WW1 Thornycroft restoration

[Great War truck]

The Brake Shoes have been cast in SG Iron and have come out very cleanly – and are now ready for machining.

[Asciidv]

Steve, where was the split line on this part and did the moulder have to do any fettling to make it work?

 

Barry.

[Old Bill]

Steve, where was the split line on this part and did the moulder have to do any fettling to make it work?

 

Barry.

 

Hi Barry.

 

I have drawn a red line along the split line for the mould:

 

 

The pattern would have been placed face down on the mould board and the sand packed around. After turning it over, the moulder would have cut the sand manually to follow this line and then filled the top half of the box. The split line of the boxes would be a straight line along the flat surface of the pattern and touching at the sharp corner on the LHS. For just two castings this is quite acceptable. For a lot, he would want a backing piece to fill this space and support the pattern during the first ram up. On turning over, it could be taken out and leave the voids which our moulder cut manually. The moulder is a very skilled man and can make good castings from the most unpromising of patterns. I do try to keep him happy though so that when a tricky one comes along, he is more inclined to intervene to make a good casting!

 

Steve

[Asciidv]

Steve,

 

Thank you for the explanation.

 

 

 

This video shows the moulding of a very similar part. although a slightly different technique is used. Rather than cutting away the sand down to the split line, sand is built up to the split line. There is a whole series of videos by this person showing home foundry exploits.

 

Barry.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Asciidv

[Old Bill]

Thanks for the video Barry. Nice to see it done. I have only read about it and make my patterns to suit. Fortunately, it seems that the moulder reads the same books!

 

Steve

[Redherring]

I also enjoyed watching that.

[Great War truck]

We would like to get the engine reassembly completed as far as we can over the Christmas Break and one of the outstanding items is the Inlet Manifold. This one is of aluminium and is the original one that came with the New Zealand engine and has cleaned up fairly well. It is now ready to fit and the engine is ready to accept it.

[Great War truck]

Quite by chance,we saw another Inlet Manifold at the Banfield Sale in June and were able to buy it. It is obvious that you should always grab a spare when you see one as bits like this are like Hen’s Teeth and another opportunity to obtain one may never come again.

 

This one was quite different from the one that we already had as it is cast in iron whereas the one that we had is in aluminium. The other important thing that caught our eye was that this one still had the “short pipe above the carburettor carrying the governor throttle valve” as described in the Parts Book fitted to it. We did not have one. And the two manifolds are not entirely identical – what would appear to be a drain plug fitted to one is in quite a different place on the other. There is also another nut on the iron one, to the right of the Drain Plug which could well be a gland nut still retaining a broken off piece of pipe – study the photo!

 

The “short pipe” has now been removed from the second manifold. Would the iron version be earlier than the aluminium one? It certainly appears from the original plumbing on the engine that the aluminium one came from a “low level” version of the “Thorny J” and perhaps post war?

 

[Great War truck]

This little device was inserted between the manifold and the “short pipe”. It was not connected to anything and some further research required here to identify it!

[Great War truck]

A rather unusual arrangement of studding to hold the bits together where the studs are not in line and where they overlap. A later “modification” perhaps?

[42 chevy]

I might offer that your drain plug in the manifold could be a primer plug that ether could be squirted into to assist in cold starting. Also your governor could be an early version of a velocity governor, it looks like the remnants of a spring.

 

John G

[GeePig]

This little device was inserted between the manifold and the “short pipe”. It was not connected to anything and some further research required here to identify it!

 

 

Looks like it held something like rubber-cloth discs to form some kind of valve, but it is mounted the wrong way around for it to work as I imagine it. A mystery

 

trevor

[Caddy]

Could be a early type of anti back firing device.....

[Barney]

The manifold gasket device reminds me of a group of articles that come under the general term of Fuel Saving Accessories. Over the years many weird and wonderful designs have been produced, none of which worked other than for the intended purpose of making the seller rich.

Each time there was afuel price rise another batch would come onto the market. Most were designed to be fitted in the inlet side and comprised of gaskets containing spiral air bleeds to swirl the mixture or brass gauzes to break up the fuel droplets; others consisted of a venturi shaped to accelerate and swirl the fuel mixture.

 

Once the inlet side had been saturated they started on the exhaust side. One expensive design was the ‘Jefferator’ and this mushroom shaped thing screwed into a hole tapped into the exhaust manifold and it was designed to bleed air into the exhaust stream. Another expensive design was a chromium plated tube with a swirly fan inside that fitted on the tailpipe, it looked good even if it didn’t save any fuel.

 

Speaking of swirly things I wonder if your device originally had fan blades fitted on the shaft and was designed to swirl the mixture and break up the fuel droplets. Engines burnt a lot of fuel in the early days so anything that would improve the efficiency, however bizarre, would no doubt have been tried.

 

The new transmission brake shoes look really great; machining them should be an interesting project.

 

John

Edited December 17, 2014 by Barney

[Great War truck]

The little device mentioned in the previous note has been partially cleaned and this has revealed some engraved or stamped writing on it. Unfortunately, an interesting part of the writing has been worn away. The Manufacturer’s name appears to be “Hulco” but the interesting part after that is not readable. Anybody got any ideas? And has anybody identified what it is for?

[mash]

Try this http://www.directorypatent.com/GB/279725-a.html

 

item PDF http://worldwide.espacenet.com/espacenetDocument.pdf?flavour=trueFull&locale=en_EP&popup=true&response=8581661&FT=D&date=&CC=GB&NR=279725A&KC=A

[Minesweeper]

Try this http://www.directorypatent.com/GB/279725-a.html

 

item PDF http://worldwide.espacenet.com/espacenetDocument.pdf?flavour=trueFull&locale=en_EP&popup=true&response=8581661&FT=D&date=&CC=GB&NR=279725A&KC=A

 

Many thanks - and well done John B.!

 

Tony

[mtskull]

The little device mentioned in the previous note has been partially cleaned and this has revealed some engraved or stamped writing on it. Unfortunately, an interesting part of the writing has been worn away. The Manufacturer’s name appears to be “Hulco” but the interesting part after that is not readable. Anybody got any ideas? And has anybody identified what it is for?

OK, the top parts of first three letters of the second word are indistinct but I'll eat my hat if the whole thing doesn't read "HULCO ATOMISER".

[Barney]

To make things easier I have copied the Espacenet patent page here.

 

 

John

Edited December 17, 2014 by Barney

[Barney]

Quote; ....... and well done John B.!

 

Thanks Tony.

 

The date of the patent, 9th May 1927, also answers your question as to which manifold , cast or alloy, is the oldest.

 

Hulley went on with a G. Holland to further perfect his design with a new patent in 1930.

 

 

Extract from Espacenet

345729-A is referenced by 1 patents.

345,729. Mixing fans ; admission devices for extra air. HULLEY, W. and HOLLAND, G., Trafalgar House, Watton, Hertfordshire. Jan. 20, 1930, No. 1960. [Class 7 (ii).] One or more suction - actuatec mixing fans are supported by rings m, n, forming inner races for ball-bearings housed in the wall of a flange-shaped fitting f inserted between the flanges of the induction pipe and the carburetter. The rings m, n are of the same bore as the pipe. A gauze screen l is clamped between the outer end race on the engine side of the device and a lip k formed on the member f. The race at the opposite end is located by screwed ring u provided with incisions w on its outer face to facilitate adjustment. When a number of fan s are used they may all rotate in the same direction or the blades of alternate fans may be oppositely inclined.; A spring-loaded extra air admission valve 12, provided with an adjustable perforated cover-plate 14, may be fitted to the periphery of the member f. The ball races are lubricated by a lubricator 17. The surfaces of the fan blades may be perforated, ribbed, or corrugated longitudinally or transversely.

 

I can remember aspects of this design repeated in the 1950/60's as a result of sharp fuel price rises stemming from the Suez Crisis.

 

John

Edited December 17, 2014 by Barney

[.303fan]

you can still get those things as intake cyclones. i always thought it was invented during the 60's.

[mtskull]

[quote name=

 

The date of the patent, 9th May 1927, also answers your question as to which manifold , cast or alloy, is the oldest.

 

The ball races are lubricated by a lubricator 17.

 

]I can remember aspects of this design repeated in the 1950/60's as a result of sharp fuel price rises stemming from the Suez Crisis.

 

John

 

This manifold and associated "short pipe" give a fascinating snapshot of history, although with the greatest of respect, I don't see how it is possible to determine the date of the manifold according to the date of an accessory that was probably fitted after manufacture.

 

The mention of a lubricator may provide a clue to the purpose of the pipe union fitted to the manifold?

 

The extra flange with offset studs suggests an adaptor to allow the fitting of a later carburettor.

 

The oil crisis of the 1970's also gave rise to a plethora of similar devices claimed to improve fuel economy. They all had one thing in common: they didn't work, or if they did it was at the expense of performance.

I suspect that the "Hulco Atomiser" is no different; unless the carburettor was grossly inefficient to begin with, any benefit gained from better atomisation was likely to be more than offset by the detrimental effect of placing an obstruction in the intake tract. A similar trade-off of performance against economy could have been achieved by simply restricting the throttle so that it couldn't open fully.

[Minesweeper]

This manifold and associated "short pipe" give a fascinating snapshot of history, although with the greatest of respect, I don't see how it is possible to determine the date of the manifold according to the date of an accessory that was probably fitted after manufacture.

 

The mention of a lubricator may provide a clue to the purpose of the pipe union fitted to the manifold?

 

Of course, we have no idea where that manifold originated from - or how old the "Thorny" was to which it was originally fitted. My guess as well is that the Atomiser was fitted in the Lorry's later life when in civilian use to try to save on fuel and that it was never a military fitting.

 

Again I am only guessing but I remember reading somewhere that aluminium was substituted for iron later on during the War period where possible because of shortage of iron - so if that is the case, it would make the iron one possibly the earlier of the two............

 

Tony

[GeePig]

 

Again I am only guessing but I remember reading somewhere that aluminium was substituted for iron later on during the War period where possible because of shortage of iron - so if that is the case, it would make the iron one possibly the earlier of the two............

 

Tony

 

... unless they reverted to iron after the war

 

When did the finally cease production of this engine, as a matter of interest?

 

I wonder if you could hear the atomiser whine at high speed, and whether the engine stuttered when/if it eventually ate the fatigued spinner blades?

 

trevor

[flandersflyer]

The manifold gasket device reminds me of a group of articles that come under the general term of Fuel Saving Accessories. Over the years many weird and wonderful designs have been produced, none of which worked other than for the intended purpose of making the seller rich.

Each time there was afuel price rise another batch would come onto the market. Most were designed to be fitted in the inlet side and comprised of gaskets containing spiral air bleeds to swirl the mixture or brass gauzes to break up the fuel droplets; others consisted of a venturi shaped to accelerate and swirl the fuel mixture.

 

Once the inlet side had been saturated they started on the exhaust side. One expensive design was the ‘Jefferator’ and this mushroom shaped thing screwed into a hole tapped into the exhaust manifold and it was designed to bleed air into the exhaust stream. Another expensive design was a chromium plated tube with a swirly fan inside that fitted on the tailpipe, it looked good even if it didn’t save any fuel.

 

Speaking of swirly things I wonder if your device originally had fan blades fitted on the shaft and was designed to swirl the mixture and break up the fuel droplets. Engines burnt a lot of fuel in the early days so anything that would improve the efficiency, however bizarre, would no doubt have been tried.

 

The new transmission brake shoes look really great; machining them should be an interesting project.

 

John

theres a wikipedia on the subject...here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_saving_device