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BlueBelle

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Posts posted by BlueBelle

  1. Oh, I wish I did have something to tell you Ploughman of your interest 169 Rly Sqn Wksp ...... especially in Tripolitania and the 'keeping going' of the old Italian rail lines and stock running from Tripoli (four lines). The squadron would have been a Royal Engineers one and even the workshop too. An approach to the Royal Engineers Museum? It wasn't long before our army lost interest in keeping railways going (probably as early as 1951) as by 1956/7 with the Libyans in 'charge', it was a mere shadow of it's former glory with just a few diesel railcars running to a 'make it up as you go' timetable (one a day in either direction). Benghazi's railway lines out of the city to Barce and Solluch suffered a similar fate. The line from the Egyptian border to Tobruk was ripped out very soon after the war..... suggested by one article I fell upon by chance....prior to which I hadn't realised Tobruk had been served by a rail link from Egypt!  I can tell you lots about 79 Railway Sqn RCT Wksp REME....who were never in the desert! Yes, you had asked me before about 'trains in Libya' but I'm saddened I've not come up with anything useful for you..... or myself. I will try harder!

  2. Libya vehicle markings (and uniform patches) in a world of their own indeed! The above photo is one of a series of originals of that incident I have. However I think you may be reading too much into what you see around the white Rhino. The black-ish area is I believe, part of the camouflage applied onto which the Rhino was applied.....no need for the black oval perhaps. The blackishness of the camouflage varied all over the tanks.... some parts looking like freshly applied...almost wet, whilst others as varied shades of black into grey. Shadows played a big part too when tanks were photoed....leading one to think....ooh, another patch of camouflage. I can though dispel your theory that there was another marking adjacent to the Rhino.... it's just scuffing or fading. Here's a little of the front view of same tank 06BA09 (note the sloppy 50) and another part view of a Centurion with a shadow effect, Barce 1954:

    Centurion 06BA09 RSG gorge front markings .jpg

    RSG Centurion shadow.jpg

  3. Formation patches on vehicles in Libya did seem to have an extended expiry date, even when 10 Armd Div wound up in July 1957 those white Rhinos could still be seen as late as Oct 57. The winding up of 10 Armd Div also meant that it no longer remained in an Order of Battle, nor did any of the regiments or units of 25 Armd Bde or from elsewhere that had been taken in. Did 25 Armd Bde still exist now? No, it didn't. There was a period of several months where dithering occurred as to what Formation Libya based regiments and units should be in if any, compounded by a Defence Review and massive down-sizing of the Army in Libya (10,000 troops down to 2,000 in a matter of 12 months). To the end of 1957, vehicles could still be seen with the previous 'fighting' Formatiom rectangles with numbers (white numbers 50 etc on red rectangles for Armoured regiments of which there was now in Dec 1957, only one and that being 6RTR) and at the same point in time, the black oval was all that remained of the 25/10 Armd white Rhino for it had been blacked out. The new 'non-Order of Battle' markings began to appear late Jan/early Feb 1958.... the Red/Yellow RAC patch Arm of Service and white bar atop with abbreviated regiment name stencilled black stencilled therein. Tripolitania District Barbary dhow as a 'Formation' patch......shield shaped or rectangle depending on ....whims for Tripolitania based regiments....all two of them. The Cyrene Pillars were for units (only one complete regiment, INF) based in Cyrenaica post 1958 and even then, squadrons and companies from those few remaining regiments were forever being sent out of Libya on deployment. What remained post 1958 was really to provide  'protection' to the Libyan throne and to a lesser part, fulfill defence treaty obligations with the minimum of military and financial input.

    Higher formation for the Army in Libya had always been HQ MELF in either Egypt or Cyprus. With the 1957/8 near demise of the Army in Libya, the two Districts were formed/reformed (Tripolitania and Cyrenaica) under 'Malta and Libya Command' which reported to HQ MELF in Cyprus..... until formation of NELF as HQ MELF moved to the Gulf.

    Simon, you wrote elsewhere about white Rhinos and Cyrene Pillars being on the same vehicle at the same time. HQ units of 25 Armd Bde in both Cyrenaica and Tripolitania bore both Formation flashes and that also occured within 10 Armd Div. Oh yes, both sets of Formation markings and note which way that pesky Rhino to the front is facing in this press photo! 😆

    I have 30 or so original photos (non press owned) of the occasion...on the parade ground with a myriad of interesting Bedford QLR-type lorries and recording/pa system equipment.

    HM Queen Tobruk 1954-Rhino-Cyrene District-HQ vehicle.jpg

  4. Oh yes, both sets of Formation markings and note which way that pesky Rhino to the front is facing in this press photo! 😆

    I have 30 or so original photos (non press owned) of the occasion...on the parade ground with a myriad of interesting Bedford QLR-type lorries and recording/pa system equipment. HQ units of 25 Armd Bde in both Cyrenaica and Tripolitania bore both Formation flashes as also occured within 10 Armd Div.

    HM Queen Tobruk 1954-Rhino-Cyrene District-HQ vehicle.jpg

  5. 25 Armd Bde were formed in Libya in 1952 post exodus of 1 Inf Div, and adopted the similar white Rhino symbol or Formation marking of the defunct 1 Armd Div....which was the non-rampant white Rhino on a black oval exactly as now seen on the uniform shoulder patches below. 10 Armd Div was uregently reformed in Libya around May 1956, incorporating 25 Armd Bde. It made sense not to revitalise the 'dead' fox of the previous 10 Armd Div and instead incorporate the white Rhino on a black oval of the subsumed 25 Armd Bde as the Formation flash.... worn on uniforms, vehicles, stationery, notice boards etc. On tanks, vehicles etc; the white Rhino appeared on a black oval, no surrounding white ring or other adornment. On tank and vehicle fronts, the Rhino always seems to have faced to the left as looked at from in front whereas on the rear the Rhino faced which ever way the signwriter chose. It follows therefore, that the RSG, based in Barce, were in the formation of 25 Armd Bde as were many other regiments and units throughout the then M.E.L.F. The RSG at that time were the senior armoured regiment of the brigade and as such their tanks and vehicles bore an Arm of Service marking to reflect their position.... a white 50 on a red rectangle. All those regiments in theatre at that time were subsumed into the 'new' 10 Armd Div which in reality at first, was only a slightly expanded Brigade. When 10 Armd Division came to be disbanded after a nominal year of existence.... units in Tripolitania adopted the black/white/blue Barbary Dhow as the formation marking (shield or rectangle) for Tripolitania District. Units in Cyrenaica adopted the twin white-ish pillars of Cyrene on a black rectangle as the formation marking of Cyrenaica District. Uhmmm, no, I'm not presenting photos of the RSG in Libya Centurions, Halftracks, Champs and suchlike here either so its just the Rhinos.☺️

    25 Armoured Brigade  and 10 Armoured Division white rhino RH arm.jpg

    25 Armoured Brigade-10 Armoured Division white rhino-LH arm.jpg

    • Like 2
  6. May I enquire as to the source of your information please?  Surely not Wiki?  Some facts that may help with your research. I too am a researcher of the British Army in Libya post WW2. 25 Armd Bde were formed in Libya in 1952 post exodus of 1 Inf Div, and adopted the similar white Rhino symbol or Formation marking of the defunct 1 Armd Div....which was the non-rampant white Rhino on a black oval exactly as now seen on the uniform shoulder patches below. 10 Armd Div was uregently reformed in Libya around May 1956, incorporating 25 Armd Bde. It made sense not to revitalise the 'dead' fox of the previous 10 Armd Div and instead incorporate the white Rhino on a black oval of the subsumed 25 Armd Bde as the Formation flash.... worn on uniforms, vehicles, stationery, notice boards etc. On tanks, vehicles etc; the white Rhino appeared on a black oval, no surrounding white ring or other adornment. On tank and vehicle fronts, the Rhino always seems to have faced to the left as looked at from in front whereas on the rear the Rhino faced which ever way the signwriter chose. It follows therefore, that the RSG, based in Barce, were in the formation of 25 Armd Bde as were many other regiments and units throughout the then M.E.L.F. The RSG at that time were the senior armoured regiment of the brigade and as such their tanks and vehicles bore an Arm of Service marking to reflect their position.... a white 50 on a red rectangle. All those regiments in theatre at that time were subsumed into the 'new' 10 Armd Div which in reality at first, was only a slightly expanded Brigade. When 10 Armd Division came to be disbanded after a nominal year of existence.... units in Tripolitania adopted the black/white/blue Barbary Dhow as the formation marking (shield or rectangle) for Tripolitania District. Units in Cyrenaica adopted the twin white-ish pillars of Cyrene on a black rectangle as the formation marking of Cyrenaica District. Hope this helps rather than hinder. I may copy this post to put it where in really belongs on here....yes, you know where!

    25 Armoured Brigade  and 10 Armoured Division white rhino RH arm.jpg

    25 Armoured Brigade-10 Armoured Division white rhino-LH arm.jpg

  7. Oh yes, 16th Signal Regiment it is! Good, Wally spot on, as usual, hurrah! Put 16th Signal Regiment in the machine and lots of results to show the patch as them...... though still not a photo to be found by me of a 16th Sigs Regt member wearing either versions of the patch. Do you know what, it's getting harder to see 'at a glance' on my machine, soldier photos in DPM combat suits.... it's all this uber-modern scruffy stuff. A far cry from smart KDs & BDs ....of 1 Inf Div, 25 Armd Bde, 10 Armd Div, MELF, Tripolitania District, Cyrenaica District, Malta & Libya Command. HaHa!

  8. Blue+White = Royal Signals, yes. But why 16 R.Sigs? Why 12 Armd Bde? How do you know? Looking at every permutation of web images for those two Formations, there are no Formation flashes that remotely match the one on your jacket. Hmm, where to next? I did think at one stage the patch photo was upside down, so twist and flip image this way and that, including the ones in the link (which didn't paste in as a proper live link.... apologies). One thing though, many units are now allowed their own 'private' non-higher formation approved regimental/squadron/troop patches to be attached to combat uniforms.... the latest to do so, the 1st QDG ,are running competitions to design such for at this stage, different squadrons. Your jacket predates this practice.

    Though I cannot disprove your deduction, I cannot say RM, Commando or anything else either! Oh bother! It was so simple in the deserts of Libya and surrounds!

  9. With a handle of BlueBelle..... think about it..... I can say beyond doubt that the colourful TRF (Tactical Recognition Flash) is that of REME (Royal Electrical & Mechanical Engineers) and, we're viewing correctly, the TRF left to right. The other patch is 'something' Royal Marine or Army Commando..... though what is perplexing is that it's an upsidedown dagger! I trawled the web and found no evidence of such a patch being available or worn, except a picture from a badge dealer of....the same upsidedown dagger patch but when opening up the shop, there's no such badge or reference to it, see link google results here: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=trf+commando+black+green+patch&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjN0r-xhojsAhWxiZ4KHY_fDcwQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=trf+commando+black+green+patch&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1CAlwVYtakFYK2uBWgAcAB4AIABV4gB7AKSAQE1mAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=0thvX82hFrGT-gSPv7fgDA&bih=633&biw=1280#imgrc=pPImmF0FdO6qgM

    With the REME TRF as well, I suspect the jacket belonged to a REME person in an Equpment Support Squadron of the Commando Logistic Regiment...the unit dealing with recovery and 2nd Line Repairs..... RM (Royal Marines) tradespersons ably assisted by REME of the same/similar ilk. I don't believe the dagger patch is representative of any of the other elements of the RLC (Royal Logistics Corps) within the Commando Logistic Regiment (no REME attached ) nor of any of the Commando Artillery or Engineer elements. Not knowing anything much about the RM of recent years, I'll exit here. Now, if you want to know about the AWS (Amphibious Warfare Squadron) of the 50s and 60s in their Mediterranean exploits 'invading' Libya & Sardinia from LSLs, LCTs, Commando Carriers with RMs and Lt. Stone-coloured Centurion tanks from 14th/20th KOH, The Bays, 5RTR and 6RTR ..... then we could go further! Later, much later.

  10. 17 hours ago, john1950 said:

    Please calm down, Chill out. These pictures and the thread are fantastic. To an outsider one piece of sand looks like any other, it is only when people put there mark on it that it comes to life in a different way. Reminicences and place names get easily transposed in everyday life. They at least give a starting point. If anyone is going to use information it is up to them to check for unintentional errors that may have crept in. Kuno if English is not your mother tongue you are  doing a good job with it. Stay safe. Any more pictures of Diamond T's or Scammell Pioneer/Explorer Tank transporters please.

    Thanks for the words John. I am now chilled but just need to say that my research is thoroughly accurate and professional and when I've posted FACTS from my research, that's exactly what they are unless I expressly say to the contrary and plead for assistance.... as I have done where it comes to say.... B vehicle types at which point you the experts on those matters graciously step in. Some ghibli eh? ;)

    • Like 1
  11. On 12/13/2017 at 2:50 AM, Morris C8 said:

    Close up of two of the photos and one more of the water and petrol dump. That`s the lot.

      I do have other negs and photos but do not think they could be taken in Libya. just found out there taken in Egypt in 1955 post war.

               Keith

    air port military Libya 1950s close up 1.jpg

    bedford rl  f and s p 2 close up photo.jpg

    Sabha water petrol dump Libya photo.jpg

    Oh look, I can see both the aircraft hangar at Sebha and the fort on top of the high mound in this, the bottom photo which is most cleverly composed.

    • Like 1
  12. 14 hours ago, ltwtbarmy said:

    The thread might be fantastic, but it seems that most of the pictures have disappeared. Or is that just my ipad doing that?

    No, it's not your Ipad dear ltwbarmy, if you were to read the last few pages you'd understand why I've removed most of the photos. It saddened me to do so but their theft and reappearence elsewhere outside of this splendid forum left me no option. Sadly too, the experience deflated my eagerness to continue to invigorate this thread with more FACTS about the British Army in Tripolitania.

    Generally I've left it to others to add value to the thread but there's a point when I have to interject. I'll do so again now, for to counter a very misguided Kuno..... the FACTS are that the Toumo waterhole visited by Cyclops (and by 33 Ind Fd Sqn RE and other units previously) was and most probably still is, in the Tibesti Mountains .... as the official WD Maps, hand-drawn maps, route maps, exercise reports (from those who completed the exercise Crescent Moon and from official archives and from regimental journals) and photos that I have, all confirm. End of. Nothing further to add or argue about. Oh, nice photo of your 'much smaller than Sebha' Murzak aircraft hangar Kuno. You should have posted it earlier, perhaps. Apologies if I came at you like a desert vixen...... .

  13. On 7/22/2020 at 6:10 AM, Kuno said:

    Dear Keith - this appears to be the Italian hangar at the airfield of Murzuk. It was raided by the LRDG in early 1941...and still looks the same (at least it did about ten years ago when I was there last)

    Beg to differ. I am correct, it's a view of the hangar at Sebha in 1960.... taken from on high.... the fort at Sebha on the very high mound. The photos in Keith's series that I've been most fortunate to have been loaned for scanning were all taken by a Cyclops squadron 2RTR member as every photo depicts...... Cyclops. The locations of the series of photos depicts the two that Cyclops 'visited' early on in 1960...... Ex Starlight (they were umpires) at Tmimi (which my father went on), Cyrenaica and Ex Crescent Moon to the Fezzan -Toumo water hole in the Tibesti Mountains (which my father went on!). The route (I have both official 2RTR exercise reports and maps) to Toumo did not take the squadron anywhere near Murzak.

    I have seen online photos of the hangar at Murzak and...... it did not look like the one in the 2RTR photo. If you Kuno, in all of your 'expert' Libya travels seeking WW2/DAK or whatever 'stuff', say you saw the hangar at Murzak then why did you not photograph it given the opportunity and the historical importance of the structure.... even if scrap cars and goats were kept in it?

    I sometimes wonder how 'expert' you are in your Libya offerings? You got in wrong elsewhere in this thread where you thought the photo of the angled/pointy structure that had a wheel of a Scammell up against it was something you'd seen elsewhere many times and was perhaps... can't see it right now, something funerial or was it a milestone..... and again, something so unusual and of obvious historical importance that you'd not bothered photographing what you'd said you'd seen. Well, that structure has since proved to be an angled buttress wall of an Italian ammunition blockhouse/bunker designed to deflect vehicles/blasts affecting the blockhouse! And another thing, I've watched with interest the posts in your DAK forums arguing about the point where Tripoli's kilo 5 was, where it was measured from and to which barracks at kilo 5 the first DAK tanks were stationed at. It made sad reading but I kept going as I hoped to learn something positive from the forums...... about barrack names and locations in particular (I've also located every Italian/British barracks used before and after WW2 in Tripoli ... official Italian/German/British military maps.... and all to be seen on Google Earth!). I found out what I needed to know elsewhere by a scientific process of research! I know all that you were seeking in relation to your DAK. Research is everything Kuno, come on, do please up your game and give us all something worthwhile, please. Contradict me if you wish but best to back it up lest I shoot you down! 

  14. On 8/3/2019 at 11:04 AM, Chris marsh 1955 said:

    I came across this feed by accident, my father Staff Sargent George "Arty" Marsh RE was in Lybia mid 50's till 61 ish I believe, my 2 younger sisters were born there. Dad looked after a power station water pump somewhere near Leptis Magna if I remember the location correctly. He was seconded to the tank regiment there and have proof as me and my sister can be seen playing on them on some old 8mm cine film my dad took. There is also a massive parade in the desert with literally hundreds of military vehicles, tanks, ferrets, trucks etc etc. My email is chris_marsh2@sky.com, I could possibly send some footage in return some history on my dad I'd anyone new him.

    We are connected now ..... even though I'd not looked at this thread for 18 months! He has info, official docs and photos from me now. Happiness.

    • Like 3
  15. On 3/29/2020 at 3:06 PM, len lucas said:

    Hi, I hope you will excuse me for butting in on your site. I served in Tripoli in 1957/58/59 with X Plt TK-Tprs 38 Coy R A S C. based at Medenine Bks driving Diamond T units pulling dyson trailers. We served the Queens Bays at Sabratha and the 6 RTR at Homs . From memory they were both equiped with ceturion tanks. I do have a few photos that may be of interest. Thanks and many regards   23472848 Len Lucas

    Hello Len,

    I wonder if you had a big brother there same time as yourself? 22848487 Cpl Douglas Harold Lucas RASC 38 (MT) Coy RAMC? I have records for him, his wife and children born in Tripoli and baptised at Christ The King.

    I've messaged you privately but no response, perhaps you're not logging in to check for a response or that your settings are not selected to notify you by email that you've got a new message. It would be great to connect as I'd like to further my research on shifting Centurions around Tripolitania. One of your DTs tripped up the snake-bended Garian Pass carrying a 'German' Sexton SPG from Medenine Barracks to the desert location of the film 'Ice Cold in Alex'. Another DT from 'your place' would have taken the same Sexton, still in its DAK livery, from 595 Ord Depot RAOC Kassala Barracks to the range area on TA24. I have the photo and colour photos of the said Sexton, collected from your drop-off point, under tow by an ARV Mk1 of 6RTR south of Zliten (not Zavia as I first wrote!) to be placed as a hard target for the Centurions of 6RTR.... 1959. I know the commander of that ARV and, I know a Centurion gunner or two that shot at the Sexton. Rumoured the shattered hulk and bits were collected by an enterprising Arab from Zliten who put it back together, under a tent, with added bits from the many Stuart Gun Tractors, Dingos and Halftracks that littered those ranges!

  16. Here's another thing. Those two Sextons in the photos above are Mk2, not Mk1 in my book. Note the gun muzzle brake, the stowage boxes as part of the rear superstructure,  the Canadian bogies and Canadian dry pin (CDP) tracks. All Mk2 features though it's possible that stowage boxes apart, some of those features may have been on some of the 125 Mk1s built and supplied to the British. Over 2,300 Mk2s were built though I'm not sure if all went to Britain. Portugal got some for sure, India and probably Pakistan too. A shame we can't see the front transmission covers or other frontal formation markings.

    This source link is reasonable to get a grounding in Sextons though I bet there are better ones here on the forum, Wally. ;)  http://panzerserra.blogspot.com/2019/04/sexton-mki-25-pounder-spg-case-report.html

     

  17. P Battery. Can you see the 'white' Gothic letter 'P' up front top side of superstructure?  Pre-1952 VRNs unless the fuzz has affected my capabilty to interpret what I see. Facts so far.

    Various internet mumbo jumbo and contradictory 'stuff', even on 'official' sites is from where the following comes from. P Battery was part of 3RHA with 2Pdrs?, 3.7" guns? and most oddly, Sextons early 1940 up until early 1941 (when did the Sexton come into service, everyone asks? Mid-1943 I thought?) when the Battery was incorporated into 6RHA with, Sextons? ... India and Palestine? All articles trip over 6RHA, 6LAA and 6 Fd RA. Where's a 'proper' historian or compos mentis Gunner to be found when one wants one. Hope this helps though it would be much easier if you wanted to know about the post 1952 Lt Stone painted Sextons Mk2 of D, J and M Batteries 3RHA Egypt and Libya 10Armd Div...... I can 'do' them quite easily!

  18. ☺️

    15 hours ago, john1950 said:

    I wonder if Bluebell is watching this thread develop, Please keep the pictures coming.

    BlueBelle ..... she watches! This is the most interesting thread for ....... Egypt! There, you thought I was going to say "ages". Great when stuff like this comes to light and gets posted here. Thanks. 

    • Like 1
  19. The NZ Army in Libya WW2 used a similar device, the 'Thermette'. Google and ye shall see.

    The British Army has never, to my knowledge of them in Libya, ever had anything so 'sophisticated' though I'd be very happy to be otherwise verifiably informed. Improvisation seemed to be the game even when other means of boiling a billy (mess tin too) were available; nominally any small-medium sized metal drum or box, sometimes intentionally perforated, was dug a little way into the sand and then half-filled with sand and petrol (too hot!) or vehicle/gun oil (just right) and, this was the BENGHAZI BURNER. Even in the 1960s. Very useful in sandy climes but not recommended on heathland or in the woods.

  20. Take a look here: https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1727&context=tsaconf

    Dunlop. Neoprene rubber substitute. 'Camouflarge cloth' ....secret. Air Ministry Ballon Section built them, so did Shepperton Studios. Search Google widely and deeply and ye shall reap 'facts'.

    My interest is Force R, who whilst they were the masters of deception in WW2, were at some point brought back into play for the Cold War ...... certainly in Tripolitania in 1955 and as an overtly Royal Engineer unit were based in at least one regiment's base at one time (Homs, 3RHA) to utilise a new unusualy large purpose built aircraft-type hanger ....on the edge of the parade square to house what is anyone's guess as I can't track much in the archives remotely from the lands unfit for human habitation. I was alerted to Force R by a Veteran of 3RHA who was there and he told me that the unit was based in their camp and that personnel of Force R were not allowed to mix with the troops stationed in Homs as 'their work was secret'. They dressed in quasi-military uniforms and were 'scruffy'! What I have found out officially is that Force R were indeed in Libya to build dummy V Force bomber diversionary airfields in the desert .... as the real RAF Idris was a known diversionary real airfield for when the 'balloon went up'. The thinking is the large hanger was for constructing/inflating dummy aircraft ... the hanger, even I can remember as a child there in 1959-61 was huge and most certainly was big enough to house a blow-up Vulcan or two! Whether there ever were inflatable British jet aircraft at that time, or after I know not. The hanger was not used for anything after 1957 when 3RHA departed, seemingly 'empty' during 6 and 2RTR's time in situ though no other Veteran could tell me what the hanger was used for even if they could remember it being there. So if you know anything about dummy airfields, inflatable aircraft and Cold War deception in Libya, do please sing out.

    • Thanks 3
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