Degsy Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Thanks Degsy. I haven't meant to sling a spanner or two just being open and throwing another view point in to the mix. I like the fact loggydriver stated about the wearing of medals. Just my way of putting it Jack:-D but I think you are spot on. Perhaps you have come into the hobby with a different mindset to many of us and see things in a slightly different light. As in anything we must move on but as CW says not everything has to change just for the sake of change, we must keep the best of the past and accept the changes that are for the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 I love this hobby but when that spanner slips off the nut and take's the top off my knuckle there is pain involved Jamie That is very true. Every vehicle restoration should extract a pound of flesh, a couple of pints of blood and a whole dictionary of swear words. If it doesnt, well you are just not trying hard enough. Tim (too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 . As in anything we must move on but as CW says not everything has to change just for the sake of change, we must keep the best of the past and accept the changes that are for the better. I would agree with that. That is true progression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodge Deep Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 I've got to say that for all the complaints regarding medal wearing (which I entirely agree with by the way) in my my neck of the woods, I see very little of it... and I do look for it. I also agree with you regading the "I do it because" argument Jack, something we've discussed on a number of occasions... The "higher calling" explanation wears thin very quickly and dosent bear close scrutiny. "Fine sell all your kit and give the money to the British Legion then" is usually countered with "Well we are educating people" Which i usually reply with the observation that if you approach 10 displays at any given event be it L/H R/E MV 8 of them will probably ignore you standing there... too busy trying to look cool, battle hardened, shell shocked or whatever... The first time I visited W&P I was very dissapointed in the number of displays where the public were ignored rather than actively engaged. I'd stand there marvelling at the effort and authenticity these people had clearly gone to then realise nobody was prepared to approach to explain a detail to me or say what they represented, which was a shame. By all means present a scenario but without somone to explain it to you it's no more than an expensive photo opportunity... but then perhaps thats another motive...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 They are probably waiting for you to ask them :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I've got to say that for all the complaints regarding medal wearing (which I entirely agree with by the way) in my my neck of the woods, I see very little of it... and I do look for it. Some years ago I attended a show where someone was berated for wearing an Iron Cross on his German uniform as being disrespectful as he had not earned it. The wearer explained that he had in fact earned it & rolled up his sleeve to reveal his SS blood group tattoo! The first time I visited W&P I was very dissapointed in the number of displays where the public were ignored rather than actively engaged. I'd stand there marvelling at the effort and authenticity these people had clearly gone to then realise nobody was prepared to approach to explain a detail to me or say what they represented, which was a shame. By all means present a scenario but without somone to explain it to you it's no more than an expensive photo opportunity... but then perhaps thats another motive...? This is true of many sorts of displays to the public. I have noticed this with amateur radio stations. You see an operator with his back to you jabbering away into commercially built equipment (whatever happened to amateur radio?) oblivious to your presence & you just walk away none the wiser. The same with living history displays, so often one wants to engage but doesn't know how to open up the rapport. Although at a recent show there were many Germans & a single RAF group. I commented that it was nice to see the British represented but was told that they would be changing into Germans for the afternoon! On some occasions I am in uniform, I find then it is much easier to engage with a LH group as usually some good natured leg-pull comment is made by either side. But some members of the public do not want to engage. Some don't like what they see, some are just looking to see what it's all about & some just want to use you in a picture & move on. Similarly looking at vehicles they just don't want to know anything about the vehicle just a snap & move on. But you just don't who is out there. I have people who claim to have been beaten up by soldiers in the back of a Pig, yet on another occasion I found I was talking to our local Chief Constable! Very few LH groups seem to have a front of house man ready to engage, but his difficulty must be knowing who wants to engage & who wants to gawp & move on. Most LH groups seem to engage in their own activities, yet others stand almost motionless & one feels perhaps one shouldn't interrupt the serenity of the pose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) I agree with Jack and feel a little embarresed to have to agree... I mostly am in this for the fun. Still I feel the pressure to give a "better" reason when asked to explain. In MV's people see us a lot of the time as right wing extremists or warloving bas&^%ds. (It is a warmachine so fair enough). Re-enactment. When people say we play soldier I say; So Tom Hanks plays soldier? Answer; No he is a actor. Me, me to, difference is I don't get paid to perform and invested lots of time and money in research and buying stuff! Also wearing rank in RE is essential, 100 privates without a Sargeant or such is stupid...also a group of 20 persons in uniform with 4 privates, 7 Sargeants, 5 captains, 2 majors a Colonel and a General is stupid also. Wearing medals is neccesary when portraying Russian and German combat soldiers. When driving the Dodge I don't nessecarily wear a uniform I can be seen wearing a Hawaii t-shirt too. As you say its a HOBBY. When doing a RE event some rules are needed. I've been to a few marches with the 2nd armored group and they wanted a correct look and behaviour, fair enough. Luckily for me some leeway was given to me because of some health issues (bad back). Respect was vital during the commemorations) but fun was also a big part when being trucked around in open vehicles in winter. I am in a small RE group in the Netherlands (Brit and Canadian rearechelon display mainly). Here interaction with the public is highly encouraged. When people stand around or ask we explain, do a little drill or they get invited for a cup of Tea. Kit is laid out, people polishing boots, mending uniforms etc. Someone from the public is being heard to say like "I had one of those in the Army" or whatever and 1 of us begins to talk to him. Lots of good conversations happen this way. When doing a medic display young kids get invited on a stretcher and being hauled around or getting a bandage. Education and fun combined. Edited July 12, 2009 by Enigma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I agree with Jack and feel a little embarresed to have to agree...I mostly am in this for the fun. Still I feel the pressure to give a "better" reason when asked to explain. . That Sir is a stunning answer and total respect to you for saying that. However there should be not be embarrassed by it what so ever... Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you...And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." Part of a speech by Nelson Mandela's that is up on my office wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 You have Nelson Mandela on your office wall! Wow. Cool office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Tell that to a Sado-Masochist.... Or a frustrated Stalwart owner!!!! :cry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardyferret Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I don't post much on the forum anymore, personal reasons etc. I'm not sure on re-enacting, does death need to be rerun ? to teach a new generation of the horror of war? I think the losses recently for the sake of a grey men will inform their generation. I've watched living history and reenacts , and to a certain extent i feel uncomfortable, almost embarassed, at some of the overweight Walter Mitte's trying to carry out fire and manouvere :confused: I've seen some very very sad people living in parallel universe's and unfortunately this was War and Peace, but likewise I've met some stars. When it comes down to it I think it involves connection and memory... Sealed knot and like reenact some of the bloodiest conflicts of man, and we just watch, as we have no personal attachment, but WW2 we still have relations who we have heard 1st hand from. As a child I listened to my Uncle, airborne who fought thru Italy then Normandy. Those stories and others mark you and give you a physical link. I feel there is a place to inform, but to rerun battles of which there are still survivors, suffering physically and mentally, I think not necessary. We are meant to be the most intelligent life form on earth What the hell went wrong?? Just my views HF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joris Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 This is true of many sorts of displays to the public. I have noticed this with amateur radio stations. You see an operator with his back to you jabbering away into commercially built equipment (whatever happened to amateur radio?) oblivious to your presence & you just walk away none the wiser. The same with living history displays, so often one wants to engage but doesn't know how to open up the rapport. Although at a recent show there were many Germans & a single RAF group. I commented that it was nice to see the British represented but was told that they would be changing into Germans for the afternoon! Yeah I know, it's very hard to engage the public in a display. Last year we built a very nice display with a lot of kit and equipment but hardly anybody dared to come in. In the end I had to stand on the path to guide people in and even then I had to guide them around since they were reluctant to walk to the far corners. On the other hand, a great display of kit without explanation can be for the public a pile of green stuff. We need to tell them about it, perhaps even pick it up and look at it. Other wise we'd just be a museum but without the glass dividing the stuff from the public. Make them part of it, then you can say it's living history. Otherwise it's a museum but with people in stead of dolls. And Jack said what I usually don't say or even dare to think, I'm in it for the fun. When I drive around in the Dodge and people wave of walk into a lamppost when looking at the Dodge it makes me feel good. It's great to have a vehicle that people notice and it's nice to be seen. Other then that, I made great friends and not just in the Netherlands but overseas as well. I get to go to locations which I would never ever have seen and I'm loving every minute of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Elsdon Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 (edited) We all need to relax a little we may enjoy it a lot more. We are in a straight jacket because we have to be seen as showing respect. Who is saying disrespect is being shown?? If I had a Sherman tank one of the first things I would do is re-enact the scene from Kelly’s Hero’s where Oddballs outfit is laid up for a ‘refit’ some many would love to see and to be a part of it – again goes back to the ‘feeling’ the people would feel from seeing it. "Woof woof.....thats my other dog impression!" Just come back to this thread, and Jack you hit the nail on the head (Page 7 if anyone wants to read the full version). Be honest, who hasn't been to a show, and there are vehicles with cordons around them, with "Do not touch" on them, or Re-enactors taking it all too seriously and are not approachable. Yes there are arguments for it, particularly valuable vehicles, but if the owner or responsible person is on hand, there is no reason why the public should be shunned, it is after all a show. The most enjoyable times ive had at shows, apart from the obvious inter MV social banter/drink festival , is driving around with joe public in the back of the Pig, or painting kids faces with cam cream, sticking a helmet and webbing on them, and letting mum & dad take pictures of their kids on my vehicle. What i found on a Kids "Ride on" charity show that i was asked to take the Pig too, Mum or in particular Dad would ask if he could come with the kids "To make sure they were alright" and landed up asking more questions than little johnny! and not once did i have any Negative feedback about the Pig, or why i would want to own such a thing etc. If you get asked why you do it, tell them you are still a big kid, and its more interesting than Golf!! If you really want to justify it in a way to make a difference, do it for a charity. Maybe we all need to change the attitude to what we do at shows, if you engage with people, they then understand what you and your interest is about, and get them onboard with you, they then leave happy and thats what its all about, happy punters and happy MV owners. Maybe we need a different type of show, almost an exhibition for the public, still have static type displays and have rides on vehicles, kids involved with re-enactors with small fictional battles (I have seen this done with Romans, it was brilliant!) hands on weapons displays (like the Army do) make it a bit more fun, it is do-able and safe with a bit of thought, and if you need the worthiness factor, make it a charity event for example "Help for Heroes". Edited July 13, 2009 by Adam Elsdon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Maybe we need a different type of show, almost an exhibition for the public, still have static type displays and have rides on vehicles, kids involved with re-enactors with small fictional battles (I have seen this done with Romans, it was brilliant!) hands on weapons displays (like the Army do) make it a bit more fun, it is do-able and safe with a bit of thought, and if you need the worthiness factor, make it a charity event for example "Help for Heroes". With respect to the above, how many would be open to the idea of there being an open session in the W&P arena, where anyone who was happy to, could take their vehicle in and offer rides to the public. A bit like the tank rides but with more variation on offer. I'm sure from what's been said there would be a plethora of owners who would be happy to volunteer their vehicles, I know I would if I had anything worthwhile. what an opportunity to go for a trip around the arena showing off your pride and joy to those who were really keen on it. More of the public would then get the chance to ride on, look at closely and ask things about the vehicles...perhaps for a H.F.H donation. However it would all no doubt come to nothing as HSE would deem it dangerous...or perhaps not, prove me wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 The two main groups I play with, Goldbeach and the 10th Essex make a point of talking to the public. The idea of true Living History is to involve and educate. I've met some great people (and some right dumb ones) over the years, heard many tales, funny and heartbreacking from Vetrans and learnt a lot. It is also a winter hobby as you have to know your facts, though NEVER be afraid to admit you don't know! (Degsey, stop sniggering at the back) However the day it stops being fun, even if in the pouring rain it dosen't seem like it at the time, put me to bed with a shovel six feet under. Some shows, like Bunker Bash are so far mostly MV and other Nut.. er enthusiasits, I enjoy these as I don't have to act for the public. One thing , as most people will tell you who know is I love an excuse to work the Dodge. Anything from DV transport to rubbish carting via deliving washing machines. If you got it FLAUNT IT!:yay: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 With respect to the above, how many would be open to the idea of there being an open session in the W&P arena, where anyone who was happy to, could take their vehicle in and offer rides to the public. A bit like the tank rides but with more variation on offer. I'm sure from what's been said there would be a plethora of owners who would be happy to volunteer their vehicles, I know I would if I had anything worthwhile. what an opportunity to go for a trip around the arena showing off your pride and joy to those who were really keen on it. More of the public would then get the chance to ride on, look at closely and ask things about the vehicles...perhaps for a H.F.H donation. However it would all no doubt come to nothing as HSE would deem it dangerous...or perhaps not, prove me wrong. I'm luckier than most in that the Stalwart has a dirty great load bed to play with - but whenever little Maud goes into the arena at W&P there's usually a few people riding in the back - adults and young ones. AFAIK - with the possible exception of my wife who forgot to hang on to something the first year and got catapaulted from front to rear and back again every one has a good time!! Not sure if that counts are proof as I don't charge - it's just a free for all.... :rofl: (or at least - it would be if she was there this year.... :cry: :cry: :cry:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 It is also a winter hobby as you have to know your facts, though NEVER be afraid to admit you don't know! (Degsey, stop sniggering at the back) Moi:shocked:......as if:rotfl: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 However the day it stops being fun, even if in the pouring rain it dosen't seem like it at the time, put me to bed with a shovel six feet under. . One thing , as most people will tell you who know is I love an excuse to work the Dodge. Anything from DV transport to rubbish carting via deliving washing machines. If you got it FLAUNT IT!:yay: More illegal activities. I think you're digging your own hole.:rofl::rofl::rofl: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpltomo Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Well after reading all ten pages of comments on this thread. Must say my reason for joining this forum is That as a ex crewman I loved being with the sqn and troop i was with and was good at my job. yes i would love to own a sabre myself when money says i can. For me it would be a way to remember the old days and mates i have made and lost. But also to help anyone out if i can with a problem they may have with there cvr's. As for shows Yes i would love to be part of the crew to a cvr and wear my uniform with pride plus to see the faces of the people when i tell them that i have used these bits of kit in anger and lived in them with two other blokes for weeks on end . And must say it great that people like yourselfs have bought these bits of kit yourself and Brought them back to life out of the love of them. Cos lets be honest who would rebuild a scrapped fox because they were board. Plus to get back in the comanders seat and use the kit as i was taught to would be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Cos lets be honest who would rebuild a scrapped fox because they were board.. That would be me........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Elsdon Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 With respect to the above, how many would be open to the idea of there being an open session in the W&P arena, where anyone who was happy to, could take their vehicle in and offer rides to the public. A bit like the tank rides but with more variation on offer. I'm sure from what's been said there would be a plethora of owners who would be happy to volunteer their vehicles, I know I would if I had anything worthwhile. what an opportunity to go for a trip around the arena showing off your pride and joy to those who were really keen on it. More of the public would then get the chance to ride on, look at closely and ask things about the vehicles...perhaps for a H.F.H donation. However it would all no doubt come to nothing as HSE would deem it dangerous...or perhaps not, prove me wrong. The show i done had about a dozen vehicles going around a track at any one time, we done 2 laps and came in for passenger change over and back out again. The vehicles were temporarily signed over to the museum for the afternoon, therefore we came under their insurance, im pretty sure a big show like W & P has a bigger cover policy! add a few marshalls a drivers safety brief, and bobs your relative! If you want to see happy kids, give them a ride in an interesting vehicle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 We do exactly this at Military Mayhem with a 432, the little ones get to ride in a "tank" (to them) for free, 2 laps around the arena for free. They are inside with a lady who cares for children as a living and the parents watch from the side, to see their faces when they come out after the trip gives you a good feeling inside Well worth it and safe. :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpltomo Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 We do exactly this at Military Mayhem with a 432, the little ones get to ride in a "tank" (to them) for free, 2 laps around the arena for free. They are inside with a lady who cares for children as a living and the parents watch from the side, to see their faces when they come out after the trip gives you a good feeling inside Well worth it and safe. :-D Just off topic a little bit but i am with a 4x4 club and we have a day were we take the public around a off road course in our 4x4's for a small charge (all goes to help the heroes) and had no problems with it and kids both young and old they love it. Just need them to sign a disclaimer before geting in the 4x4 just incase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambo1969 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I have always made a point of talking to the public when at shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul connor Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 I have always made a point of talking to the public when at shows. I know Rambo, we do keep asking your Dad to keep you away from them, but he doesn't listen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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