could have them made so you only need to do a light hone and reassemble. The good news is the top end comes apart relatively easily. You have done a great job on this truck. I wouldn’t call it a restoration, I would call it a resurrection! Job well done! The dedication your family has saving our history is truly inspiring.