BenHawkins

Thanks Steve,

As I will not be fitting the original engine I will just slot it all back together for the time being and get new castings once I am certain everything will line up. They do not have any complexities like the subsidy model top tank so it should be a fairly simple task.

Ben

I think this is the final major component I have in stock:

It is the correct model of radiator for this year and in reasonable condition over all.

As with most radiators of this type it is heavily corroded where the aluminium is in close proximity to the brass.

Some repairs have been done to the bottom tank in the past with lead rivets.

I am not sure if there is any practical solution to this other than new castings.

I hope to visit this chassis soon and have a good look over it. There are lots of things like the distance between mounting holes for the engine etc. that could help confirm its identity.

It could be more than one chassis; hopefully an inspection will give more information.

Great to see the restoration work in progress, i,m looking forward to see it evolve. I would like to restore something similar if I was lucky enough to find something out there. Is reference material available,manuals etc for early machines,where would I go for these?

It depends a lot on the manufacturer. Most of the records and many of the drawings were retained by Dennis and are available at the Surrey History Centre. There is even a photo of this lorry just before delivery; unfortunately it does not show the registration number but hopefully a photo of it with Shentalls will turn up at some point.

Each year that goes by fewer parts are available. I was lucky with this one as it was quite a popular model but it looks like I will have to fit the Aster engine as I can not find the original. Dennis had still been using Aster engines a few years earlier but by 1914 were fitting White and Poppe engines to virtually every chassis built.

I have this Dennis gearbox. It is of the slightly later design when provision was made for a PTO and the transmission brake shoes are mounted from the gearbox casting.

The box itself is in a terrible state. It is heavily corroded and has one of the mounting lugs completely broken off. One of the gear pairs needs replacing but otherwise the internals look pretty good.

Sarah has been turning the numbers off new Whitworth bolts so they do not look tool out of place when fitted.

Most parts have been sandblasted, primed and given a coat of undercoat ready for an assembly party.

Most of the suspension components were fairly corroded. I made a drawing from the remains of the original springs and had a new set made. Each leaf has nibs pressed in that engage with a slot in the leaf above.

All the brass greasers had been removed from the shackle pins so I have been making those over Christmas along with new shackle pins where required. The new shackle pins have been made from EN24T and I have made new phosphor bronze bushes where required.

One of these torque arms was quite bent. Having carried out a "spark test" they appeared to be cast steel so I warmed them with a welding torch in the bent area to straighten it out.

This is the engine I have found. It is an Aster of around 1910 vintage; it was once part of a generator set and has virtually no compression. It is also a little under powered at a nominal 14hp; the original was a 28hp White and Poppe.

I have mentioned this vehicle in another thread but thought a thread of its own might be of interest as we intend to start reassembling it over the next few weeks now I have the space to do so.

The chassis number is 3539 and this shows up in the Dennis logs as being purchased by Ernest Shentall of Chesterfield. It was delivered very early in 1914 (probably January). Ernest Shentall was a wholesale fruitier and jam maker. I don't know if ever found any military use but Dennis supplied a reasonable number of this type of vehicle to the military in addition to the "Subsidy A" model. The 3000 series of chassis numbers appears to be mainly filled with a model described as the "N Type"; the two and three ton models had a 5 foot track and a chassis assembled from rolled steel channel.

My friend Mick sold me the chassis in 2009, having purchased it from Lincolnshire in 1997. It may have been purchased by Wallis Coal Merchants in Alford in the 1920s, using it as a coal lorry for a while before converting it to a caravan where it was towed behind a steam engine.

Lots of parts have turned up over the past few years (many more than for my 1908 Dennis) so it has most of the major components.

Ben

Found a picture of a larger version of my Ormerod shaper in a 1912 copy of Commercial Motor. Almost identical in most details so I am now more certain it is WWI.

Progress is still very slow on the Dennis as I have been building a house/workshop for the past ten months.

 

The other weekend we collected an Ormerod shaper to go in the workshop. This one was built during WWI and has cast into the body "War Finish" to indicate that it was not finished to the usual high standard.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]77225[/ATTACH]

 

Does anyone know when "War Finish" was oficially adopted? I have seen machines from WWII but this is the first one I have seen from WWI.

 

Hopefully I will be able to post some photos of it making truck parts soon but I need to rig up a drive system as it was originally line shaft/flat belt driven.

 

Ben

This reminds me that the Amberley Chalk Pits Museum had made the moulds for the blocks of a bi-block commercial vehicle engine, so things are part way there if you are not to fussy as to the final design... (See The Automobile magazine, June 1988 for more info.)

Thanks, I have started pattern making for another cylinder block to complete the set of four. However I could fit something else if it turns up. I own a slightly more complete subsidy engine but it would be a really tight fit in the space available, sits 3" too high in the chassis and would require a special drive system making to the starting handle to clear the front cross member.

The original engine was purchased in from White and Poppe of Coventry so I don't have as many drawings for that as the parts manufactured by Dennis.

The fire engines were usually a very short wheelbase (11'6" for the 6 cylinder, 10'6" for the large 4 cylinder). The archives of Dennis are held by the Surrey History Centre in Woking.

Steve has told me the chassis has a very long wheelbase for the period (14'6") and it may have been longer as there is a flitch plate "repair" in the middle.

On a listing of standard models built up to the mid twenties only two are this long on solid tyres:

6 Ton, 14'6" wheelbase, 21'7"7/8 overall length. 127x180 pair cast White and Poppe engine with 9.66 or 8.75:1 back axle.

40-50HP omnibus, 15'4" wheelbase, 25' overall length. 115x150 pair cast White and Poppe engine.

However it may have been a non standard model. Does anyone know how wide the back tyres were?

Ben

Although 3783 is recorded in the chassis logs as 1914 and OHMS this chassis does not look like anything else in the 3000 series of chassis numbers.

There were ranges of numbers used and 3000 seems to correlate to the 5 foot track model with the chassis constructed of rolled steel channel. So the identification is still a little uncertain.

In the 3000 range the earlier models tended to be Y spoke and the later ones tended to be round hollow spoke.

Work on the 1908 Dennis stopped for around two years whilst we built it a new home. The other weekend I enlisted the help of a local recovery company to move it to the new house.

The larger garage at the new premises should allow us the space to bolt on some of the other bits we have been working on.

The main challenge is still to find a suitable engine. I am pretty sure we will have to make the radiator and gearbox from scratch but an engine seems one step too far.

In the top photo you can just about make out the void in the middle of the rear axle where the drive would go. The rear spring hangers are quite distinctive as are the front dumb irons which curve back on themselves.

One of the tubes between the chassis rails appears to operate the brakes, the other two appear to brace the chassis rails apart.

Another one for identification (and to find a new home if possible).

This one had been the base of a lions cage. The current owner was told it was a 1906 Dennis lorry but I am certain it is not.

The main advantage of the electric lights for fire brigade work was that the time to get the fire engine out of the station was reduced (no need to light the lamps). All the stations were fitted with charging sets.

London fire engines were not expected to travel long distances to fires, but rural brigades would usually have carbide lamps as well or instead of electric lamps.

I cut the flange out with a jigsaw as a continuous piece (bridges will be cut out later) and glued on other turned sections.

I laid the tapered side up in a lobster back arrangement. There are two layers so each join is supported. It actually ended up more rigid than I expected.

There is still quite a lot to do including a core box for one part. The lower half of the gearbox is slightly more technical as it needs to carry the selector forks and the reverse shaft (I don't have drawings for either of these).

Hi Ben. Does this help - from 1907. It has the shackle brackets but doesn't look tall enough.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80050[/ATTACH]

At the start of 1908 they changed over to aluminium radiators with horizontal tubes but still shackle mount as shown in that advert.

I am still spending most of my time building the new house/workshop but do a little work towards the van here and there.

These are new castings for the gearbox end covers:

Some of the drawings for the gearbox have survived but not all of them. There is also the original patent; it is a four speed model with a freewheel device.

The overall dimensions of the case can be taken from the original shaft drawings and the shaft centre distance is easy to calculate from the gears used and the diametrical pitch used (6DP). The cylindrical part was easy to make; just turned a bowl and then split it in four.

I am pretty sure the shaper is WWI as all the fasteners are to BS190 pattern, these bolts became obsolete in 1924. Also Oremeod Brothers became the Ormerod Tool Company in 1918.

We will reinstate the line shafting in the workshop once we have finished building the house.

Ben

Progress is still very slow on the Dennis as I have been building a house/workshop for the past ten months.

The other weekend we collected an Ormerod shaper to go in the workshop. This one was built during WWI and has cast into the body "War Finish" to indicate that it was not finished to the usual high standard.

Does anyone know when "War Finish" was oficially adopted? I have seen machines from WWII but this is the first one I have seen from WWI.

Hopefully I will be able to post some photos of it making truck parts soon but I need to rig up a drive system as it was originally line shaft/flat belt driven.

Ben

All the details will also be given on the little brass plate on the front of bulkhead (at the back/top of the bonnet). You can just spot this on the photo.

Ben

I would be more than happy to look up the details from the chassis number. Originally this fire engine would have had the same engine I am missing from my 1908 lorry. It looks like it has been replaced at some point.

Ben

This was a Dennis fire engine (PTO gearbox, brass radiator with starting handle through core).

It is early (1915 or earllier). It would have been upgraded over the years and this may account for the later (but I believe still Dennis) hubs for pneumatic tyre wheels.

I would love to see more information on this one.

Ben

Runflat, Thank you for the photos they all help.

I am sure you are right that the van with the fleet number 1579 is the same as in my advert. The registration was LC7830 and it dates to around 1906.

Van number 2003 is again slightly earlier than mine. I have not yet managed to find a photo of any of the vans delivered in 1908. The "van body" was recycled from the horse vans (and appears to be a standard design); does anyone know if any plans exist for these?

The drivers seat would have been made by Dennis and is different on each batch delivered.

I am still building my new house/garage for the Dennis but hopefully we will be able to get back to the restoration soon.