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BOBC1940

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  1. Hi, Thats some change from the Mercedes 320 to the flat faceted Caffiers vehicle. If I had bought a kit of the 320 I wouldnt know where to start ! Doors, wheel arches, wheels, boot windscreen, bodywork sides, all to go, thats almost all the car ! I am aware of the Britmodeller article, thanks. I look fwd to even getting time to start it. As fast as I get one task almost done another intervenes and takes over, only to in turn be gazumped by another. I buy a mobile phone and then lose 3 days trying to resolve faults with it, just to find out what truly is at fault so as to get the seller to fix all of it, one cannot say I think its got faults fix them, as one explores more faults come to the fore. This alone will nuke 6 days of my time, and so it goes on. Buying something not fit for purpose with 'no returns' written on the sales form. Hey Ho. Cupboard full of models and other humans wrecking plans again. Major surgery needed on the kits for this, glad there is no deadline. BOBC
  2. Thank you Rob T, VERY USEFUL having an ortho view will help in establishing proportions of the build and mating the three 1/35 kits I now have together. Mercedes Sd.Kfz.1 Type 170 VK GERMAN ADLER Kfz. 13 ARMORED CAR front arches MITTLERER EINHEITS PERSOENKRAFTWAGEN m.E.Pkw Kfz 12 Early Version I still need to source the hubs as on the Caffiers photo though. and stop other unseen tasks from keep nuking my modelling time. BOBC
  3. Hi ted, So as such , that fits with Mike Starmer who says A=B and C=D Snap ! BOBC1940
  4. Hi, my data above says:- A. PFU Dark Tarmac No.4 B. Nobels Dark Tarmac No.4 C. army's 'Dark Green No.4' D. RAF Nobel Tarmac Green 4 (stores 33A/548) So is your Nobels Tarmac Dark Green the colour D ? as I dont see that particular word string of 'nobels tarmac dark green' in A B C or D. and these four have been through the Mike Starmer vetting process 🙂 If it is D then that fits with Mike Starmer who says A=B and C=D Trouble is we have the words Nobel Dark Tarmac Green No.4 and they can be mixed and matched if not careful so forming another variation in words only ! Cheers BOBC1940
  5. Hi Guys. Essential reading for this thread, RAF VEHICLE AND GROUND EQUIPMENT COLOURS OF WW2 by Mike Starmer with extra notes by myself gleaned from Mike :- Mike Starmer had written an article on the MAFVA website some time ago, here it is, along with Colourcoats paints carefully matched to an original paint chip chart of these colours, so acquiring the tinlets and painting out will reveal the colours these names refer to. For Nobels Tarmac Green (Nobels is in fact a paint manufacturer so the colour is that less the name) for reasons below, suggested matches at the moment are Revell enamel 78 and Humbrol enamel 32 :- As for Nobels Tarmac Mike Starmer has yet to see an actual in the hand sample, an archives in Canada has such but wont take it to daylight to view, taking a photo of it would need a colour calibration card in the photo and a decent dSLR set to Adobe RGB which captures more colours than sRGB, a setting to be had on any dSLR and perhaps also more pocketable cameras. I have acquired these tinlets and plan on painting them all out ! The colour text has come in from my word doc where it helped spot references to the same colours in the article ! R.A.F. GROUND VEHICLE COLOURS. In AMO A364/37 [1937] a new colour was introduced for all R.A.F. ground vehicles, BS.33 R.A.F. Blue Grey. It replaced all previous colours such as ‘khaki’ on UK based vehicles. Ambulances overseas were to be white whilst all other vehicles in Iraq except ambulances were to be khaki. An amendment in A100 5/38 states that in Iraq armoured cars, armed tenders and W/T tenders will be khaki too. In 1939 A.M. issued instructions that all R.A.F. vehicles were to be disruptively painted. No documents thus far confirm the colours used, but presumably those as the army. Odd disjointed file notes from TNA have the following:- 28 March 1939; R.A.F. have decided to use the same colours as the army in ME, but RE & Signals Board not yet decided on colour for Iraq, Palestine and ME. 6 February 1941. Camouflaging of MT in Overseas Commands. Colours specified in CWD Specifications are Dark Sand and Middle Stone. The sample of painted lorry cover that we received… ‘was much darker than the earlier colour’. This follows G.O.370 of 1939. This situation remained officially till August 1941. Nevertheless instructions had been issued in Britain during 1939 to disruptively paint transport. Photographs of some R.A.F. vehicles in France during early 1940 and on some airfields in the South of England from June 1940 onwards show that disruptive painting on ground vehicles deployed on airfields within reach of enemy aircraft or observation. No accurate colours are known for these vehicles but in France, British army colours may have been used but the possibility of French colours must be taken into account. A TNA file has a note dated 19 November 1940; ‘…camouflage paint has not hitherto been included in R.D.M.T. Specifications for M.T. vehicles for the R.A.F. and units have, we understand, obtained their own supplies by local purchase’. Followed by ‘The canvas tilts of those vehicle leave the manufacturers dyed khaki and unpainted…’. So there was authority to camouflage vehicles prior to the next known AMO. In England, army colours is possible by local arrangement or a range of green, brown, black or grey building paints may have been used in random striped type designs similar to army applications. In June 1941 a signal N629/41 calls for camouflage of impressed vehicles. No further documents have yet been found to clarify this signal regarding colours. From now on AMOs mirror War Office policy. AMO A618/41 of 7 August orders R.A.F. vehicles to be a basic colour of Khaki Green No.3 with Nobels Dark Tarmac Green No.4 or alternatively Light Green No.5 as disrupters patterned as M.T.P.20 of 1939. August 1942, AMO A820/42; colours will now be Camouflage Green No.3 and paint PFU Dark Tarmac No.4. Do not be baffled by the different colour names as will be explained later. The camouflage style now is as M.T.P. 46/4A by then in general use by the War Office. Since R.A.F. vehicle wastage is far less than the army then earlier colours and schemes tended to be in use for far longer before repainting to current standards took place, keep this in mind. There is a coloured photograph of a F.A.A. David Brown tractor in Khaki Green No.3 towing a Blue Grey fuel trailer in 1943. December 1942: AMO A1397/42; a change of basic colour to Brown Special No.2 and Brown Dark (MT) No.1A to M.T.P. 46/4A. September 1943: AMO A891/43; basic colour is still Brown Special No.2 but now with Black Matt S.C.C. No.14 application to M.T.P. 46/4A. This remains the scheme until 1944. (my note.. S.C.C means Standard Camouflage Colours, (1941-42 – Standard Camouflage Colours (S.C.C.s) from BS.987c come into use alongside, and then supplanted the greens and Dark Tarmac ) 8 June 1944: AMO A519/44; changes the basic colour to ‘Olive Drab’ (my note this is NOT the same as USA olive drab) with Black Matt S.C.C. No.14 disrupter to M.T.P. 46/4A. However a September AMO A/897 dispenses with the Black disrupter and vehicles will now be in the basic colour only. Many R.A.F. vehicles not used on airfields such as on radar and signal sites carried no sort of disruptive painting, they remained the plain basic colour throughout their lives. Those with the 2nd Tactical Air Forces MT service commando columns were generally in full camouflage patterning. This scheme remains until April 1946 with AMO A302/46, when a reversion to pre-war colours and finishes was introduced, the colours both now full gloss BS.33 R.A.F. Blue Grey with gloss Black wings (mudguards) and valences. As before there was a large overlap of schemes through 1943-50. There are photographs of R.A.F. and army vehicles in use in Germany during the Berlin airlift of 1948-49 still in 1943 type camouflage colours and scheme. As in all matters within the services each used its own stores reference numbers to identify and order every item required, including paint. The R.A.F. had its own terminology for the same army colours hence the terms used in AMOs. Camouflage Green No.3 is the same colour as Khaki Green No.3. Khaki Green No.3 is the same name and colour for both services. (Sovereign Colourcoats ARB03 – Khaki Green 3 £2.50 14ml model paint colour matched to original chart ) Nobels Dark Tarmac No.4 is the same name and colour again. (my note..can’t be Khaki Green No3 as it was a contrasting disrupter over that so ???) Light Green No.5 is the same name and colour again. (my note..as what ?) Paint PFU Dark Tarmac No.4 is the same colour as Nobels Dark Tarmac No.4. PFU means Prepared For Use. Which means that nothing needs to be added to the liquid at all, simply stir thoroughly and use. This term was used to differentiate between paint types as it was common practice at the time to add proportions of concentrate pigment to a base colour in order to achieve a specific colour matched to a company catalogue. Brown Special No.2 is the same colour as S.C.C. 2 (brown) (Sovereign Colourcoats ARB05 Dark Earth (BS987C S.C.C No.2 ) £2.50 14ml model paint colour matched to original chart ) Brown Dark (MT) No.1A is the same colour as S.C.C.1A (dark brown). (Sovereign Colourcoats ARB15 Very Dark Brown (BS987C SCC No 1A £2.50 14ml model paint colour matched to original chart ) Black Matt S.C.C. No.14, the same as S.C.C. 14 (blue-black). (Sovereign Colourcoats ARB16 Blue Black disruptive (BS987C SCC No 14 £2.50 14ml model paint colour matched to original chart ) Olive Drab is the same colour as S.C.C.15 Olive Drab. Make no mistake; this colour is NOT a match for the American colour of that name. (Sovereign Colourcoats ARB19 - Olive Drab (BS987C S.C.C No.15 (revised) ) £2.50 14ml model paint colour matched to original chart ) Analysing this I have given ABCD to paints as follows:- A. PFU Dark Tarmac No.4 B. Nobels Dark Tarmac No.4 C. army's 'Dark Green No.4' D. RAF Nobel Tarmac Green 4 (stores 33A/548) A & B are basically black. Humbrol 32 dark grey is close, this has a slight green tinge. C & D are both the same dark green. Mike says A = B and C=D and that AB =/= CD (or in english AB does not match to CD) Canadian sample is AB. The Staff car parked nose to building is CorD, Dark Green. (actual text from Mike). Hendon archives have this (source Mike Starmer) A.618/41 on vehicles Khaki Green No.3 with Nobels Tarmac Green 4 (stores 33A/548) or Light Green 5: [No stores numbers are included for KG3 or Lt.Green.] A.820/42 on vehicles paint, camouflage , green, (stores 33A/527) basic with paint, PFU, dark, tarmac, No.4 (stores 33A/548). Note 4. Distemper, tarmac, green, (stores 33A/528) is declared obsolete but must be used until stocks are exhausted. The next one is about the change of colours to the MTP.46 /4A scheme using SCC.2 brown and SCC.1A dark brown, but has this note. A.1397 Item 4. Paint, camouflage, green, No.3 (stores 33A/527) and distemper, tarmac, green, No.4 (stores 33A/528, will continue to be issued and used until present stocks are exhausted. From these it seems that the army's Dark Green No.4 is the RAF Nobel Tarmac Green 4 (stores 33A/548) thus this and Dark Tarmac No.4 are different colours. The army Khaki Green No.3 (G3) is RAF 'Paint, camouflage , green, No.3 (stores 33A/527) '. The distemper 33A/528 , is I think, the bituminous emulsion version for canvas only of Nobel Tarmac Green 4 (stores 33A/548) Enamel paint rotted canvas. ....... so there we have it, takes some getting the head around ! Really needs a pictorial with the actual colours and all this needing assimilating into a definitive text. Cheers BOBC1940
  6. Hi Guys. 4. Genuine colour, I have looked at this CAREFULLY unless the coloriser was in a totally different league to all those so far seen, there is so much evidence against colourising, little areas of grime, subtle differences in hue, in many nooks and crannies, even the trees, the buildings, deposits of beige, grime, in corners, locking j bolts areas with expected deposits, inner faces of front wheels, effect of dirt on tyres inner faces, no colouriser thinks that deep and then some ! 7. Albion AM463 with Spitfire has Nobels Tarmac Green as disruptive camo (cab roof one area) over Khaki Green No3. 8. have I a date and place, will have to see if I can find where this came from, it was seen on a recent'ish TV prog. BOBC1940
  7. Hi, LarryH57 and Ted Angus, worth the wait ! these are the images (THEY GO BIGGER IF CLICKED) you are after from DIG1940 rare GENUINE COLOUR home movie 601 Sqdn 1940. The vehicle in the background is an Albion AM463 350 Gallon 3 Boom refueller (such as I was trying to find an interested party in acquiring the project off the owner when I was faced with the chance of restoring one ). It doesnt look like its in the paint of the Hurricanes. That moment lasts a sec or so , so well spotted. I also add here shots of the Hurricanes as well as a Starter Trolley then the lorry from that movie ( can I get confirmed, thats a Fordson 7V, is that correct ?) , very important photos of the green and brown its in for those wishing to see colour photos of 1940 RAF vehicles, then other shots of RAF blue grey, followed by green brown Brockhouse 450 gallon towed bowser (Tracked Fordson doing the towing), a front view of another Albion AM463 with Spitfire (in Nobels Tarmac Green and Khaki Green 3) , another lorry then staff car (both in same movie clip one after the other), a Fire appliance (not in red !) , and later war David brown tractors. ENJOY ! Aviation historians, modellers etc, note the green/brown of the Bristol Bombay compared to the Hurricanes, subject for another thread ! compare extracts from photos:- Albion's brown not like any other brown in the same movie or elsewhere, but similar to the head on shot with RAF crew at right, of a vehicle in Nobels Tarmac Green wavy camouflage. Ted confirms my thoughts on that Matador, 'fictional', thats not normal RAF Blue Grey unless there was a special order that the construction batch were to be that odd 'un military' colour ! A lot of effort is involved in painting a vehicle so to know more the story of how that colour was arrived at would be good to know. I have seen pale blue but after 80 yrs it appears to have been faded over time. BOBC1940
  8. Hi, Back on my To Do list, and I have some other rare colour images. Little chance this week but I shall see what I can do as soon as time allows. BOBC1940
  9. As asked before......Assuming we are seeing the vehicle colour truly as it is, and no strange camera quirk, I am not aware of any AM order that says there is also another RAF blue grey which is this cyan sky blue colour. I have data from Mike Starmer and nothing in that about a pale light blue for the RAF. The RAF Blue Grey may well fade to that colour over time, bleached by the sun, but its definitely not in standard RAF Blue Grey. Are you saying that contract S8202/3 was to be in a non standard light blue ? If so why was that decreed when normally standard Blue Grey was to be used ? Do you know of the research that went into this odd colour ? Who's vehicle is it ? I tried to find another photo of it by a different camera but couldnt see this restored vehicle in google images at all. BOBC1940
  10. Hi, I had forgotten this thread so must get around to painting out the 'post war' RAF blue grey and applying matt and satin varnishes. I did wet the 'OX' at the time to account for gloss etc and still saw a hue difference compared to the Fordson tractor. As for the matador posted by Listerj123 , even allowing for the difficulty of truly seeing a colour on a monitor, albeit it I have a colour calibrated monitor so see colour as it should be compared to non calibrated monitors, it all depends on the camera in use, colours best judged before evening sun starts, this appears in daylight during showtimes, no yellowy sun at play, the pic looks somewhat saturated with the grass not looking normal but even so, the immediate cyan look of the matador has me saying, NO. I don't see RAF Blue grey getting to that light blue cyan colour unless the camera has an odd colour quirk going on. sky blue looks correct, tree etc. My reaction to that photo is , not RAF blue grey, prewar or postwar !
  11. Hi, I would also like to know, what happened to this Matador ? It is essential such history is saved, especially after such dedicated preservation. James would be a good home, I could try other contacts also. BOBC
  12. Hi Pat, I have messaged you again as this is vital to the future of this lovely vehicle and also all the airshow and filming potential it has. £££££££££££ BOBC
  13. Hi, I will get a sample painted out of the BS381 633 and then partition it off and make it matt using a matt that doesnt have white in it, (some model varnishes end up matting and whitening, black goes grey, whilst Galeria Matt makes black stay black). It wasnt that the Bedford is paler, but the hue is different, I am not aware of different surface matting causing colour hue change, only colour saturation and darkness change. If we wet the Bedford and it matches the fordson then proof they are the same colour, but I was seeing different hues. When I get 5 mins, I will post some pics, but Christmas prepping has a large gravitational pull and I cant get out of it. BOBC
  14. Hi Ted, I was there analysing it for a good hour, freshly applied paint was not what I saw at all, I could see areas that had peeled away, that had weathered over years, no areas that had been missed with the paint, I looked under the rear end for areas that had not perhaps faded in the sun and photographed it with a Kodak colour card, it was a tad darker, but not anywhere near the colour of the Fordson tractor parked several feet away which had been restored and repainted with a tin of the postwar RAF Blue grey a few years ago. The Bedford is in a matt with a slight sheen at most, the Fordson at least satin if not getting on towards gloss. They had acquired the Bedford in that paint it has and had not touched it at all, and if someone postwar had repainted it with the latest RAF blue grey it would have matched the Fordson, clearly they who had painted the Bedford in what year we dont know well before Lytham acquired it, had taken a tin of an earlier shade and used that. I have a sample of the paint used by Lytham on the Fordson tractor on a piece of metal , painted out from the same tin. They have a Type C Mk I modified bomb trolley also being repainted after restoration in the post war colour same tin source. Furthermore that Bedford also reminded me of the same colour I saw on one at Flambards in Cornwall decades ago. It also matched the colour I had exposed by peeling the yellow paint away on a W arm support from a Type B bomb trolley, they were the first trolleys in use in WW2. It is a less saturated colour and hasnt the hint of red about it, and is paler. I have photos of all this. It was like the colour of WW2 tunics which I also have to hand. The Fordson and my sample is darker and more blue with a hint of red. I will try and post the images, though photos cannot replicate what the eye sees and can lead to discussions on what they show detracting from actual comparison in daylight. BOBC
  15. Hi, Ted asks did anyone keep a copy of the rare colour movie 601 sqdn from Dig1940... yes I did, I will endeavour to post the photo from it when I get 5 mins. Jamie at Sovereign Hobbies Colourcoats does not dial in scale effect, his colours are matched to the colour swatch he has before him, I hate it when manufacturers do scale effect, AS THEY DONT KNOW WHAT SCALE A MODELLER IS WORKING TO ! I once stood 72ft away from rlm02 for 1/72 aircraft model to match full size aircraft, and it should have matched rlm02 with white added (I recall a Monogram book formula of 72%), anyhow it matched my increasing white addition mixes on....the original rlm02 ! Its another myth such as pre shading and sooty rivet lines. Early war RAF Blue Grey is not the same as the colour introduced at the end of the war, surviving example of a Bedford OX at Lytham St Annes Spitfire group is in prewar RAF Blue Grey, compare this to the fordson tractor repainted in post war blue grey ! and if you think its faded, look underneath the rear end. Furthermore WAAF on tractor towing an arc of Type B bomb trolleys, see how the blue grey is matching her tunic. Likewise other colour pics I have. RAF Blue grey post war certainly doesnt match WW2 tunics, far darker and a hint of red. I have peeled away paint on Bomb trolley to reveal same colour as that Bedford OX. BOBC
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