rambo1969 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I reckon we all sit side by side. It's good to have a hobby and be pasionatte about it, whatever it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catweazle (Banned Member) Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I reckon we all sit side by side.It's good to have a hobby and be pasionatte about it, whatever it is. Here here,have you met the man who plays Patton? changed his name by deed pole.:shake: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppypiesdad Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Is that the guy at war and peace saw him last year even had his corncob pipe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catweazle (Banned Member) Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Is that the guy at war and peace saw him last year even had his corncob pipe Thats the man been doing it for years,cant decide whether i think its a great crack or a bit worrying,i have met him a mate has known him for years.He gets about.cw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoggyDriver Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) Here in the Netherlands the attitude towards german reenactors is ambivalent to say the least. After all we were occupied for 5 years, lost 107.000 jews to the concentration camps and god knows how many civillians and resistance fighters in that period. I simply can't get my head around people wanting to dress up like a wehrmacht trooper and am baffeld by anyone wanting to portray the SS. It's just beyond me. On the other hand, I find it perfectly normal to dress up as a para, in a way this is rather strange. On rank the matter becomes a very grey area indeed. I think there is nothing wrong with reenacors that wear rank insignia, but it's mostly the way rank is used. We at the Ducks do have ranks, our chairmen is a Luitenant and I'm now a T-5 (because I'm the webmaster). We use the rank as a token of gratitude within the group but we derive no power from them and do not try to use them in such a way. Our chairman takes the lead in most things and he is usually our spokesperson so is it strange that he's a Luitenant? I think not. What Tony said about the "general" in Normandy is a prime example of how not to use rank but if used as decoration then it's okay with me. Wearing medals for bravery are a nono but in Class A we do wear the presidential unit citation pin and all wear the colored bars that denote overseas time and locations. Exactly the same for the combat infantry badge or the marksman badges. This is all perfectly acceptable to me (but in essence, what is the difference?). That may be the case and I do sympathise with the Dutch, but don't forget that the average German Soldier was just that, a soldier doing his duty in a war he probably didn't understand. By all means criticise the guys walking around in SS uniforms, this is pretty bad taste. But I think negative comments on German soldiers doing their duty are a bit off (I'm not aiming this at you friend, just a general observation), after all they had to fight, just like our soldiers had to fight. There are good and bad things that happen on all sides in war. I'm not saying it's right, but give these soldiers just as much respect as you would your own. I'm not saying you have to like them, but respect them for who they were, soldiers. Maybe it's only ex servicemen like myself that see it this way? My Grandad (RIP) was in Europe for the whole of the war and never spoke about it. The only time he did speak about it, was when he was at Cassino. He told me what they had to go through, and do you know what? He actually told me he respected the German soldiers, as they were very good soldiers, very professional. In contrast he hated the Americans, mainly because many of his friends died because of their incompetence. If you speak with guys who have been in Afghanistan they will tell you that they respect the Taliban, not because they like them, but because they don't run away but stay and fight, with basic weapons. Sure you get the ones who didn't play by the rules, but that happens in every war on all sides. Like I said i can sympathise with your people as you had to endure an occupation, but just remember that most of the German soldiers probably didn't want to be there and not all of them were bad men. Edited July 8, 2009 by LoggyDriver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pearson Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 The DD Valentine owner (sorry forgot your name, memory is shot) doesn't want to wear a uniform. He has a good reasoning behind it which I understand and respect. RESPECT is in fact the keyword here! Respect between re-enacters, collectors and MV people. BUT most of all respect to those who fought and died in those uniforms and gear! The (currently dead) DD Valentine is mine! My take on this is that I really believe that people should do as they chose, so long as it does not affect anyone else. I will not wear a uniform I am not entitled to but if someone else does, so be it. If I don't like re-enactment I wont go or I will go and look round the stalls while it is on. If I am demonstrating my vehicle, either static or moving and it does not have the 'right' dressed crew for someone, they can always move down the line to another vehicle to look at. as an aside, I was surprised at some of the replies that Wayne posted: he is a really nice bloke, keen but not a fanatic and good at what he does with LH but little of that came across and I think people thought him dictatorial and rigid which I know is not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) . If you don't know one end of a spanner from another you shouldn't own a military vehicle. Why?? Edited July 8, 2009 by Marmite!! added quote tags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
croc Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) Why? because you might think it's ok to hold your battery on with string:coffee: Edited July 8, 2009 by Marmite!! quote tags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 - wasn't happy with the way Wayne was treated. I can't believe you said that Jack after the lack of respect he showed for members of this forum and the insults he aimed at certain of us:shocked::angry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Why?? That old mate, is hangover from my yoff! Remeber the old days when you could fix a vehicle on the front drive? My Mentor in such things was a bloke called Howard, we used to take old motorbikes and cars to him, he always insisted that he would tell us how to do it, but we had to fix it 'If you don't know one end of a spanner from the other you shouldn't own it!' His other favourite remark was 'Listen, the vehicle will tell you what is wrong!' Importantly though, whatever path of the HOBBY, RE, LH, MV Military history we veer off on, it has to be fun, I don't own my vehicles, I keep them in trust as symbols of the men of used them, and the times they represent. I've always followed the doctrine, if asked for help by a Forces Charity, you do everything possible to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Elsdon Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 adam both myself and roger the 118 team were members of the rmp and show what we did in the 80's the good and the badi have the 109 and have kitted it out as such but i also have a field kitchen which is shown in use at shows but i was never a member of the acc but have tried to get he correct kit for that David, as i said "Re-enactors" have no direct association with the events they are portraying, you however would definitely fall under "living history", because you have been there and done it, you in effect are the living history, not the kit, which i think is the important distinction, the fact you also like vehicles and other equipment doesnt change that position in my view. Another interesting point is the "Respect" issue, personally it makes me slightly uncomfortable, i dont expect anybody to respect me as an ex serviceman, i signed on the dotted line and took the Queens shilling and am fortunate to have done my service with a great bunch of mates, and come out of it in one piece, even though some Serbs tried otherwise! I do think it is important that the fallen are "Remembered", and not just the direct combat fatalities, but also all those who have died while training or out on operation through accidents, or received terrible injury,they have all paid the price and their families have endured more than could ever be reasonably asked of them. I am certain most other Veterans dont want respect or individual recognition for themselves, just an appreciation of what they were doing and rememberance for their lost mates regardless of the period or theatre they served in. Alternatively stick to playing with your Military over engineered marvel of a vehicle, while wearing an oily Batman T-shirt and torn jeans, it wont stop me from speaking to you and sharing an interest in Military Vehicles of any flavour! infact the vehicle can be in a similar shape, two of my mates have vehicles in civvy colours, it doesnt detract from the vehicle engineering and how it operates, which for me is the interesting bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 (edited) For once we agree Tony :shocked:although i know several people who successfully run HMV's and have no mechanical knowledge whatsoever. As for the listening my son is always trying to get me to run the tractors with the windows closed and the aircon on but I just can't do it because I've got to be able to hear whatever machine I've got on the back 'talking' to me:-D Edited July 9, 2009 by Degsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefano Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 (edited) Interesting thread this.. My (personal) take on this is that I will always use an appropriate uniform on any of my (or my mates') vehicles, indeed, I can see little to differentiate living history from a Military Vehicle - all too soon there will be no more Veterans, and the vehicles (plus the world we live in today, thank God) will be one of the few remaining testimonials of their passing. I remember when I was 11 and my father elected to bin his battledress during a clear out - I made it clear in no uncertain terms that this was not going to happen, and as a result I've still got it, and seeing as it fits, am proud to wear it (one of my elder brothers got his demob suit, much to my chagrin). My father was surprised but happy that I was so interested in the war and the vehicles of his youth, and the other Veterans that I've come across have had similar reactions. Historically speaking, military vehicles are supremely important - one day nobody will remember Geoff Duke and his antics on Nortons, but in school they'll still be studying WW2, and a 16H will be forever part of it (although admittedly like 79x100 I'd prefer a spring frame International!). Reenactors are a different matter, but I admit to being mightily impressed on the effort that they put into their endeavours, and I'd give them a lift anytime. It's true that you can occasionally come across a sort of hidden political intent occasionally (sometimes not too hidden), but it doesn't mean that everyone should be tarred with the same brush. My principal objection being that wild horses wouldn't make me sleep in a tent, let alone a ditch (three years in the Cadet Corps plus one of National Service means that I've seen quite enough of that, thank you). But, as others have said, the main thing is that "a good time was had by all". Edited July 9, 2009 by Stefano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 ..- all too soon there will be no more Veterans, and the vehicles (plus the world we live in today, thank God) ". I think there will always be veterans, as the world we live in today (to use your phrase) will always be at war somewhere, and there will always be some poor sod to fight it and hopefully survive it (A veteran) Then the MV collector in future years will have new vehicles to "collect" and re-enact in, or do LH with etc, so I see this hobby as with other hobbies moving with the times that are to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefano Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I think there will always be veterans, as the world we live in today (to use your phrase) will always be at war somewhere, and there will always be some poor sod to fight it and hopefully survive it (A veteran) Point gratefully taken Mark. I was, as you will imagine, talking about WW2 in particular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Another interesting point is the "Respect" issue, personally it makes me slightly uncomfortable, i dont expect anybody to respect me as an ex serviceman, i signed on the dotted line and took the Queens shilling and am fortunate to have done my service with a great bunch of mates, and come out of it in one piece, even though some Serbs tried otherwise! I do think it is important that the fallen are "Remembered", and not just the direct combat fatalities, but also all those who have died while training or out on operation through accidents, or received terrible injury,they have all paid the price and their families have endured more than could ever be reasonably asked of them. I am certain most other Veterans dont want respect or individual recognition for themselves, just an appreciation of what they were doing and rememberance for their lost mates regardless of the period or theatre they served in. Well, you had the guts to go for a job trying to help someone else at personal risk. As such I respect people, wether they are soldiers, policeman, firemen, search and resque and many more occupations. I can imagine some people joining for the money, thrill or whatever. BUT, these guys/girls do it knowing there is a personal risk which we as "normal" civilians aren't likely to encounter. @John Pearson, sorry I forgot your name. We spoke at Beltring even. (Anyone got a spare brain with working memory?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I think there will always be veterans, as the world we live in today (to use your phrase) will always be at war somewhere, and there will always be some poor sod to fight it and hopefully survive it (A veteran) Point gratefully taken Mark. I was, as you will imagine, talking about WW2 in particular. No point to be made just wanted to expand a bit as will the hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 This how I see it and I think folks over complicate things. Like many things in life the answers are many and varied as us all but there is pretty much one thing that unites us all and that is the word fun. Let me explain. This is a hobby, folks have hobbies for one reason – pleasure, not pain. It is that simple, not matter how people like to dress it up or justify why they do what they do – we all do it for fun. There has to be a certain amount of honesty from people. And I think this is where the unease comes in. If I can take you back to a different hobby/industry to show you an example. When fox hunting was planned to be outlawed the Countryside Alliance naturally started a campaign to save their sport. They based their whole argument on the fact that it was the only way to control the fox population – no other method was acceptable or efficient. Instead of having the backbone and the strength in their own beliefs they tried to con people by saying what they did was so important and the whole countryside would collapse without local hunts. The longer it went on the deeper and deeper they dug themselves until they lost all credibility. They could of completely won the day if they were honest. All they had to say was that actually we love what we do and we do it for the fun. For the social element, the new friends we make, the hunt balls, watching the horses and dogs work. We like to dress the part and walk the walk. We like to ride through outstanding countryside and we love our horses. Instead they undermined themselves by not being honest. It is exactly the same for our hobby – just think it through and look at it from a different angle. I am willing to say something outrageous and that is respect isn't our prime motive. It is part of the package but that said that isn’t the case for everyone. Many folks have MV’s as they like the engineering element of vehicle. For reenactors it is the dressing up element. There are clearly a lot of other ways to show respect if that was indeed the case. You don't need to spend thousands on kit and equipment and vehicles to do that. Not many people spend hundreds/thousands of hours restoring vehicles out of respect – it is done because it gives that said person a massive amount of joy and pride and fulfilment. But I fill that there is an element of guilt if people are seen to think otherwise. If this was the case then surely all of the Brits who own US vehicle should be owning British vehicles?????? Most folks do things because that get a certain feeling that they like – so they do again and again and again, we all do it. Once you understand that concept everything starts to fall in place – people then start to be honest. This hobby is no different then many others, so many of us spend time trying to ‘validate’ and justify what we do – I do this because ‘uncle Bob’ was in the war’ or my grandfather was this that and the other. I am not saying this is wrong, I am just saying that you don’t have to – you could just say that I love restoring and/or driving MV’s or I like re-enacting because I saw a great Hollywood film and they looked cool……pretty radical eh?! One of my grandfathers was capture at Crete by the Fallschirmjager but I sure as hell don’t want to re-enact being a POW even though I loved him and respected him dearly……. I have no problems with people wearing uniforms, rank and wearing medals at all, in fact I think it is stunning to see. Why should it be a problem??? When you ask this question most of us say things like ‘well they haven’t earned it’ but when you ask for a more refined answer it is had to find one because there really isn’t one. It is just the peer pressure that people live under, the misconception, misunderstandings and the usual judgements we make. Why would I have a problem with someone dressed up as a German? It makes no sense to me. I have no problems with someone who wants to sleep in a fox hole no more then someone sleeping in a tent – again this is all about the feeling that that one person gets from doing it. As a rule most of us are, above and beyond anything else fascinated by history and I don’t mean just military history. So with that in mind we wouldn’t expect to visit a show about Romans and see Centurions dressed in a shell suit, or a Celt encampment with people dressed in fleeces so why are people shocked or upset when people dress correctly in our hobby?????????? The classic car hobby is no different – it is great to see folks in period dress……. If people who do not like to see people in uniforms, wearing rank or medals what do the do when a documentary is on the History Channel?? What happens when they watch a film? Do they switch it off? No of course not! We all watch it with massive interest and want more of it. So then how come it is OK to watch and accept and more to the point enjoy it when it is on TV but it isn’t acceptable when seen at shows??? I will tell you why I have no problems with uniforms, medals, rank, re-enactors MV owners because it is all an act. It is all make believe, the world is a stage for us all to act upon. When you understand like this then it all becomes wonderful. This is all a fantasy and a dream world, it is escapism and time travel. Its like people who attack actors from soap operas in the street as they believe it is all true! People like me who drive a WW11 vehicle do it because of the massive amount of pleasure I get from it. I always stick my head out of the cab and listen to the exhaust. I know nothing about the mechanics of it but I do know that that GMC has changed my life. Every time I see it I get butterflies. When I drive it to the office I can’t wait to get up and then I can’t wait for the day to end so that I can drive it home again. When people stop and stare, wave or flash their lights I get a buzz – I like it. It puts smiles on their faces and mine too. And guess what – I do not wear the chains of validity, I don’t have to worry about the fact that it hasn’t got the original canvas, tires, light bulbs, petrol in the tank and WW11 air in the tires. Very much like the WW11 jeep v Hotchkiss debate – why the hell can’t someone dress as a WW11 jeep? Half the flying war birds aren’t WW11 – the Sally B wasn’t even in the war?! What is original on HMS Victory? We all need to relax a little we may enjoy it a lot more. We are in a straight jacket because we have to be seen as showing respect. Who is saying disrespect is being shown?? If I had a Sherman tank one of the first things I would do is re-enact the scene from Kelly’s Hero’s where Oddballs outfit is laid up for a ‘refit’ some many would love to see and to be a part of it – again goes back to the ‘feeling’ the people would feel from seeing it. I am not pretending to be someone or something. When you are flying above Normandy in a C47 or driving on a back of Adrian’s Sherman around a WW11 heavy bomber base, or riding on the back of Jims Sherman down Weymouth high street or driving my GMC to my office or spending time in Normandy or just having a great time with friends you have made in this hobby – it is all about living the dream and making memories……….. I want to see more of it all. This is the closest I am ever going to get to time travel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catweazle (Banned Member) Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 And i thought Norman tebbit only wrote speaches for Lady thatcher,Ex spitfire pilot by the way.:-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppypiesdad Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 This is a hobby, folks have hobbies for one reason – pleasure, not pain. I love this hobby but when that spanner slips off the nut and take's the top off my knuckle there is pain involved Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Pheeew, you've certainly thrown a spanner in a few peoples works there Jack, but having read it and thought about it I have to agree with you on almost all your points. The only thing I have reservations about is the wearing of medals, I take your point about television and films but in those instances specific characters are being portrayed whereas in the MV/LH/Reenacting hobby, with the exception of the likes of 'General Patton', we are representing a general picture of a specific period in time. Whilst I have great respect for all who have fought to uphold our and others freedom I would never claim this to be the principal reason for my interest. When asked my answer has always been that as a young boy at the end of the war I saw the vehicles at every turn , both in military and civilian use, which sparked an interest that has lasted over 60 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 This is a hobby, folks have hobbies for one reason – pleasure, not pain. Tell that to a Sado-Masochist.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoggyDriver Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 The wearing of medals that you are not entitled to wear is illegal under the Army Act 1955. This applies to British Armed Forces medals. Therefor if you wear a British Armed Forces medal that you are not entitled to wear you are committing an offence. This also applies to badges of rank, again, illegal unless earned. This Act obviously doesn't apply to foreign forces awards and rank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 The wearing of medals that you are not entitled to wear is illegal under the Army Act 1955. This applies to British Armed Forces medals. Therefor if you wear a British Armed Forces medal that you are not entitled to wear you are committing an offence. This also applies to badges of rank, again, illegal unless earned. This Act obviously doesn't apply to foreign forces awards and rank. The wearing of medals and legality thereof has previously been fully discussed and I think you will find that it is OK to wear them in the context of LH or reenactment, the law is there more to prevent the use of them to aid criminal activities. Having said that, personally I would never wear any medals, even the ones which my father earned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Pheeew, you've certainly thrown a spanner in a few peoples works there Jack, but having read it and thought about it I have to agree with you on almost all your points. Thanks Degsy. I haven't meant to sling a spanner or two just being open and throwing another view point in to the mix. I like the fact loggydriver stated about the wearing of medals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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