43rdrecce

I worked as an advertising and publishing illustrator for about 15 years, often in the military and historical field. Now work in music production and management. My partner Sophie has her fourth album released in late Feb this year. We co-wrote all the songs and arrangements together.

Have a listen here www.sophiegarner.com The day-job/function band is here www.the-new-breed.co.uk

Pleased to say she likes MVs especially the Daimler......

Cheers

Paul

Thanks. You could be right. Here's a photo of the set I put together years back. Top left is one of the embroidered type as comparison.

Not sure when these woven ones date from. Also note the housewife I'd stored them in! I seem to remember someone asking about post war sewing kits. This one from 1955 has a rubberised lining so may have been a jungle issue. Otherwise very similar in dimensions to the WW2 effort. Also has the khaki angola piece for the needles.

Cheers

Paul

Mention has been made of the small square embroidered rank chevrons. Does anyone know when the woven type was introduced? These are jacquard woven ie flat not raised embroidery. A well known term for this type of weaving is 'BeVo' as the Germans used it extensively in WW2 on cost grounds.

The problem with the woven type was that they required the edges to be turned over before stitching to the uniform. This I remember resulted in some decidedly dodgy looking efforts at sewing! At least the embroidered type had a raised stitched edge.

Anyone know when they came in? Have a full set somewhere which I acquired around 1982 and have been boxed up ever since. They obviously pre date 82.

Cheers

Paul

Maurice,

The Daimler AC also had a grey engine. Looking at assembly line photos it seems that initially at least, the gearboxes were not painted. Some engine ancillaries were black, and this is confirmed by looking at NOS parts which seem to have been supplied in a black enamel finish.

In addition the engine serial number was stencilled in black on the block. In the case of the Daimler AC this was on the lower NS of the block, ie radiator end. As Richard has said some stencilling was also applied to the rocker covers.

Engine compartment was at assembly in body colour, whatever camouflage shade was in use at the time.

Probably none of this survived the first rebuild and a paintbrush wielding Tommy though I doubt very much was done in wartime. Post war bling is another matter of course!

Regards

Paul

Ooops don't know what happened then. Don't post on a phone....Steve I should have included a quote from Unionjack it was that post I was answering.

KD is a confusing subject up to the end of WW1 as there were multiple pattern from 1896 onwards ie Boer War to end of WW1. From 1921 things get clearer until the patterns were reorganised when the 'WW2' patterns came along. I have a late 1930s Som LI KD suit which has a dressing pocket on the shorts. This is an Indian made item but reflecting the latest Battledress style.

Merry Christmas!

Cheers

Paul

Hi Steve,

Sorry Steve I should have incl

No, with KD it's a 'frock' the term tunic was not used at that period. Service Dress was always a 'Jacket' this is easily confirmed by looking at any set of pre war dress regs. Not sure how you've identified it as 1930s. The pattern shown was sealed in 1921 and was not subsequently changed.

Cheers

Paul

Mark,

It's a post WW1 Indian manufactured example. It is not a 1902 pattern frock however. Both the pattern and colour had been revised several times since the 1902 pattern had been introduced. The Indian made frocks are identified by the rectangular pocket flaps. None of the UK factory made examples had this style of pocket flaps and instead had pointed flaps.

The original 1902 pattern frock had a lot more shaping on the body and was quite close fitting in shape. The example shown is a modified version which incorporates some of the features of the WW1 simplified frock pattern. A true 1902 pattern would not have had the large size dressing pocket shown here. These were modified when the First Field Dressing was increased in size (a second dressing was added for entry and exit wounds) around 1906-1908 but seem to have taken some time to appear. I have a serge SD jacket made around 1911 which still has the smaller dressing pocket fitted. Several items of kit were modified in the period between 1906-1908.

The other thing that muddies the water with Early KD is the availability of bazaar made items. These were often hybrids of British issue and Indian Army made items. The Indian made items were usually a paler shade of KD however. This Indian shade, slightly paler and greener than British made cloth was eventually adopted for general use in around 1921-23. As with all periods older stocks of cloth were used up first and it is possible to find oddities and variations.

I hope this is of interest.

Cheers

Paul

Avoid like the plague! Woefully bad. They pinch photos of original kit from all over the net and put them on their site as examples of items they've made. The few examples of their products I've had the misfortune to be shown look like they've been made from recycled dog blankets and baked bean tins.......

cheers

Paul

Mark,

I've pm'd you his mobile number.

Cheers

Paul

Mark,

Try Steve Kiddle at Pegasus Militaria. A bit of a wait sometimes but worth it as he is the only one doing BD accurately and he will make to measure for those who are calorifically challenged!!

Another thing to watch out for is the 'Air France' look where the repros don't get the colour quite right. Kiddle is good on colour too.

Re WPG, customer service is pretty good usually, but the quality of the kit can be a bit variable. A lot of it is made in Pakistan and now and again some of it is pretty poor quality.

I believe there is an RAF reenactment forum out there somewhere might be an idea to ask on there as I'm out of my comfort zone with blue kit!

Regards

Paul

ps link to reenactment forum http://www.network54.com/Forum/180748/

You may not find any evidence left. Some of the rebuilds were very thorough. I stripped down a WOT 2 some years back and was trying to find evidence of the original finish. Lots of DBG and very little else. Finally I found what seemed to be the original brown tucked right up in the corner of the front cab bulkhead. Whoever had rebuilt it in 1953 did a proper job! No doubt lots of buckshee National Servicemen armed with paint brushes in those days!!

Cheers

Paul

David,

As you say the key is the period it represents. I have a Daimler Armoured Car and the engine bay on these vehicles was body ie external colour, at least during WW2 at any rate. This is confirmed by study of assembly photographs from the Daimler works.

Of course what happened during the major rebuild programmes in the 50s is anyone's guess. I have no doubt that some where painted differently during this process.

Unlike the DAC the interior of a Dingo is body coloured. Seems unlikely to me that during wartime the decision would have been made to paint the engine bay in another colour. Also the aluminium paint was expensive and in short supply. Some of the early DACs were painted white inside because of the paint shortage.

If you're intending to portray the vehicle in a later scheme the the aluminium paint is probably correct. I've seen several examples like that over the years.

When Daimler engines came out of the factory they were in Daimler's grey finish with the serial number stencilled on the side. I doubt this paint lasted very long during the war. Certainly by the end most engines would have been in the repair/rebuild colour of eau de nil.

Regards

Paul

Pete,

One problem with this, the colour transparencies showing Sir Bernard Paget do not show the denim tank suit. He is wearing a standard two piece denim Battledress suit. In the case of Eden the fit is not too bad, but note that both men have string tied around the waist of the trousers. There is a photo in that sequence of Sir Berbard being helped into his suit.by an RAC corporal and it shows it clearly as a BD.

The RAC officer in the pea green blancoed webbing has a nice example of the black overall though.

Cheers

Paul

The image

Cheers

Paul

Ps the 'GPMG' was a prop hired in. It was a proper bitzer made up of some original bits. I think the receiver was made from a Browning. Back in those days GPMGs were very hard to get hold of. They still are of course!

That's interesting. The colour reconstruction photos on the link you posted are the photos I took of my kit for the old Military Illustrated magazine many years ago. I have a copy somewhere and should post the rest of it as it contains some detail on uniform items too, including liners and waterproofs.

I also still have the original large format slides somewhere. The complete Royal Marine rig I acquired during the early 1980s. In 1992 I lent it to the IWM for their 10th anniversary Falklands exhibition. At the end of the exhibition I decided I didn't want it back and subsequently sold it to the IWM with a quantity of Argentine uniforms and equipment.

Oddly, they decided for reasons best known to themselves, not to have some of the original accessories that went with the kit. It was an absolutely complete arctic kit right down to things like a snow brush and survival torch, survival blanket etc.

I also have a white cover for this arctic bergan too. I also have an original photocopied stores list for the whole lot showing the relevant NSNs. There were quite a few supplementary straps for this pack including a rubber backed waist belt and various extra stowage straps. The frame on my example was a gold colour and likely was not made by Karrimor as there was nothing stamped or impressed on the frame.

Cheers

Paul

Thanks for the response,

Definitely British, the WD code Z over W /I\ D 252, indicates 1945 manufacture and the photo dates to very early 1945. I'm assuming that these suits may date from late 44, but it's possible they are earlier of course. No other markings or labels present. In my previous post I said that the cuffs and ankles were closed by buttons, they are actually closed by Newey press studs. These are the smaller type, with the external 'dome' part being 1/2" diameter, ie not the larger Newey type used on the 'Oversuit Tank Crew'

The only buttons are on the two thigh pockets. The pocket on the upper left chest is a simple flap with no fastening.

No clues from the zip either, this has the same orangey web tape as used on the 'Oversuit' but the actual fastener is missing. I would imagine it was a 'Dot' I haven't got around to trying one yet but the zip looks to be the same size. There is a storm flap or reinforcing behind the front zip which fastens to a single button inside the suit on the upper right chest. There are double thickness patches at elbow and knees.

Interesting item. I've only recently been given the photo of the veteran wearing it. I spoke to him again yesterday, though his health is now very poor. He recalls the suit but cannot recall when or how it was issued to him.

Cheers

Paul

Does anyone recognise the tank suit in the photo? I have one of these but have been unable to identify what pattern it is. The photo shows one of these suits worn by an individual in 43rd Recce.

They are of heavy khaki waterproof cotton fabric similar to the motorcyclist clothing. Stand collar, single full length front zip, single slash pocket on left breast with simple flap and no button. Slash openings for side pockets, buttoned large pocket on each thigh. Cuffs and ankles are buttoned cuffs. There are splits at the bottom outer seam on each leg to enable the suit to be pulled on over boots.

Any ideas?

Cheers

Paul

I did an article in the one of the early issues of the old Military Illustrated magazine on Royal Marine Falklands kit. I had a complete arctic kit, brand spanking at the time, and the sleeping bag was an excellent piece of kit. Bit of a bugger to roll up I seem to recall.

To my embarrassment I do not have a copy of the magazine, but if somebody does it has several photos of the arctic bergan et al.

I'll see if I can find the original pre digital photos if all else fails.

Cheers

Paul

Always a good idea to lock the turret too.....

Clive,

Pleased to hear that you have recognition of your excellent work and I hope their apology was fulsome! Absolutely right about the importance of water supply and the difficulty and danger of getting it to those that needed it.

One of the Bedford water trucks of 43rd Recce was ambushed by a German patrol and its driver Trooper Booth was killed. Even that job was not without risk.

Regards

Paul

Clive,

That's very annoying and insulting. I've had the same thing happen to me with original research. Sadly the Internet is full of these 'cut and paste' merchants nicking everyone else's hard work and glibly passing it off as their own.

I'll be interested to see what response (if any) you get from these thieves.

Regards

Paul

These are vehicle ration boxes, often used in AFVs. The type shown in the photo would be for a vehicle like a Daimler Dingo- two men 1 day. My Daimler Armoured Car has three of the larger No2, 3 men 1 day type, two in a bin at the back of the turret, and one inside the hull. I also have a wartime 5 men 1 day version as issued to tank crews.

There were specific menus for the WW2 AFV rations, though of course the contents were similar to the standard compo rations. Originally the AFV rations were issued in a fibreboard case but this proved to be not very durable.

Not sure when these tins were introduced, I think the earliest I have had was 1942 dated but I'm sure they may have predated that.

They continued in production post war and were in use until well after WW2. A lot of these turn up with 1952-53 dates for some reason and are often in unissued condition. The leather strap on the later examples is sometimes of undyed or white coloured leather. Wartime dated examples are more difficult to find but do seem to pop-up on ebay from time to time.

Cheers

Paul

There was an ebay user Nuttynigel0 who was trying to sell the internal fittings for an MWR on ebay some time back a lot of it didn't sell if I recall. Might be worth dropping him a message. I note he is still selling some MW related bits.

I've no connection with this bloke other than buying a Wireless Set 22 off him some time ago. Seemed like a decent sort when I collected it.

Cheers

Paul

Yes not very well known and as the numbers made must be quite small they seldom turn up. At the end of each brace there are three inch loops to enable them to be slipped over a waistbelt. One of them has a loop to enable them to be crossed over in the small of the back just like '37 pattern.

They're listed in COSAs as Patt. '58 as follows:

8465-99-130-0246 BRACES, INDIVIDUAL EQUIPMENT

Detail SAS; webbing; cotton; olive drab; 43. 3/8 in. lg o/a 1958 Pattern; web equipment

8465-99-130-0247 POUCH, AMMUNITION, 1958 Pattern, Self loading rifle

Detail Webbing, cotton; olive drab. For use by SAS Regt only

8465-99-130-0248 POUCH, AMMUNITION, 1958 Pattern, Armalite

Detail Webbing, cotton; olive drab. For use by SAS Regt only

8465-99-130-0249 POUCH, RATION, ESCAPE

Detail Webbing, cotton; olive drab. 1958 Pattern for SAS Regt only

8465-99-130-0250 POUCH, ALTIMETER

Detail Webbing cotton; olive drab; 1958 Pattern; web equipment for SAS only

8465-99-130-0251 SHEATH, KNIFE

Detail Webbing cotton; olive drab; web equipment; 1958 Pattern for use by SAS only

The Detail column has inconsistent text. They were not present in CCN 1965, they were introduced between 1965 & 1976, specifically for SAS and I've never seen photos showing otherwise. The dropped loops were because SAS favoured Bergens, their multi-day patrols requiring more to be carried. The lumbar strap of the bergen coincides with the waistbelt, so all pouches had to be below it. -0251 inverts to Sheath Knife. It's not, of course, its a sheath for a knife, specifically such as Victorinox Swiss Army, Gerber, etc Trade Pattern stuff.

Marked GQ makes it very interesting. RFD-GQ took over Mills in 1970s, their product lines being reasonably coincident. Venture capitalists thereafter screwed everything up.

Hope this is of interest.

Cheers

Paul