10FM68

Morning, Clive. Any snow where you are? Only up on the tops here and quite sunny! Thanks for that photo - bizarre isn't it? I can't quite see the attraction of having a jerrican stuck up in the middle like that, I must say! But it is strange that the cutaway rear side panels to provide for jerrican stowage on LWB Land Rovers took so long to be adopted given the obvious space just dying to be used from the outset. As you know, quite a few units permitted the insertion of stowage boxes there long before they became part of the specification. I wonder whether any other units followed the SAS practice of having 1 gallon oil tins mounted under the bonnet as, at least some of, the PPs had.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153451400040 Here you go. This is more or less what it was, though this one is for a Series 2 with built-in rifle rack. The Series 3 ones didn't have that because, of course, by then, the rifle holders were of a different pattern. The rubber strips were on the base to stop the can rattling. I don't remember the legs either - I think, but don't quote me, the Series 3 ones were attached to the bulkhead rather than to the seat box. But they were certainly a factory fit because I remember seeing one on a new issue Land Rover which is when I wondered what it was. Not sure it's worth the price, mind!

I don't think so. As I recall, this jerrican holder appeared only on the Series 3. My memory isn't that brilliant, but I can't remember it on the earlier models, but most of my service was on Series 3 and later and nothing before 2As. And I recall wondering what it was when I frst encountered it - again, suggesting it was novel for the Series 3. But I don't think there would be any arrangement in a British military Land Rover for any 'half jerricans" - they weren't issued. There were the full fat 4 1/2 gallon (20l) ones and then you were into thin-walled gallon cans for oil. By this stage the earlier 2-gallon cans with the diagonal handle and the brass screw cap had gone out of service. It isn't an unorthodox fitment. The securing 'thingy' is very probably a carry-over from earlier fittings on the tub side of the bulkhead on GS vehicles (not on FFRs, of course, because the radio trays were fitted there). I presume any remaining ones were removed once the SA80 rifle fittings were fitted in their place.

On another occasion at Casterley, with a training squad from 3TRRE we were setting off various demolition charges using PE, a Bangalore torpedo, an improvised one out of 6’ pickets and, of course, a Mk7 AT mine. As can so often happen, one ‘bang’ dislodges one of the others which then fails to detonate. On this occasion there were to be 8 ‘bangs’. 6 occurred, there was a pause, then another. ‘Oh dear’, only 7 of the 8 had gone off. On these occasions it is always the responsibility of the officer to go and find out what happened and put it right. Inevitably, the young sappers are rather hoping something dramatic will befall him (with seriousness depending on their ghoulishness and his popularity) and so are watching with intense interest from the 1000m point as ‘Troopy’ sets off with his ‘blinds box’ to do the dirty. Anyway, he gets down to the dems pit to discover that, what had happened was the charge inside the fuse well of the Mk7 hadn’t set off the main charge but had simply exploded upwards, leaving a hot and smoky, but otherwise unscathed, anti-tank mine. So, our gallant young subaltern gets a bit of plastic explosive and a detonator out of his blinds box and makes up a charge to finish the job. Now, he’s a tidy sort of chap (a Virgo in astrological terms) so likes to keep things organised: he has a short bit of safety fuse which is, really, too short, or a long piece which would need cutting, leaving him afterwards with two short pieces. So, he decides he’ll keep the long piece for another day and use up the short piece, but, not to worry, yes, it will go off before he gets back to the safety point, but he’ll be far enough away for that to be of no consequence! He lights the fuse, packs up his box and scrambles out of the pit to walk nonchalantly back to the rest of the Troop. Or, at least, that is what is supposed to happen. What actually happens is that he gets to the rim of the pit which is deep, steep and slimy chalk, and then… loses his footing and slips all the way back down into the pit ending up not far from the fizzing fuse on the mine! This is not good news. Now, it is absolutely NOT the done thing EVER to run on a demolition range – extremely bad form! But, on this occasion, the young fella, after a quick glance at the mine, realises he has seconds to get clear. He grabs his box, grabs his beret (I said he was a tidy chap) and comes out of that pit like a bullet! Clearing the lip of the pit he throws himself to the ground covering his head with his blinds box (not that that would do much good as it is nothing more than a small, tin ammo box, just as .... Back at the safety point all are watching, seeing nothing until the Troop Commander suddenly appears over the lip of the pit like a cork from a champagne bottle. Now, the Troop Staff Sergeant was tall, gaunt, extremely cool and the spitting image of Lee Van Cleef in one of the Spaghetti Westerns (and I think he rather knew that and developed the persona just a bit). He is standing, steady on his feet with a small cigar in his mouth. One of the young sappers, well aware of the rules and seeing the Troop Commander clearly disregarding them at some speed, calls out, “Why’s he running, Staff?” With that there’s a bloody great bang and about half a ton of chalk rises high into the air and, coming down, much of it lands on top of Troopy. Staff takes his cigar out of his mouth and says, laconically, “That’s why he’s running, son!” Happy to say, Troopy, pride notwithstanding, was undamaged and all had a more interesting tale of the day to tell their friends in the NAAFI that evening!

Yes, it was. It certainly wasn't for a radio - there was all the dexion and gubbins in the back for that. I agree that it was an awkward place to put a jerrican, but, when you're already sitting on a petrol tank, I don't suppose having another 4 1/2 gallons next to you is much of an issue, particularly as a jerrican is a very secure and robust means of carrying fuel! Though, of course, you could put a water jerrican there instead. But, as I said, I never saw it used for a jerrican - most Land Rovers had trailers and the jerricans, of petrol, (later diesel) water and kerosene (for the Aladdin stoves which were then issued) used to be put in there - out of the way. As for the Champ, I don't think there was any specific limitation as to what the jerrican at the rear carried - petrol would have made sense as most military vehicles were expected to have a reserve of fuel onboard somewhere and this would have been a carry-over from the Jeep. The only one where it seems always to be consistently water rather than fuel is on the back of Centurion turrets, but that makes sense as a jerrican isn't going to be much use as a reserve of petrol for one of those and water close at hand for a brew would be useful.

It does look a bit cocked up, certainly. I never quite understood why that feature was introduced on Series 3 Land Rovers - nor why it had such a complicated fixing arrangement at the top - I never saw one actually used to hold a jerrican - it was just in the way. The holder was more usually the repository of the works ticket and the driver's pullover!

Yes, I have spent a few draughty and damp days up at Casterley! One particular occasion I recall - the civilian Bedford drivers used to refuse to go into the safety trench when we did the firing - they preferred to sit in their cabs eating their sandwiches. They'd 'seen it all before' and, being 1000m away, were perfectly safe - taking cover was only for wimps and those who had to do as they were told. Anyway, on this occasion a Mk7 underneath the remains of a Ferret went off. A small black dot appeared in the distance. above the dems pit. It grew bigger and bigger as we watched it - and as it headed towards the Bedfords. In seconds, the drivers were out of their cabs and running like hell as a piece of armour plate, probably about a metre across, came spinning just over the top of one of the Bedfords with a sound like an express train and eventually came to ground several hundred yards further on! I think one of the drivers even spilled his tea!

Not London buses, but you wait a long time then two turn up at once. This picture is of a Morris 1100 MkII at Checkpoint Charlie, Berlin with a captain and a sergeant from the Coldstream Guards. The car is, I suspect, from the Brigade Tpt Coy RCT (it's post-1965) 21 on blue/yellow. Picture was on Pinterest with no credits.

So, we're into XK - not many more to go!

http://www.brixmis.co.uk/ Here's a relevant link for BRIXMIS, their cars, Opels, VWs G Wagens, etc and, in a nice link to the other recent thread, mention of their first tour vehicles - Humber FWDs painted maroon!

Thank you for digging these out, and very German 'Js' they are too! What a fascinating collection of photos. I had seen the Jeep photos before, but not the VW ones. Interestingly, the Military Police and their RAF equivalent were very keen on being photographed weren't they! By proportion, there must be more photos of Service police vehicles about than those of any other branch.

Thanks for that, I must say, I had forgotten that he had two! I presume one ended up at Beverley as it remained 'on the books' well after the war as 16YF67.

I know that was the case after the war, but Monty had his gloss black Roller during the war (it was a gift, apparently). But I was just wondering about the gloss black being used by the RMP on their Mungas and Land Rovers in Berlin. And thank you for the extract from Equipment Regulations 1959 - but, I bet there are exceptions - again, has anyone a photo of any 'X' reg after XH?

I have the Chilwell list for WW2 from 1945, but are later ones available commercially?

I have looked again at the photo and according to the chap who submitted it - Eric Heath who was with 2 Div Pro Coy at the time stationed at Bunde, it was a fore-runner of the 'White Mice' - a SOXMIS chase car. I'm slightly intrigued by the fact that RMP vehicles in Berlin were gloss black. I read somewhere that when Monty used his Rolls Royce (rather than his Humber), which was, of course, gloss black and highly polished, his RMP escort Jeeps were also gloss black. Certainly a possibility and may be the origins of the tradition. Of course, Monty wasn't based in Berlin, he was in Bad Oeynhausen, so I might be adrift with that. Does anyone else know?

According to a list I have --XG-- was used by the CWGC on the continent - whether exclusively in Germany or not, I don't know. I have no photos going beyond XH, but the list claims that it went up to XL and then was gapped until XZ. The Range Rovers which BRIXMIS used before the G Wagens retired to Depot INT CORPS at Ashford where they were used for training. I don't think the G Wagens were - perhaps they were disposed of locally, (though one ended up in the museum).

Here's another interesting photo of an Opel on the strength of 2 Div Pro Coy, this time a tourer. Note the --XB-- ERM. Again, another photo from BAOR Locations. It is interesting as this vehicle clearly isn't being used in Berlin or by the Berlin Brigade so, I presume, as this predates the end of the 'Occupation' of Germany - pre-Bundeswehr, etc, then, if a vehicle was bought locally it received an --X?-- ERM. Perhaps, Wally, you can add to that? It is well before my time.

Yep, I bet you're right. When I looked at the photo, I thought to myself then, if I write Opel, it'll be a Ford and vice versa. If you look carefully at the grille, I think it says Kapitan on it, but why there is no Opel (or Ford!!) badge, I don't know. I expect it had an uprated engine like the RMP 'White Mice' - the Opels they used for following SOXMIS, or, indeed, the BRIXMIS Opels. It might even be a 'retired White Mouse' enjoying a second, and less demanding, life.

It was all to do with paying for the 'forces of occupation', I understand. By this time, West Germany was simply a NATO member and BAOR was part of the NATO force, but Berlin was different - there, still, the USA, France, the Soviet Union and the UK were Occupying Powers. Nor was the Berlin Brigade part of BAOR. Anyway, the costs of the garrison, therefore, were paid for, as reparations, by the Federal Government - the British Army referred to it as 'the Berlin Budget'. The result was, of course, that the Germans supplied the Berlin Brigade where they could with German-sourced vehicles - the VWs, the Mungas, Mercs, Unimogs, Magirus Deutz and so on. All this stuff had the --X?-- ERM. The other anomaly was British kit used by HQ NORTHAG at Rheindahlen - their stuff carried Bundeswehr-style ERMs, but, instead of a Y prefix had an X, if I remember rightly. There was a similar arrangement at the NATO HQs in Bruunsum as I remember as well. As you say, though, am sure there were plently of anomalies - there always are with large organisations. Incidentally - yesterday I came across an old visitors' guidebook for the Museum of Army Transport at Beverley - an interesting read, I'd forgotten I had it.

Here's one post-war from RAF Jever in 1952 courtesy Edward McKeirnan from the BAOR Locations website: The picture above shows the contributor driving a tractor, during an alarm fearing attack from the Russians. Edward McKeirnan, No 4 Squadron, RAF Jever, BAFO 1952

I came across this photo this evening on the BAOR Locations website. It was taken by a chap called George Frost, to whom credits, therefore, belong. It is from the troops occupying Austria, though, I suspect, those aren't them in the picture! Shame the light has hidden the markings.

Having a browse on the internet this evening, I came across these two photos which were taken by a Mr David Wood, formerly an RMP policeman. They show the RMP Checkpoint at the western end of the autobahn where it left West Germany, to pass through East Germany to Berlin. During the period of the Cold War all military vehicles were checked in at each end and their passage through East Germany monitored for safe arrival at the other end. It is interesting as I was previously unaware that the British Army had any BMC1100/1300s! Here is one with an 'XB' ERM - signifying that it was bought on the 'Berlin Budget' rather than through conventional MoD sources as vehicles belonging to BAOR were and, of course, it is marked as a Berlin Brigade vehicle with a '28' on black AOS sign signifying a brigade pro coy RMP. Note the blue light on the roof! The second of his photos shows the car used for 'the sweep' of the autobahn - which the RMP used to ensure there were no missing or broken down vehicles stranded in the East. I'm not sure what type that is - a Ford Taunus, perhaps? As I say, the photos are courtesy Mr David Wood and appear on the 'BAOR Locations' website: https://www.baor-locations.org/sitemap.aspx.html

I'd say that the paint on the back of the bracket is a faded deep bronze green - which it ought to be if the vehicle received a serious overhaul in the 50s as, by then, DBG was back in as the standard and remained so until the beginning of the 70s. A base overhaul would probably guarantee a respray and that would be DBG. By the mid 50s, the only vehicles which would have remained in WW11 colours would be old ones which had been in store (like the SCC2 Daimlers I mentioned, which were then taken out and issued to the TA), in SCC15 for the same reason or for newer vehicles built post-war but before the DBG standard returned, basically late 40s stuff (including, for example, some Centurions). However, as with all this stuff there will always be exceptions and I can remember Searchlight generator trailers in service in 1979/80 with faded 'Mickey Mouse Ear' camouflage still on their tilts! And WWII 'teddy-bear suits' and leather jerkins remained in G1098 stores long after that!

Thanks Adrian for your comment and I am very much aware that your experience in these matters is considerably greater than mine and that I am probably being a bit pedantic. I can't disagree with your comment: "If modern paint manufactures can't always perfectly match each others colours, I'm not sure why some are so sure of the accuracy of colour 80 years ago", not least because many paints still required mixing in those days. So, no, one cannot be sure of the accuracy of tone of these paints, but nor is it correct simply to accept that SCC15 was BS381c298 and look no further, because that isn't so, even though it might be a reasonable match for all but the purist. As for your second point, SCC15 came, not from BS381c, but from a different BS range - BS987c, so-called 'War Emergency Camouflage Colours' so there need be no direct correlation between the olive drab which was SCC15 and any subsequent BS381c paint of the same name - particularly as, by that time, olive drab as a term was in common usage and described US military paints as well (which also vary markedly in shade over time). But, even with the BS381c palette, there are differences over the years, even with the same number - deep bronze green, for example, has changed from the very dark tone of the pre-war DBG with various balances of blue and yellow creating some quite varied shades, even before application and weathering is taken into account. Things are improving, there is an increasing interest in accuracy, but late in the day, and two post-war generations have grown up with little idea what colour British military vehicles were painted in WW2. Nor, I think, is it appreciated just how short a lifespan these colours had: G3 and SCC2 perhaps two years each and SCC15 four, notwithstanding, of course, that old schemes remained on vehicles long after they were officially declared obsolete. You mention Service Brown as being SCC2, but I have always understood Service Brown to be the shade in which ammo boxes are painted a rich, dark, true brown. SCC2 didn't receive a formal name (other than some vague reference to tea!) and is closer to a 'dark earth' without the richness of a real brown. And, as I say above, it lasted for little more than a couple of years, whereas Service Brown precedes WW2 and remains in use today. But even exhibits at Bovington, where you might have thought they'd get it right, in my childhood were very poorly and inaccurately finished, which was a shame, as the continuity from their wartime colours was lost often under garish nonsense. Elsewhere other museums have struggled. Look at the extraordinary way Montomery's two Humbers have been turned out over the years, both in overall finish and in the markings they have received. One might have thought such iconic vehicles might have warranted some degree of care, but, no, apparently not, 'Old Faithful' spent many years in a coat of sand-sprinkled muddy green! RAF vehicles are another area where things get a bit ropey - there is a profusion of RAF blue/grey on the circuit when the evidence would point to one or more of the SCC colours having actually been applied. And, sadly, markings all too often seem equally random - but all must have a poppy and a large Union Jack! I shouldn't be surprised to hear something from Clive on this subject - I know he has some clear ideas about how his garish (but accurate) green RUC Shorland was viewed by many not in the know!

A mere amateur - this is how it's done!