ED-1617

Chris, great to hear from you! I believe I have been in contact with your wife regarding a visit to see the lorry, and would of course be more than happy to have you all over for a trip out in it, I will be in touch!

For the benefit of everyone else reading this thread, I will post some pictures of my Thornycroft which is now nearing the end of its rebuild. I have been quiet on here for a while but I have still been busy working on the Thornycroft, perhaps I will post some further rebuild photos to fill in the gap at a later date.
 

As Steve has mentioned I have got to the point where the Thorny is running and I have since covered over 100 miles on the road in the 4 weeks I have had the old thing running again, with only very minor issues that were easily sorted at the road side. There are still a few finishing touches before I can call the J type finished, but I wanted to get it out and enjoy it at a few shows before the summer ended, whilst also giving me a chance to find any teething troubles that may have arisen before completing the finishing jobs through the winter. 

There was a steam show and photo charter being held at the Amberley Museum down here in Sussex and I had set myself the rough deadline of having the lorry there, however the sign-writing on the rear body had taken me a lot longer than first planned, leaving little time to complete the remaining mechanics to the engine. I was however able to get the engine running for the first time on the Thursday before the show, followed by a short trip round the yard on the Friday. The steam show was 40 miles away from my shed, and there’s nothing like a baptism of fire to show up any issues after a rebuild, so I decided to drive it there on the Saturday morning! Luckily the only issues I had were a dodgy set of new spark plugs, which I ended up replacing with the old ones I took out; a fuel blockage where a bit of solder had rattled loose from the new pipe work, and finally the retaining nut for the clutch spider falling off! Luckily I was stationary at the time and heard it rattle onto the floor, allowing me to simply retrieve it and screw it back on. It appears the locking clip had failed allowing the nut to loosen over the journey. Nonetheless the lorry made it, a proud achievement after hiding in a shed for 3 years!

I think it’s fair to say the Thornycroft has been declared a successful pub vehicle also!

And my most recent trip out was gate-crashing the Veteran Car Clubs summer car run.

Im hoping to drive the lorry home from its summer holiday in a week or two, whereafter I will be able to carry out the finishing jobs. 

On 10/21/2021 at 10:20 AM, Tomo.T said:

There has been rather a lot of polished brass just lately, so here is some bronze by way of a change. Mike Lewendon has been busy on the CNC mill producing a carburetor extension flange to suit the chosen Solex MOV 35

The flange originally held the butterfly governor valve, which does not appear on the cast of this production. It also has the side effect of adding 4 inches to the gravity feed fuel system.

The choice of carb  is one step forward from the original fitting and boasts some notable improvements over the original design, including butterfly throttle, idle mixture adjustment and a choke. It also came in at less than a third of the price of an original.

This particular 'carby' came from a Gentleman in the south of France, where it had previously been providing sustenance to a vintage racing Bentley ! Judging by the enormous main jet, this is very likely true. The carb has since undergone a thirst reduction programme  and now has standard 'J' type jets from the original spec.

Morning Tomorrow, just catching up on your thread and noticed the carb you have chosen is an MOV35. My thorny is fitted with an MOV40. Are we aware of the differences between the two? Does the number denote a size, or stage of development?

It’s been a while since I last posted anything on ED the J type, and unfortunately its been just as long since I worked on it, I don’t know where this summer has gone! It has been somewhat filled up since moving house, and making that liveable, which already seems a never ending task! I have also been distracted with buying a vintage car, which was supposed to be a fun little toy for the summer, sold as running and ready to go… But I’m sure we all know what comes next, another vehicle all in bits! A few months tinkering with that got it eventually running how it should, before a big end failure. This is now stripped and the crankcase, crank and big ends with the white metal chap.

To add extra time delay the shed that I house the Thornycroft in is due for demolition soon to make way for houses, how inconsiderate! So before I can make much further progress I will be spending time searching for another shed to keep it in, and then the mammoth task of moving the chassis, and all the junk that we accumulate whilst working on these things!

Anyhow, there are a few tasks that I have yet to share that I completed before my summer break, the first of which being the scuttle. After much deliberation I came to the conclusion that the one fitted was uneconomical to repair and make right. It had been bodged and chopped so many times that it had lost most of its original charm, and if I were to make it right would end up being mostly new, so I decided to bite the bullet and make a full new one, which luckily on a J type isn’t of a too complicated construction. I was able to source the steel and have a local firm roll the top radius into it, so that all I needed to do was to cut the right shape out.

The rolling was a very neat job, a nice seamless blend into the flat, very happy.

After much carefull measuring and marking out, it was time to attack it with the grinder. The first mock up on the chassis was to prove my dimensions had come out correct! 

Next was more marking out! This time for all the scuttle furniture, and most importantly the mag switch, which now had a new home on a Thornycroft.

The scuttle furniture was stripped back to bare metal/timber and primed, ready for assembly.

Before a trial fitment of the fuel tank, again fingers crossed, making sure my measurements had come out correct! I took this opportunity to make the new timber packers for the fuel tank also.

With the lot finish assembled, it was just a case of lifting the item onto the chassis to enable me to get the measurements I’d need to make the new bonnet. Happy with the result.

Whilst the bigger bits of the rebuild go on in the shed, I always try to find little bits I can carry out at home (which pleases the mrs!). I have been on the lookout, since I purchased the lorry, for a correct style oil gauge; the one that was previously fitted being of 1930s vintage. Recently I have been lucky enough to obtain one, and so that led to a bit of dining table tinkering. The first step was to check the function of the gauge. Luckily I have a good friend who has a gauge tester. The device showed up that the gauge was fully functioning, and was only 1psi out over its full range when compared to the 50psi gauge on the tester, which is good enough for me!

As usual the gauge didn’t stay complete for long, I was curious to see how it worked one evening and so dismantled it very carefully. Whilst apart I was also keen to try and preserve the patina on the gauge face, and so very gently cleaned off any debris, before applying a matt finish varnish, the idea being to prevent any further decay to the face and also stop any more bits coming away. I was dead happy with the result, and so with a good clean and reassemble it’s back on the shelf ready to be fitted.

Some of you may also recall that I was unfortunate enough to lose a correct pattern Thomson-Bennet magneto switch in a house fire, along with a couple of other spares that I had collected. Well luckily since then I have been able to source two more! One I have kept for my Thornycroft rebuild, and the other has since been purchased by a friend who is rebuilding a 1919 Leyland RAF type. As with the gauge I was curious to inspect and learn the operation of the switch and so that was taken apart too, the simplicity of the design is very refreshing and will go again without repairs, I’m sure there will be a few on here interested to see the insides so I’ve chucked a couple of pictures of that up here too. Some more pieces of the Thornycroft puzzle ready to go!

Another job that I had been meaning to do for a while was a quick strip of the steering box. I had been in the fortunate position of having the vehicle running a few times before it’s major strip down, fortunate for both the local pub, and for myself being able to identify what aspects were good about the vehicle, and what might need deeper investigation. I had identified on our couple of jaunts out that the steering on the Thornycroft was remarkably light and easy, at any speed over a crawl the use of one finger could be sufficient! This was a pleasant surprise to me, having owned a Matador in the past for which the same certainty couldn’t be said!

I therefore had it in the back of my mind that the steering box should hopefully be a reasonably straightforward task, with no real faults needing investigation. On a personal note however I do enjoy stripping assemblies down to give myself both a further understanding on their operation, but also a reassurance on their physical condition. The steering box had been removed from the vehicle ready for disassembly.

Nice to see the unit stuffed nicely with grease upon splitting the case.

The shaft and lever arm were removed from the casing and given a good clean and inspection, very little wear apparent in here, even in the white metalled nut.

With the nut showing minimal wear, the bearings in good nic and still tight on the shaft, It was just a simple case of reassembling and packing with fresh grease. The end float of the shaft can be adjusted on a nut against the thrust bearing, this was set back to the recommended adjustment before stripping the box back to metal.

And then a couple of coats of primer on all the bits before top coating in black. The unit will then be fitted back into the chassis and all the jiblets refitted.

Wheel fitting time! Now that the rear wheels had finally been finished I was keen to get them fitted back on and have the Thornycroft sat back on all 4 wheels for the first time in what felt like too long!
 

Before I could do this I needed to finish the rear brakes, for which the shoes had been sent away and re-lined. One of the brake shoes had had a packer fitted over the heel, I assume to account for some previous wear in a past life. I removed the packer and started fresh. A trial fitting of the wheels with the re-lined shoes showed up that the new lining was perhaps ever so slightly too thick, perhaps a imperial/metric material error. As it was a minimal amount I was able to get away with simply shaving a fraction off of the face of the heel, just tickling off the high spots was enough to get the drum to slide happily over the shoes, I couldn’t be happier with the fit! Unfortunately I can’t find any pics from these stages, however I always seem to remember to take pics of the shiny bits going back on!

As mentioned previously I had found that the rear wheel bearings and bearing faces were all in impeccable condition, I wouldn’t be surprised if they had been renewed at some point in its life, and if not then they have been made of some bloody good stuff! Both bore clearances and end float were bob on, I wouldn’t have given them any less clearance if I were to make new ones so a good clean and some quality fresh grease will do here.

A nice finishing detail was to sort out the rear hubcaps. The drive shaft flange is sandwiched between the hubcap and the wheel and so these needed to go on for me to call the back axle complete. The brass hubcaps were in a bad way, the near side example has had a hard life with many bumps and grazes, which I personally like, they tell a story! However for some reason someone in the past had decided to go over the brass with an angle grinder and had therefore left very unattractive marks all over. I spent a good couple of evenings with a file sympathetically removing the grinder marks, whilst leaving the hard life dents in tact. A good polish up and then they were ready to re-fit.

Final assembly, with some quality (if expensive!) vintage bearing grease, and the re-lined brake gear all in place.

I had made some new felt seals prior to fitting, so it was a simple case of popping them into the recess before sliding the wheel gently on.

The wheel nuts were screwed on and the locking pegs fitted, in turn locked in with a split pin, as described in the Thornycroft Auriga book.

There’s nothing else to do here but give the wheels a go! A very satisfying spin.

The drive shafts were dragged off of the shelf and cleaned, as you can see these are still happily serviceable.

The hub caps and drive flanges fitted. Back on 4 wheels again!

22 minutes ago, Tomo.T said:

Hi Toby, Infra red heaters are the way to go in a paint booth. They heat the objects not the air, so do not circulate dust.

Thank you for the tip Tomo, I might have to invest in one. I did think about one at first but I had heard that the temperature difference between the warm object and cooler air could cause issues, but I guess not?

With the chassis mostly back together and complete I turned my attention towards the rear wheels, this was something I had been putting off for a while, as these pressed disc wheels a right buggers to get inside! As with the fronts they have had new rubbers spun on recently, and the bearings are in exceptionally good condition, which was a bonus! Because of this I try my best to avoid shot blasting, and so many hours of wire wheeling began, I don’t think the insides had been painted since new!

With a good coat of grey primer once cleaned back to bare metal, it there begins the long task of building the paint back up again, beginning with a quick skim of filler in the outer faces to get them to a nice ‘show finish’. I like the contrast between new and old, and so I left the insides and inner faces of the wheels pitted, so you can still gauge the age of them, a smooth surface also makes it a little quicker to clean the outside! I was advised a while ago by an old coach painting friend that using a black undercoat for maroon helps both build the colour up quicker, and also give a much deeper and richer finish, and so this is the method I have adopted for painting the Thornycroft. I also like to think that any chips that will occur when the lorry is being enjoyed will only reveal a black colour, instead of a bright undercoat.

By the time I was into gloss it was mid January this year, and the weather was pretty grim! I decided to build a paint booth in the shed in order for me to continue painting, a couple of greenhouse heaters worked well to keep a low but constant temperature within the plastic sheeting. My shed is also horrendously dusty, which the sheeting managed to mostly keep out.

After a very fine wet and dry it was time to get the lining brush out again, before a final varnish. 
 

Im glad those are done!

A bit of a distraction from the main rebuild perhaps, but after a long time doing the gutty bit cleaning and painting the chassis I fancied doing something a little more interesting and delicate. The civilian J types all the the axle weights and speed restriction sign-written on the chassis rails, so I fancied reproducing this on mine. After some research I decided to copy the styles shown in the following pictures.

First was to try and replicate the scripts on paper, I only had photos of the same quality as above to work from which made it a little tricky, but I reckon I got them pretty close. Once on paper the designs are transferred to the work area using chalk on the rear of the paper and a thick pen to trace the design on.

Before being drawn onto the chassis using a chinograph pencil

Now it’s just the simple task of painting them on! I’m no professional signwriter, however I enjoy learning how to do things myself, and I’m pretty happy with how the lettering came out! They are actually painted in the same ‘off white’ colour, however my photos have managed to make them look very different colours! Another little detail complete, now on with more important bits!

10 hours ago, Scrunt & Farthing said:

A fine selection of beers on the shelf there, Toby.  I assume that once a moderate thirst has been built up, the evening is given up (as it should in every shed) to noisy revelry.   I conjecture the bottle of Yellow-Tail at the end is reserved for its corrosive properties, paint stripping and the like.  Keep up the good work.  It is an inspiration for the Kent Branch of the scrap bus and lorry works.

 

That is a fine assumption, however I would argue that my productivity is generally sped up after an alcoholic warm up aha! I have equipped the shed with a kettle, however most visitors to the lorry seem to prefer a slightly stronger beverage under these current circumstances. I can only hope to regain some more wall space once the public houses reopen! 

With the diff now refitted I continued to strip the old paint off of the chassis down to bare metal in preperation to paint back up. At some point in its life the very rear chassis cross member had been replaced with a quickly fabricated one. It was my intention to replace this with a slightly stronger, more original style crossmember, onto which I could fit a rear drawbar. After discussing this point with some fellow J type owners it would appear a rear hitch was not a common fixture from the factory. However in my original logbook it stated that ED 1617 was ordered new with a 4 wheel trailer, and so I thought it likely mine would have been fitted with a rear drawbar hitch. This would also make it much easier to shunt the lorry around if needed to!

I fabricated the new rear cross member and used fitted rivet-head bolts to hold it in place. The rear hitch is of the flat plate design over a casting, being a little stronger and more forgiving. I wanted to be sure that the rear hitch was sufficiently supported, and so with some help, a pair of tie bars were black-smithed from solid, my intention being that it would all look as if it had been made 100 years ago, using period techniques.

Fast forward a little, with more cleaning up and painting, the chassis is mostly back together, and coming into a black top coat. 
 

Good to hear from you Steve, yes it would seem we have a strong Thornycroft presence here! We’ll have to get a few more J types back to Basingstoke one day!
 

Moving on with mine, it had now come to the end of the first lockdown back in the summer, and once we had re-established ourselves with the local, work carried on with ED 1617. I had managed to find a more suitable, undercover location to continue the rebuild which would certainly help me out through the winter months. I had not yet been lucky enough to store any of my previous vehicles inside before so this was quite exciting! It did mean that I would have to temporarily re-assemble some of the lorry in order to get it to a towable state, the new shed only being a few miles up the road. This delayed me a few weeks but it would definitely be worth it in the long run. 

Once in the dry the dis-assembly continued,  removing as much as possible down to just a bare chassis at the rear. The last major drive line component to dismantle and inspect was the rear axle, so off came the wheels, the half shafts and differential unit. These were all components that I was curious to see as I had no real idea of their mechanical condition. Luckily I was very pleasantly surprised, the half shaft splines were all like new, with minimal wear apparent. The wheel bearings were also in extremely good fettle, I wouldn’t have given them any less clearance if I were to manufacture some new ones, so all could be used again!

The differential very handily (and luckily I may add!) was parked under a roof beam in the shed. This aided removal of the unit no end! With a block and tackle slung from the roof, the unit was hoisted out slowly in order for me to have a good clean up and measure up. In the J type this is an epicyclic unit driven through a worm and very large bronze wheel.

Under close examination, using the boroscope in the hard to reach areas, the general condition was very nice, everything was present and correct, still nice and tight and secured with pins and wire where it should be; most importantly all the contact faces were damage free, phew! The backlash in the worm and wheel was measured, along with the thrust clearance on the input shaft, and both compared to the original specs. With both being considered ‘serviceable’ by Thornycroft standards, and the visible condition being faultless I decided it would be of no benefit to further dismantle the unit. And so with a good clean and some fresh oil, it would be ready to refit.

20 hours ago, Citroman said:

Looks perfect. Isn't it easier to paint a circle with the wheel mounted and turning it around?

Thank you. They way I roll the brush in the hand to achieve a smooth curve I found easier to work with the wheel stationary over rotating. But as I said I’m no expert, just having a go aha!

With the various jobs I wanted to carry out on the engine at this stage now completed (unfortunately I cannot find many of the pictures I took from this stage), next was to splash a bit of paint around it all and reassemble the front end. The front axle and components had already received a bit of attention as I was required to move the spring clamps further apart, reason being the front springs had been replaced recently and the clamps fitted too close to the centre by the manufacturer, meaning they were very close to fouling the bottom of the radiator. Once this was sorted, a good weekend was spent reassembling the front end and the results were very satisfying. As far as I could research the M4 engines in the J types were painted either black, or a light blue/grey colour from new. On a personal note I like engines picked out in a different colour from the chassis, and so I opted for the light blue/grey option, similar to that seen in the Portsmouth bus, and S.C.A.T.S. box van J types in Milestones museum.

With the front end coming back together I turned my attention to the wheels. Again the mechanics of the wheel/bearing/stub axles were all very good, and with some new vulcanised rubbers it was only really a bit of paint that the wheels required. I prefer to clean metal up with a wire wheel in a grinder over shotblasting. Much more gutty and time consuming, but I have known too many people suffer from shotblast grit related damage and wanted to avoid that myself. 

And after the usual array of primers, undercoats and much rubbing down it’s always pleasing to get the first top coat on. The living room, come paint shop worked well at this point, still being in lockdown!

I am a fan of having a go myself, and doing things in a traditional manner, and so all of my painting is done by hand, which included having a go at lining. I am no lining expert but I am pretty pleased with the results here!

On 3/4/2021 at 1:00 PM, Scrunt & Farthing said:

Nice to see pictures of it, Toby.  What a cracker, it looks like you are getting on with it.  I think it looks great with that full cab on it.  How long is it?  I could not estimate it from the photos.

Dave

(Kent Branch of the Leyland Scrap Bus and Lorry Works)

Hi Dave, the chassis is 22ft long, I hope this helps? How is the Kent lorry works getting on

A quick little job that I enjoyed was making some correct style grease cups for the front spring pins. The front pins had been run without any grease caps for a little while and hence left the threads exposed to some damage. The threads were turned back, built up with weld and re-cut. 

The grease cups were made to the same style as the remaining originals on the rest of the lorry. I’m no expert at Knurling but I’m happy with how they came out, another job done ready for the front end re-assembly.

One of the other jobs I wanted to tinker with was to give the valves a good inspection and a bit of lapping in. The valves have been replaced at some point and have plenty of meat on them still, with minimal wear in the guides which is good. All valves and valve caps were lapped in, the caps being affectively valve heads, being clamped down onto their own seats to create the seal.
 

^ After removal from the engine.

^ A little better with a good clean up and a gentle lap in.

^ A gave the bottom end a thorough clean, a good inspection and measure up, all seemed good to me.

Amongst other tinkering, bolt checking and fettling, the rest of the engine and First section of chassis frame was stripped back to metal, and prepped for a lick of paint.

Thank you for your comments peeps, I had a busy weekend making the new scuttle for the Thornycroft, which is now back in bits awaiting painting, but I’ll continue where I left off before jumping forward in time!

It must be nearly a year ago now that the first national lockdown was announced, and with that news I decided that I would start dismantling the Thornycroft and have a bit of a sort out over the year, seeing as many events would no longer be able to go ahead. First to come off was the cab, which although strongly made by the previous owner, wasn’t quite correct to the drawing, nor did I think was the correct style for my chassis. The front axle was removed and all components heavily inspected, which was pleasantly found to all be in remarkably good condition, the result of a previous rebuild I suspect, including new springs and pins, but more on those in a bit. Most of the axle components were good enough to simply strip back to metal, and paint back up. At the time I moved the vehicle to where I was living in order for me to continue work whilst the wuhan did it’s thing, however it did mean the poor Thornycroft would have to live outside for a while.

Like much of the Thornycroft, the engine had already received much attention during its preservation life, and hence ran sweet enough for me to leave mainly intact for now, with just a few tinkering jobs to keep it up to scratch. First was to repair a couple of damaged areas to the cylinder blocks. There are a couple of small cracks into the water space, one which had already received a slightly iffy-looking repair. After some advice from friends I decided to go down the route of making some well-fitting copper patches, sealed and screwed up tight against the blocks, this seems a common old fashioned repair for non-pressure systems so I thought it be worth a go!

The first was in between the two exhaust valve chambers and heading towards the water manifold. I decided a strong repair would be to pick up all the manifold bolts and hug the patch round over the edge.

^ After gently shaping the patch down to the block.

^ An attractive repair I think!

^ And the same again for the rear block. This was a little trickier, being a very ornate shape with many curved faces. But with gentle heat and much annealing I got the patch fully touching underneath. Sealed and screwed on it looks quite pretty polished up, almost a shame it’s to be hidden behind the exhaust manifold and heat shield!

After our first few rendezvous with the new J type it became apparent there was an issue with the gearbox. The lorry was by this point booked in to the steam fair at Beamish and so I decided to strip and investigate the issue straight away.

With the help of a good friend the gearbox was dropped out from the lorry, and then stripped. This was back in January last year and so a full rebuild had not thus been decided. It was nice to find a visual issue, in the form of a snapped key shared between second and third gear on the lay shaft. The bolts holding second and third gear onto their shared hub on the input shaft had also worn their holes excessively, causing the gears to become loose. 
 

The worn holes were reamed out oversize, and new fitted bolts made. The worn keyways were recut oversize, and new keys made to suit. All this work was made more tricky by the hardened gears.

After the two shafts had been refitted into the cleaned up casing, the end float was reset to the manufacturers spec with a new thrust washer. All the bearings were in impeccable condition, and so were cleaned and reused.
 

The gearbox was given a fresh lick of paint and refitted.

Evening all, after having been a member on here for a little while now and following with great interest the various restoration threads I thought it was about time I posted some pictures illustrating the rebuild I’m currently undertaking on my 1919 Thornycroft J type. A brief history of the vehicle first I think.

ED-1617 left the Basingstoke works on 21st November 1919 having been assigned chassis number J-7860, being delivered to dealer J.Melbourne of Warrington, Cheshire. It would appear they held the vehicle in stock for just over a year until eventually being sold to Joseph Brierley & Sons of Beatrice Street, Warrington on 29th January 1921, being assigned the registration ED-1617. I have very little information on the Brierley Company early on, the only reference I’ve been able to find describing them as ‘Metal Brokers’, they later ended up operating a scrap yard from their premises, from which multiple Supermarine Spitfires were rescued in the mid-70s when their yards were being cleared. ED-1617 remained with the company right up until 1979, the later years of which it lay derelict alongside the firms BT type Thornycroft. From there it was purchased by J.R.Turner of Runcorn, Cheshire and rebuilt alongside J type NB-6684, which now resides in the Milestones collection in Basingstoke. ED-1617 was restored into a fictional military style vehicle at first and attended many events, and appeared in the television series ‘Upstairs Downstairs’. Mr Turner eventually sold the J type to Mr Roger Bone in 2006, who ‘civilianised’ the vehicle, altering the cab and rear body. Under this guise it featured in ‘Downton Abbey’, which can be seen at the very end of this clip: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz2O1milqMI I was lucky enough to then purchase the vehicle from Mr Bone in November 2019.

I initially planned to just use the vehicle for a year and have a bit of fun, before a strip and rebuild. After a minor amount of tinkering the J type was soon off up the road, and we enjoyed a good couple trips up the pub around Christmas time, and even a job moving a traction engine tender. Mr Wuhan soon put a stop to that however, and so in the first lockdown I decided to strip the vehicle and begin its rebuild early, a decision I do not regret, as I hope by the time events and venues are back to usual the J type will be largely useable again. 
 

^ ED-1617 when being initially restored by Mr Turner of Runcorn.

^ In it’s first guise as a military bodied J type

^ED-1617 shortly after arrival at its new home here in Sussex.

^ Jumping the timeline a little but a few photos from this afternoon having just refitted the overhauled steering box. I’m aiming to restore the vehicle as close to original as possible with the very limited information I have on its original spec, having no photos of ED-1617 earlier than the one shown when being first restored. I do however know the original colour scheme when working for Jsph. Brierley, which I am slowly recreating as components are refurbished and refitted.

I will soon upload some more pictures showing the work I have have undertaken so far. Cheers, Toby.