Originality

[Tony B]

You tell me.

Perhaps this one goes a bit far.

[abn deuce]

Perhaps We need a thread for all the modified military vehicles of their own . While it would be nice if everyone kept they entire vehicle all original We have all seen examples of people doing modifications of different degrees to "Their" vehicles.

 

One point of all the discussions has been as long as the result is not past along as being an in service example of X , or there will be others who think they have a better idea of how the vehicle should be used/changed there isnt anything We can do about it .

 

We need to face the fact that some models of former military vehicles are quite common in some areas so the price they sell at is affordable enough it temps people to buy one and experiment.

 

Just a thought to either include these in their own thread or ban them.

Edited August 13, 2009 by abn deuce
spelling

[sirhc]

We need to face the fact that some models of former military vehicles are quite common in some areas so the price they sell at is affordable enough it temps people to buy one and experiment.

 

Just a thought to either include these in their own thread or ban them.

 

As previously stated, people can do what they like to a vehicle they have paid the money for. I just don't think they should be taking them to a military vehicle show and passing them off as 'restored' examples of the type.

[nuttydon]

Sorry I am getting lost now How can you 'keep a vehicle original'?

 

When you buy it privately, even directly from Withams, it will not be 'original'. It will have had gear fitted/removed or been painted, etc, etc.

 

Most vehicles evolved their whole military life.:coffee:

 

I think that 'as used in service' is a better phrase. I know this is still open to abuse because people may do their vehicle to a different role to that which it ever under took. But surely as long as the spirit is there and the vehicle is kept to a given spec' , within reason so what?:cool2:

[sirhc]

Sorry I am getting lost now How can you 'keep a vehicle original'?

 

When you buy it privately, even directly from Withams, it will not be 'original'. It will have had gear fitted/removed or been painted, etc, etc.

 

Most vehicles evolved their whole military life.:coffee:

 

I think that 'as used in service' is a better phrase. I know this is still open to abuse because people may do their vehicle to a different role to that which it ever under took. But surely as long as the spirit is there and the vehicle is kept to a given spec' , within reason so what?:cool2:

 

Don,

 

As stated at the start of this thread, original to me means correct to that vehicle. I used the example of fitting 2006 era Bowman radio stickers to a 1960s Lightweight. This is pure fiction and in my mind ruins an otherwise nicely restored vehicle. I was making the comment that just because you can stick the sticker/bolt the part on to your vehicle, it doesn't mean you should do it! You are correct, as used in service is maybe a better phrase, but I don't know how to shorten that to one word.

 

Chris

[antarmike]

In the general world of preservation/ restoration, very little is what it seems to be. Almost half the Showmens engines at steam rallies started out as tractors or Road Rollers.

 

Most of the Scammell Highwaymen so often seen as ballast Tractors pulling showmwns living vans were Artic tractor units with Tankers, with Shell and Esso etc.

 

A nice little Bedford O type lorry with a wooden dropside body is ectually an ex Military Airfield re-fueller.

 

My Matador was built as a 50 KVa Generator truck with signals body but it was never issued to a unit, After many years in store it was re-worked as an Aircraft rectification truck, but never issued to a unit. When it finally went into military service with a unit it was 20 years after having been built, it was stripped out and used as a mobile changing room for the Navy Divers on Portsmouth dockside, still in RAF blue Grey and with an AV RAF registration.

 

Can you suggest since this has been a 50 KvA Generator but never used as such, An Aircraft rectification truck, but never used as such, and a Navy Vehicle in RAF llivery, how would you present it to the public so as to be "Original".

 

Oh and to add to it all at some time before release from the Navy the original winch was removed, by the military themselves, Possibly when reworked as Aircraft Rectification truck, or when stripped of all internal fittings to become a changeing room?

 

It spent almost all its life in storage, was only used by the Navy in the wrong Livery, and when used it was neither what it was built as, nor what the Airforce itself converted it to, instead it sat on a Dockside as a tea room for divers.

 

Those who feel originality is so important have a go at suggesting how to present this vehicle...

 

Should the Centurion ARV's that were rebuilt from earlier model Gun tanks be shown as ARV's? Surely if originality is all they need putting back to a gun tank before going to a show?

 

What we need is some realism, vehicles change, and it is often the military that do it, not the preservationist

Edited August 13, 2009 by antarmike

[Guest catweazle (Banned Member)]

Perhaps this one goes a bit far.

You dont say.:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[nuttydon]

Chris - Sounds like we are on the same hymn sheet :thumbsup: and no I can not think of a short snappy version either . . . .

 

The whole thing is a can of worms - but I agree completely with you - I hate to see excessive or out of period equipment and/or markings on vehicles THAT PRETEND TO BE CORRECT. Is fine if you are not showing it and just enjoying it for its own sake, but not so good if you attend shows and hold it up as an example of a correct vehicle of a given time.

 

On my FV432 I have been led by my vehicles remaining 'fit out' at release on what period it should be kitted too. ('89 fits the bill) Many people just bung stuff on because it 'looks' right without checking if it is correct for their specific vehicle OR the year of use they are restoring to.

 

Wrong tyres when originals are availiable, stickers, number plates, etc.:argh:

[nuttydon]

Ohh that was misleading by me sorry,

 

IMO ---

 

In summary - get a vehicle, find out as much as you can about it, choose a specific period in its (or similar types ?!) serving life and go for it :yay:. (Obviously go for the more interesting periods if possible)

 

Antarmike - you are so lucky to have all that history (and indded a vehicle with all that history:)). My bloody vehicles records hint at an interesting role in BAOR Signals, but after '74 are proving VERY hard to find:confused:

 

Don

[Adrian Barrell]

There is restoration and restoration. Strictly speaking, to restore a vehicle is to return it to some previous state. We accept restore to mean 'as new' though there is much interpretation to this.....

 

In the case you cite Mike, your Matador could be restored in any of it's previous guises, all would be correct.

 

As for originality, I think most of us accept that there will and indeed must be compromises in some areas such as tyres, batteries, canvas and such.

I think the phrase 'as original' is more correct.

 

At the end of the day, it's up to the owner.

[ajmac]

It is indeed a can of worms.

 

As said before if you own it you can do anything you want.

 

A particular case is the much talked of 'Cobra king' Sherman Jumbo (M4A3E2), the museum plans to remove all the 1945 field modifications and return it to the 1944 spec which it had when it became famous. Seems OK on the face of it..... but why is one WW2 date more significant than any other? Would you take a Marder 1 and turn it back into the original french vehicle? You would be quite within your rights to do so (sadly quite insane though)...

[AlienFTM]

Don,

 

As stated at the start of this thread, original to me means correct to that vehicle. I used the example of fitting 2006 era Bowman radio stickers to a 1960s Lightweight. This is pure fiction and in my mind ruins an otherwise nicely restored vehicle. I was making the comment that just because you can stick the sticker/bolt the part on to your vehicle, it doesn't mean you should do it! You are correct, as used in service is maybe a better phrase, but I don't know how to shorten that to one word.

 

Chris

Hear hear. When I was a lad I used to build Airfix kits, aircraft then later tanks.

 

I could never get my head around Airfix providing alternative parts. If they gave me, say a bomb and eight rockets and the instructions said to fit one for a Mark A or the other for a Mark B, I'd just slap the lot on.

 

I am no longer ten years old of course and I know better.

[Adrian Barrell]

It is indeed a can of worms.

 

As said before if you own it you can do anything you want.

 

A particular case is the much talked of 'Cobra king' Sherman Jumbo (M4A3E2), the museum plans to remove all the 1945 field modifications and return it to the 1944 spec which it had when it became famous. Seems OK on the face of it..... but why is one WW2 date more significant than any other? QUOTE]

 

Cobra King is famous for being the lead tank that broke through at Bastogne so to return it to it's state at that time is understandable.

[nuttydon]

On a civilian leaning, and whilst I can not personally understand it :-D. . . .Some of the Range Rover Owners Club get quite Sniffy just because I carried out a few mods to this one. (and the paint scheme was my 8 year old daughters choice:) ) However as I would never take it to a show as a Range Rover Classic I can not see the problem.

 

(Besides I'm sure Solihull were just biding their time before they bought out a Range Rover pickup:cool2:)

[Tony B]

Old Rovers like old Military never die, my Range rover has been recycled at least once. The same with the militarys, diffrent equipment comes in, vehicles get altered to do the new job. I have a 1944 Dodge WC51, except, the Norwegians changed the engine in 1962, A lot of Dodge ambulances were rebuilt immidiatly post war for Korea. They were stripped then re assembled from the pile of bits at the end. The same sort of thing happens to now so what is original? Just remembering a TV programme about Steam Railway engines, a replica of a very old engine was being built, then an original part was found, so the replica, became a rebuild.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Tony B

[ajmac]

Cobra King is famous for being the lead tank that broke through at Bastogne so to return it to it's state at that time is understandable.

 

I know, but to what extent do you take it? They don't have the original gun etc, so all you are doing is returning it to a 'look alike' condition. If they were to do a dual display with the 76mm in a turret next to the CK discussing the late war field mods to upgun the Jumbos that would be nice.

 

If I were to make the decision on CK restoration, 1944 spec would be a no brainer.

 

My point is about how subjective it all is :-D

Edited August 13, 2009 by ajmac

[nuttydon]

About 15 years ago a chap I know very well built a Fraser Nash Le Mans racing car. He used an original chassis and some original body parts from elsewhere, (he fabricated the rest). In went a Bristol Straight 6 as was correct to type. Later Wheels were mod'd to look right, as were other bits and pieces. etc.

 

Anyhow a few years later that sold at auction as an 'original chassis based full restoration' for £210,000!

 

Now how to make my 432 look like the last remaining version of something very rare :cool2:

[antarmike]

My Matador, and Andi's Explorer where both built without indicators. At the time I bought the Matador it did not have indicators fitted. I ran it for a year without indicators, (Hand signals only) and nearly had so many accidents I decided that was impractical.

 

I know it had indicators at one time, but the previous owner had removed them, and all associated wiring.

 

Andi's Scammell was presumably modified in service (Emer) . but Both are now un-original in this respect.

 

From my reading of traffic law, if indicators have been fitted they have to be maintained in working condition, but for these 1950's vehicles, there is no requirement to have indicators if they have never been fitted.

 

I.e. I believe it would be illegal to remove the indicators from these vehicles, but the fitment of indicators has made them "unoriginal"

 

There is no legal way to return either vehicle back to "Original" with regards to indicators.

 

Should my wife not show her Explorer because it has indicators? In fact were any Explorers and Matadors actually built with Indicators? Are all of them unoriginal, I will have to look at the wiring diagrams for the different contracts.

 

The Dyson Trailer I own had indicators and stop/tail lights tucked under the loading ramps. If you got nearer than about 20 feet, they dissappeared under the protruding Ramps. Should I not show this either because I have made up Light Boards that sit on top of the Ramps, and keep the lamps in view of those following at any distance?

Edited August 13, 2009 by antarmike

[Guest catweazle (Banned Member)]

Fitted Kenlowe fan and 88 c thermostat reset the running temp to 100c emmissions down to as low as 66ppm,got rid of heavy metal fan that works non stop when its only needed 10% of the time,plus the noise it made.More mpg.give me unoriginal every time.:-D

[Lardrover]

as used in service is maybe a better phrase, but I don't know how to shorten that to one word.

 

I like "contemporary", sums it up for me.

[Dougy FV432]

Hello All,

 

I've watched this thread for a while now, but here's my two pennys worth. The only way to keep a vehicle original is to do absolutely nothing to it. So if a part breaks then surely you can not replace it with a new part, be it after market, OEM or NOS as this would not be 'original'. Then if you repair a part, again this is not original!!!

 

I know of a chap that was restoring an early example of a civilian lorry, sorry can't remember what type. But he has added flitches to strengthen the chassis as he wants to use it when it is done. It was frowned upon by the rivet counters that saw it when he displayed as the restoration progressed. He was just trying to save a vehicle of this type. He had to have wings made by hand, at high expense and tried to get it as close as possible to original. So should he have just left it to rot in a field, and let another already rare example disappear?

 

So back to our military vehicles. I feel that as long as the 'restoration' is sympathic to the vehicle, be it to a standard that portrays it as it came off the production line or after it had 'in field mods to make it more appropiate to the crews needs, then it's your choice. Yes it is better if what ever is done is realistic and age related, so that it shows a fair represenation of the vehicle it is, even if it is a 'wolf' in sheeps clothing, not everyone is in the position to own a real true example! a, there isn't many and b, they cost a fortune!

 

My vehicles are set up with kit and mods that keep the vehicles looking military, from accesories that have come available, for example my lightweight has a hard top fitted, but I use it and I want the security this offers around town, it has range rover diffs because it goes better, and it's 12v but I have fitted wing boxes because I like them!!.

 

:nono:But my pet hate is when you are at a show and you are doing a military display and you have your next door neighbours caravan with a camo net chucked over it as passed of as an officers quarters.

Ooops, maybe that three pennys worth!

 

:stop:One other thing, is this 'bowman' sticker only used on bowman equipped vehicles? I ask as my FFR 110 has one fitted and it has only ever been kitted out with clansman! Is it more of a health and safety 'thing?' I even saw a clansman desert coloured wing box in the last withams tender with one on.

 

 

Dougy :coffee:

[antarmike]

In the case you cite Mike, your Matador could be restored in any of it's previous guises, all would be correct.

 

 

But the whole time it was in store (20 years) it would have been inhibited, wrapped up in greased paper, probably stood on wooden blocks to keep the weight of the tyres, batteries removed etc. It would have had no unit markings etc. It would be difficult to present it as it was in store, and I know it was built with a 5 ton Turner winch, and I know that when released from the Navy it no longer had it fitted. If I wanted to show it as a stored Aircraft rectification truck, how on earth could I know if it should have a winch at that time?

[Adrian Barrell]

I suspect you're not that bothered! Just happy to have it preserved.

[fv1609]

It would have had no unit markings etc.

 

Although it would have had vehicle depot markings stencilled on it. These markings MUST be removed/painted over on issue to a unit.

 

I have a little chuckle to myself when I see a prize winning vehicle displaying a wide range of kit & there lovingly reproduced are the depot markings. I've given up up enquiring if the owner knows the significance of the markings, as I am told they are the markings that they found under layers of paint. So they are 100% original & who am I to spoil their moment of glory?

 

I don't think I've ever seen a vehicle restored to depict its life in a storage depot, which after all most of our vehicles spent much of their lives.

[antarmike]

I suspect you're not that bothered! Just happy to have it preserved.

 

Vehicles are toys and should be played with! All my Dinky toys had chipped paint, and didn't look as they came out of the box for more than 5 minutes.

 

My dinky toys may not then have remained "original" but I enjoyed them, nevertheless.