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WW1 Thornycroft restoration

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Is the steering box packed with grease..? If so it might just be worth seeing just how much play is taken out when it is

re-packed. You may be surprised quite how much space a lubricant can fill.

 

But then I know nothing. It is official. I've been told.

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Hi Chaps.

 

Many thanks for all of that. I hadn't thought of using a plastic but it would work. I don't think I want to, though, as it wouldn't be 'as built' which is the standard we have set ourselves. Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

I am sure we can straighten the worm but am still thinking on the most reliable process. It will certainly want heat as it is quite hefty and to get the bend where I want it, the pressure points are going to be very close together. I have the remains of the original column which I could use to lean on it in the vice but that will take a bit of control on my part to get the right amount in the right direction. I would like to use the press but it is going to be at its limit cold. It does have the advantage of much finer control than the tube. I am thinking that if I make two half bearings and mount them on a plate, say 4" apart, I could put that on the press to support the worm either side of the bend before giving it a push in the middle. It would make the setting up process when hot a lot easier. A two man job though! Tim??!!

 

The white metal is interesting. It is a very coarse two start thread so the backlash might not be significant. At the moment, I feel inclined to reassemble it all and see how bad it really is and then re-metal if necessary. Dad has cleaned it up today and says that it looks a bit rough in the middle so a bit more thought is needed. Thank you all very much for the procedure suggestions. That takes some of the fear out of the job! I have only done big ends before so this is really quite different.

 

I shall ponder this job a bit longer before tackling it. In the mean time it is back to pattern making. There should be some pics of that by the weekend.

 

Cheers!

 

Steve :-)

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I'd be very keen to see all the bits cleaned up. It may be there shims to take out between theouter screw casings.

 

Regards, Matthew

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Hi Steve

this is the work we do most days. I would not heat the shaft just press it as 4ton will move it as it looks to be 1.25 inch dia.It would take two hour and if it was not the steering you could just press and build it up and turn it down as I posted just cut some old bushes in half for the three points and press it mark the high spot in the lathe beween centres and press.

regards mal

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Steve, I agree with Mal - no heat, just the half bushes, press, and a second pair of hands to help.

 

Trevor

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The second Clutch Cone proved to be very sound after it was given a good cleaning and de-rusting and that also very fortunately, the existing lining on it was fit enough to be used again. It needed just a little tidying up and some of the screws attaching the lining to the rim had to be replaced.

All of the other fittings to the cone have also been cleaned, taken back to bare metal and painted so that they are now ready for final assembly. Chris G very kindly provided the new bearings that are required so we are all set to finally put it together. The photographs show a trial fitting but without the bearings inserted at this stage.

 

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Yes, that's right. A classis 'cone-clutch'. They are very common on early vehicles, sometimes with leather linings and sometimes just metal to metal. They work well but can grab a bit if you are not careful. It says in the manual to apply oil to the friction material if it does!

 

The leaf springs are a bit unusual though. We are fortunate to have a refurbished set in stock. It is amazing what you can pick up if you spend long enough on a project!

 

Steve

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Just an update on the parts that were on ebay (post 761) . I now have them home and have had a closer look. It is interesting that the engine block number is 7857, which is just eleven from the block number of the Thornycroft on this thread (from memory from an earlier post was 7869).

 

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The wheels that were attached to the diff housing are both different ,one being a J type and the other which may have been from an earlier Thornycroft????. Does anyone have any ideas to what model it may be from or what maker if not Thornycroft?

 

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Edited by Chaindrive

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Just an update on the parts that were on ebay (post 761) . I now have them home and have had a closer look. It is interesting that the engine block number is 7857, which is just eleven from the block number of the Thornycroft on this thread (from memory from an earlier post was 7869).

Yes, you are right M7869 it is!

 

Our engine came back from NZ several years ago but it looks as if could be from the same build-batch as yours. I wonder if that batch, when built, were all sent to Australia and New Zealnd together? I guess we shall never know. Our other engine found in the UK, carries an earlier number - M5992.

 

Tony

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The wheels are both from Thornycroft, the disc wheels of military origin, and the spoked pattern of factory commercial production. That does not mean this vehicle saw war service, as the disc wheel could be the replacement. It could also be a rebuilt lorry dispatched after the war to Australia with military wheels and the spoked wheel is the replacement. Take your choice!.I will compare the engine number to my records here and may be able to give a year of construction.

Doug

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Well, our NZ engine had a low level radiator - we could tell that from the plumbing still on it so we assumed that it was a post war engine. The military "J's" had the high level type of radiator with the starting handle underneath it - and not through the core as the later civilian ones had. I won't mind if one of the experts can correct me if I am wrong on that one!

 

Tony

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Hi Tony, hope you dont mind me asking a few questions, does your thornycroft engine have the word THOR cast onto any of the smaller attachments, gatechange etc, does this stand for war department? and do you know if there are any survivors of the lighter model X type made for INDIA in the uk or somewhere else, sorry i havent been in touch for a while, work has got in the way of any passtime activities, i'm allways looking forward to the progress the gosling clan are making on the thorny. cheers mike.

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Hi Tony, hope you dont mind me asking a few questions, does your thornycroft engine have the word THOR cast onto any of the smaller attachments, gatechange etc, does this stand for war department? and do you know if there are any survivors of the lighter model X type made for INDIA in the uk or somewhere else, sorry i havent been in touch for a while, work has got in the way of any passtime activities, i'm allways looking forward to the progress the gosling clan are making on the thorny. cheers mike.

 

Hi Mike - always pleased to see you here - we regularly think of your input to the project as without your "diff", it really would have made life very difficult for us! Progress seems to have been a bit slow because of the continuing problems that keep on cropping up with the engine but I hope that we are now on the homeward trail with that. Steve has finished the patterns for the new pistons - I know he plans to put the story of those up on the forum very shortly - and then it is a case of getting them cast and then machining them - and then the final re-assembly of the engine. We always maintained that the engine re-build would be the slowest and longest part of the story since we started to recount the tale on the Forum, as so much else had prevously been done and was just waiting for the appropriate time to assemble everything. The grand plan is that the engine should be finished before the end of this summer - we must then find accomodation for the Dennis elsewhere so that the "Thorny" chassis can come inside and we can get stuck into that.

 

Certainly a large number of the bigger castings have the word "Thor" or "Thor J" cast into them - and "Thor" of course, being an abbreviation of "Thornycroft". All of the smaller cast parts have their Part number cast into them and those can be reconciled with the original Thornycroft Parts Book - that Book is a wonderful thing to have as there are pictures in it of most of the numbered parts and is great for not only identification, but also very helpful if they have to be made so you have an additional idea of what they should look like.

 

Now with regard to other Thorny models, then that really is a question for Steve and Tim and I am sure that they will be along later to give you an answer on that one! Another great source of information on questions like that is Alan (Runflat) and if he knows, I am sure that he will oblige us with answers! Is the "X" Type of particular interest to you and should we - and other Forum members be keeping eyes open for anything? A "Parts Book" for example?

 

I guess you saw the pictures of the WW1 Albion put up on the Forum very recently?

 

Tony

 

 

 

.

Edited by Minesweeper

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Further to Mikes query on the model X Thornycroft. This model appears not to have survived well even though it was based on the model J and used the same motor. The gear box it a different shape being a square box to replace the deep v shape of the J. The chassis cross members are different to the J model to mount the different shaped gearbox.

This model is rare, my understanding through the Thornycroft Register is there is one complete at Milestones Museum, I have remains of one here in NZ and recently have had confirmed the existence of one restored in Australia.

I take it Mikes been out collecting more bits again so perhaps there is another for the list.

Doug

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Tony, thanks for the info and update, and yes i do understand about the problems with trying to rebuild old engines that have sat outside for decades, i'm allmost ready to put the engine back together for the albion model LB24, lucky for me i had 4 engines, just, enough to make one!! yesterday i finally bought the diff home with wheels and springs attached and its now all bolted to the chassis, back to these thornycroft trucks they sure did make a lot of different models and just to confuse it even more down here in nz and australia where old trucks were modified added to and kept going even only if it was to be a farm hack, Doug thanks also for the info on the X-type trucks, i wasnt aware about the differnet shaped gearbox, and yes i am in the process of trying to acquire a very complete X type chassis with good wheels, the owner has an engine for it but i think its too early being an L4 engine, i may be wrong about this? but i have read the x models had the M4 engine same as the J-type, doug i have also identified that thornycroft i have outside against the fence, its a BX, it has a 4 speed box and is very similar to a BT, sharing the same engine, thought youd like to know,

cheers mike.

,

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Yes, you are quite right. There is indeed an X Type at Milestones. I went to the museum last year and i have just gone through my photos and to my embarassment i didnt take any pictures of it. Anyway, there is lots more information about it here. I hope that you find it interesting.

 

http://www3.hants.gov.uk/thornycroft/lorries/our-lorries/drivng.htm

 

If you need me to go and do an in depth walk around photo shoot of it let me know and i will see what i can do the next time i visit.

 

Tim

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hi tim, thanks for your offer, i may take you up on that, i've been chasing this for about 3 years now, but now after finding out about the different gearbox, and i'm not sure if a j type radiator with handle through the core is the right size, maybe its too rare a vehicle to find enough parts to restore, i do have dibs on an m4 engine and box, but no steering box, probably still worth collecting, and saving, probably pay to do some more homework on this, i'll keep you posted.

mike.

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The X type at Milestones is the one restored and owned for many years by George Bowkley at Tenbury Wells.

 

It used to regualry go to the Bishops Castle Steam rally in south Shropshire along with his Burrell Traction Engine.

 

I've had lots of rides on it when growing up, father was always very interested it as it was similar to the J type.

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Mike,

The L4 engine you have been chasing was used in the very early J model, prior to moving on to the M4 engine. That could well be the type used in my early chassis here. So if it hunt comes off I would be interested in the engine. Also the L4 was used in some of the chain drive models and fitting the chain drive Thornycroft back axle Karl recently brought home.

Doug

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Steve is busily trying to move house so his workshop hours are severely limited at the moment. However, he has managed to make up the piston pattern.

Firstly, he made up some blocks of MDF by gluing layers together, round ones for the main plug and rectangular for the core box.

 

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Then it was down to Devon where he set the plug up in Dad’s Colchester lather.

 

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This was a straightforward turning job although MDF dust is horrible and he did wear a proper respirator.

 

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Next he silver soldered a boss to a plate and let it into the crown of the pattern in order to give a strong point to extract it from the sand.

 

 

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Finally, he turned up a chucking piece which locates on the crown and will give a boss by which the piston can be held for machining.

 

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Then it was back to the Colchester to bore out the core box. Steve planed the two halves plat and then screwed them together before boring out.

 

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The various grooves were all positioned by measurement. before unscrewing the two halves.

 

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Next, he turned up and slotted two bosses to represent the gudgeon pin bosses. These were screwed in and then filleted using car body filler. This was cay back to a nice radius using the ‘Dremel’ pencil grinder with a ball-nosed cutter fitted.

 

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DSCN3207_zpsfc8823a1.jpg

 

After that, it was just a case of painting. We use Bondaprimer zinc anti-rust primer, even on MDF as it soaks in very deeply hardening the surface. The first coat leaves a very rough surface but sands back to a nice finish.

 

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A second coat really finishes it off and Steve just polishes this back with wire wool to make it easier to get out of the sand.

 

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The last part of the job was to make and extractor handle for the moulder.

 

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Dad will now take the pattern to the foundry for some grey iron castings. Then we will have the fun of machining them!

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Just to show that Steves's patern making skills are equal to any other, here are some photographs of a piston pattern made for the 60HP White and Poppe Dennis engine. This pattern was made for 'Jezebel' the Royal College of Science Dennis fire engine, which had a phase of eating its pistons.

 

Piston Pattern 1.JPG

 

 

Barry.

Piston Pattern 4.JPG

Piston Pattern 3.JPG

Piston Pattern 2.JPG

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So that is how it is done! Proper colours too!

 

I see that the core hangs down into the cavity whereas mine has the crown at the top. That way, the dross will end up in the skirt rather than the crown. I think I will get away with it as any dross will end up in the chucking piece on mine.

 

It is very nice to see something professionally made. I'm afraid that I just make it up as I go along!

 

Thanks for sharing that with us Barry.

 

Steve

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