David Herbert Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 The red X model in the post above has different side plates to those in the photo that Ian_B put up of one of his two rads. That rad has two studs that hold the side plates on at each corner of the core. The red one has four at each top corner and I think three at each bottom corner (allowing for what I think is a broken flange on the NS side plate and no view of the OS one). I would also suggest the possibility that some vehicles would have had non Thornycroft radiators fitted that were 'pattern parts' made localy. It seems that the British army had workshops in France that were capable of manufacturing almost any spare parts that might be in short supply. This must have been an issue in Australia and NZ too. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAN_B Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 The front view of my radiator certainly shows a broken flange on the front LH side as viewed. As can be seen, it is mounted on a short section of original chassis behind which is M4 engine number 7328 (perhaps you can date it from this) mounted on its original subframe. One of my two chassis (the J, I believe) still has its engine mounting sub-fame in place. Is there a position on the chassis where the chassis number was stamped by Thornycrofts? The point to this is that this engine (and radiator) is not from either of my chassis, so its association is quite speculative. The scuttle I have has a nameplate showing number 8997 type J, but again, this may not connected to either of my chassis unless the numbers prove to the contrary. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 To my eye, Ian, your radiator has the shape and proportions of that fitted to the J. Doug's has a bit more curve in the bottom tank and may well come from something later such as a Tartar. The only way to be certain would be by measurement and direct comparison with a known vehicle. The engine number can be found in three places. There is a brass plate on the crank case, a brass plate on the scuttle with engine and chassis number and the engine and chassis number are repeated on top of the front left dumb iron. If you get a matching set, then you are very lucky indeed! I can't remember our numbers but will have a look later. Our chassis had suffered damage in that area and the words 'Vehicle' and 'Engine' can be clearly read but not the actual numbers! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted November 25, 2017 Author Share Posted November 25, 2017 Should be about here: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAN_B Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 I had a brief look today in this position and saw nothing! Tomorrow I will try again with a bit of emery - I have three separate chassis including the part one mounting the engine and radiator. The latter one should have the same engine number as on the brass plate on the engine itself. Surely I will find something. I will also recheck the scuttle to check if there is also an engine number appearing, as I only photographed the brass plate with the chassis number I previously quoted (8997 type J). I am quite surprised at the absence of numbers in your photo. The words "vehicle" and "engine" are quite clear. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypugh Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 3 hours ago, IAN_B said: I am quite surprised at the absence of numbers in your photo. The words "vehicle" and "engine" are quite clear. Maybe the burly young apprentice had the job of stamping 'Vehicle" and "Engine" on every chassis, and then Miss Smith, the vehicle records clerk, applied the numbers? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asciidv Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 Even in the 1990's all of Ford's engine numbers were stamped manually by a man with a hammer and a punch set. They weren't stamped in the engine shop but in the vehicle assembly plant before the engine was married to the body. My experience of this was in the Ford Dagenham Assembly Plant which was a relic of old working practices buried under 70 years of grime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypugh Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, Asciidv said: this was in the Ford Dagenham Assembly Plant which was a relic of old working practices buried under 70 years of grime. I believe it is now 86 years of grime. (Guess who I work for?) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted November 25, 2017 Author Share Posted November 25, 2017 7 hours ago, IAN_B said: I am quite surprised at the absence of numbers in your photo. The words "vehicle" and "engine" are quite clear. Ian The numbers are there but they have a crack and hole running through them (and now also a big weld too). I might have a better photo somewhere. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 Do not be surprised at the lack of chassis stamping. I have only come across one chassis in NZ with stamped numbers. To others it has been wire brushing and emery paper then close inspection with a hand lens looking for any sign of malformation where the stamping could of been. Reports from other contacts in Australia also report a lack of stamping. It is as if export chassis were not identified in this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 On 25/11/2017 at 9:53 AM, Old Bill said: t was part of the Subvention Scheme requirements that the radiator be mounted entirely above the chassis Thanks Steve, for its a point I had forgotten about prior to my ramblings! Interesting then as to those radiators shown in Military Service with rounded bases and mounts on the side. Those images are of a series from about the Middle East, so wonder if it was a change and adaptation for the regions of higher temperatures. I do have notes of the various sizes of radiators I've come across, but relating that to the particular time period we are interested in narrows the field down to such a small number and without confirmed data from an original example to compare against. It is the same with the stamped numbers and letters on the king pins of the J's. Trying to produce a data base and dating sequence to those numbers is proving difficult. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAN_B Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 There are absolutely no stampings on my three chassis in the region of the dumb irons. I have rechecked the scuttle (boy, it is heavy, or am I just getting old!) and there is only the one brass plate there, showing the chassis number and model only. So, as Doug says, perhaps the style of radiator was for the tropical climes. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 The top end and radiator of Thornycroft J, No. 2282 have been borrowed from a very late model built for a military contract that was cancelled at the armistice. As can clearly be seen the high-level radiator was fitted to this lorry along with its attendant long top hose connector. This would tend to indicate that military J types were fitted with this arrangement until the end of production. I will attempt to procure the relevant chassis and engine No.s which should give us a cut-off point for the end of this practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 2 hours ago, Tomo.T said: The top end and radiator of Thornycroft J, No. 2282 have been borrowed from a very late model built for a military contract that was cancelled at the armistice. As can clearly be seen the high-level radiator was fitted to this lorry along with its attendant long top hose connector. This would tend to indicate that military J types were fitted with this arrangement until the end of production. I will attempt to procure the relevant chassis and engine No.s which should give us a cut-off point for the end of this practice. Tomo.T could you check about the back of the top tank for casting marks. On the radiators here are a series of raised numbers, but the break down of the alloy makes them very hard to read and make sense of. If these are casting numbers and a date that could assist in this process of dating. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 Our scuttle obviously had two plates. This one is the original but there are four holes present for a plate like Ian's. We think that this one is 1917 vintage. Just for completeness, here is the plate on the crank case. The engine is made up from two where most is from, we think, 1920 but the crank case with plate has an unknown history. It was nice and shiny when we put it on! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgrev Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 Steve. To preserve brass data plates etc their is a speciality coating available called Incralac. I used some over 30 years ago and the brass is still as fresh as the day the coating was done. In Australia back then it was made by Wattyl, but is an American invention. Essentially it is a very high quality varnish. It was available in 100ml tins and in spray cans. Still available by the looks of it: <https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjp6oeflt3XAhWBnJQKHf8GCsAQFggoMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wattyl.net.au%2Fnztechnical%2Fdocument-library%2Ftds%2Fmetal%2FWM326.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1n7vZhXu62r_cYBcsnXFwf> Regards Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 Thanks Doug. I'll investigate further. We have set ourselves the target of getting the body well on its way over the Christmas period so, of course, we need some timber. Big Mark, our joiner pal, has very kindly offered to prepare it all for us. He did a lovely job on the Dennis and made it so easy that we think he must design flat-packs for Ikea in his spare time! Be that as it may, he has started the ball rolling by preparing the cross members for us. As you can see, they are big old chunks of timber which Mark has put together by laminating before cutting and finishing. I must say that they are a lovely job. Here is Mother giving them the seal of approval. They all have chamfers on the ends so I started off by cutting them using Grandfather's spoke shave. which he used whilst building frigates during the war. That was hard work and my hands were pretty sore by the end of the exercise! Notice that we have no work bench so the beam is supported on plastic trestles and G-clamped to one of the door pillars. Just about adequate. Very satisfying results though. The rearmost one has some extensions jointed into it so I worked out a couple of mortices using a mallet and chisel. They took a while too! The result was very satisfying though and I even got them square! Dad then started on the painting. Everything has two coats of primer, two grey undercoat and two top coat. All applied using the lorry as a work bench. How nice it would be to have some more space! All of those bits are now safely stored ready to fit. Mark has promised us the planks shortly so that Father can then get on with painting the undersides as it is so much easier doing that before they are screwed down. I need to focus on some of the body ironwork now as there is quite a lot of that although not so much as there was on the Dennis. Christmas is getting awful close! Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 2 hours ago, Old Bill said: Our scuttle obviously had two plates. This one is the original but there are four holes present for a plate like Ian's. Never seen one like that! Only ever the square type. Let's call it domestic issue only. This conversation is becoming increasing interesting as minor changes become uncovered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Just while we are on the subject, here are the plates from the Portsmouth bus of, I believe, 1919. Note the intaglio plate. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAN_B Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Just for the record, here is the plate on my second engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blastermike Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 (edited) Hi Tim, is the body that you are building for the thorny J being made from a set of plans,? WD type, or have you measured up and copied it from one of the restored examples you have there in England? just wondering, on the radiator front I have three what I think are J types but they are all slightly different, the one with the cross braces I was told came of a j type chassis and this came as a spare with a complete 1923 j chassis nos 10402, third one with brass inserts of the mounting lugs is one I picked up from a collector years ago, be interesting to know for sure, thanks mike. Edited November 28, 2017 by blastermike attaching single pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 A further point of observations to variations of J radiators is the slight changes to the lettering style of the word Thornycroft and more noticeable is the changes of the pattern underneath the name. Once again I've been trying to get these into some form of order to assist dating when a radiator surfaces . Mikes radiators are all noted in my records. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted November 29, 2017 Author Share Posted November 29, 2017 Hi Mike Really need Steve to answer that, but I would say that the top one is a post war J rad which has had a hole knocked through the tubes so that it would fit a war time chassis (possibly). The other two I don't think are J rads. Something smaller but not sure what. Let me have a think. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 Hi Mike. I think Tim is right and that your first rad is definitely from a later J with the correct hole through the core. I suspect that the other two are just a little later and from something else. We are building the body by copying the Carlton Colville lorry which I have no doubt is the original Thornycroft body. A couple of plank ends have been replaced but other than that and being painted red, it is untouched. It is unusual in having some exceptionally wide planks in the sides which we are not replicating as we have photos of more evenly matched planks on other lorries. However, there is a small moulding at the bottom edge of each plank and we have asked Big Mark to reproduce that in each case. I spent a lot of time measuring it up and we have a lot of photos as well so what we build should be pretty close by the time it is finished. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo.T Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 (edited) On 26/11/2017 at 5:09 PM, Tomo.T said: The top end and radiator of Thornycroft J, No. 2282 have been borrowed from a very late model built for a military contract that was cancelled at the armistice. As can clearly be seen the high-level radiator was fitted to this lorry along with its attendant long top hose connector. This would tend to indicate that military J types were fitted with this arrangement until the end of production. I will attempt to procure the relevant chassis and engine No.s which should give us a cut-off point for the end of this practice. The relevant No's are; Vehicle 7322 and Engine M4 / 5256 Delivered June 3rd, 1919. Edited December 3, 2017 by Tomo.T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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