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WW1 Thornycroft restoration

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Thank you very much, gentlemen, for all of your comments and suggestions. I appreciate them all.

I could cast it but that would be a lot of effort and it still wouldn't be right. If I don't solve the issue, then I will mitre and silver solder it but I haven't given up yet. I did find a good advertisement and demonstration of a mandrel bender and it is exactly the tool I need. At £300- I was almost tempted but then I realised that it was another £300- per pipe size for the tooling so I didn't. I have found a pipe manipulation company nearby so I will give them a ring and see if they will do just one. It would be a pain in the neck for them but you never know, they might just!

In the meantime, we have had a good procductive weekend and I will post some photos in a number of batches.

First, the water system. As you have seen, we have made three castings which Father has spent hours cleaning up and drilling. The fourth one was a brass and copper fabrication which is odd really. I wonder why they didn't just do another casting? Anyway, you have seen me silver soldering bits together because of my inability to bend 2" pipe and it remained only to correctly align the elbow before silver soldering the flange on the end. I just pushed it into the flange, twisted it into line, marked it and brazed it.

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All went well but it came out filthy! Dad's pickle tank is very weak these days so I simply opted for the emery paer to clean it up.

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Quite acceptable.

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We had some hse in stock which was a very tight fit but a little washing up liquid helped things along.

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On it went with some thick gasket and Red Hermetite.

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A rummage in the jubilee clip bag and the joints were made.

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I also wanted to fit the big hoses on the castings but, unfortunately, we didn't have any in stock so Dad ordered some. With perfect timing, the hose turned up on Friday morning but, rather to our dismay, had this bright orange lettering along it! Some emery soon sorted that!

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Some thick gasket paper and a ring of Hermetite and we were away again.

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All three castings down on thick gaskets and some cut lengths of hose in place.

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We didn't have any clips the right size but Dad ordered them on Saturday and they arrived today so he fitted them and that is another job ticked off!

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Now, I am pretty sure that they had not invented jubilee clips at this time so, in due course, I shall make up some brass, bolted ones that look right. However, for the moment, we will live with these as time is pressing and we need to focus on the jobs we can't do without, first!

More shortly.

Steve  :) 

 

Edited by Old Bill
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9 hours ago, Old Bill said:

Now, I am pretty sure that they had not invented jubilee clips at this time so, in due course, I shall make up some brass, bolted ones that look right. However, for the moment, we will live with these as time is pressing

You are correct:

"The original Jubilee Clip was invented by Commander Lumley Robinson of the British Royal Navy, who was granted the first patent for the device by the London Patent Office in 1921[citation needed] while operating as a sole trader."

But they could easily have been fitted soon after the war as an in-service repair. 

 

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On 16/01/2018 at 4:11 AM, Asciidv said:

Fesm-ndt, if you have chance when you get back from eating your pudding, I would love to see a scan of the table of offsets and mandrel radii. I made a rudimentary mandrel bender for one size of pipe and just guessed and experimented with the settings until it worked, never thinking that there were tables of such information.

Thanks,

Barry.

I just got back to the big city......I'll dig the book up tomorrow.  I remember at trade school we used to have to mark it out with presets as couldn' scrap aircraft tubing

Edited by fesm_ndt
Delusional spelling mistakes

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18 hours ago, Old Bill said:

Now, I am pretty sure that they had not invented jubilee clips at this time so, in due course, I shall make up some brass, bolted ones that look right. However, for the moment, we will live with these as time is pressing and we need to focus on the jobs we can't do without, first!

More shortly.

Steve  :) 

 

Is this the type of hose clip that you are going to make?

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https://www.vintagecarparts.co.uk/products/726-nesthill-hose-clip-hose-clamp

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A bit more refined than the sort I make. I will look out a photo shortly. If I only wanted one, I might pay that price but the Thorny needs 6 and when we did the Autocar, there were 28!

Steve   :) 

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A couple of smaller jobs were ticked off this weekend. The first was to sort out the fan belt. The original Whittle belting we had been given is wonderful but it was too slack and needed some special links making up. I don't want to do that now so I bought some modern link belting which I fitted. It should get us going and I can sort the proper belt another day.

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Then I fitted the oil pressure gauge. Unfortunately, the pipe had not arrived so that will be done next time.

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Then the magneto switch.

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And finally, the makers plate.

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That has been on my book case for 25 years as well. At least I won't have to dust it any more!

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I just need to pluck up the courage to stamp some numbers in it.

Steve     :)

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Steve

How come you blokes don't use silicon hose for peace of mind? Yes it is quite expensive, but I think good insurance given the age of your engines and the work required if one of them should blow a hose and boil (and warp). Chances are you would know the event has occured being  that they are front engined, but one less stuck-by-the-side-of-the-road scenario.

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15 minutes ago, dgrev said:

Steve

How come you blokes don't use silicon hose for peace of mind? Yes it is quite expensive, but I think good insurance given the age of your engines and the work required if one of them should blow a hose and boil (and warp). Chances are you would know the event has occured being  that they are front engined, but one less stuck-by-the-side-of-the-road scenario.

Yuck !!!! how about they could fit a Ford Transit Diesel engine in for reliability ? 

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17 minutes ago, dgrev said:

 

How come you blokes don't use silicon hose for peace of mind? 

Engines of this period typically run unpressurised cooling systems, so the hoses have an easy life.  

And considering that Steve is concerned about anachronistic hose clips, I suspect authenticity is also part of the explanation. 

Edited by andypugh
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On 24/01/2018 at 8:33 AM, dgrev said:

How come you blokes don't use silicon hose for peace of mind?

What I really wanted was a plain black hose which doesn't look wrong. All of the silicone rubber hoses I have seen have been bright blue or brick red and would rather stand out. This hose is probably EPDM rubber but it does not attract the eye. Well, it doesn't since I rubbed off the orange text anyway! I am not concerned about failure as it is an unpressurized system and I am sure that a bit of tape would get me home, push comes to shove. The poor old Dennis has done less than 100 miles per year since we did it so I don't think it will suffer with over use. No doubt time will tell and I may have to eat my words!

We did a few other things over the weekend. I also tried to install the last part of the exhaust system.

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You might be able to see that in spite of my best efforts, the flange on the end of the down pipe didn't quite line up and there was 1/16" gap at the rearmost end. If I had done it up like that, I would have cracked something so forty minutes with a file saw it brought into line and fitted with a nice new exhaust gasket. One more ticked off!

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Then I had a go at the fuel lines. I found some copper pipe in the drawer.

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An hour of work with the trusty pipe bender and I was away. The pipe bender was a very good investment at an auto jumble. It was only a cheap one but it does everything I could want.

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Ready to have the unions brazed on.

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Soldered cleaned and polished.

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Fittings done up and job done.

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I shall make up a P-clip for the middle of the pipe shortly.

More progress!

Steve     :)

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Steve.

I had not realised 2 things when I made my suggestion about the silicone hose.

1) That the Thorny cooling system is not pressurised. As you say, some tape will suffice to get you home if you spring a leak. Perhaps also some self-amalgamating tape just to be sure?

2) That the silicone only comes in blue or red. I suppose that is a known feature so that people don't discard it as rubber when doing more involved work. It is way too expensive to throw away.

Given our huge distances in Oz and that getting stranded can be not only a massive inconvenience but also life threatening in the wrong weather, cooling system integrity is a concern. I am told that it is now common practise for the long haul and remote truckers that when they buy a new truck, the first thing they do is cut off all the rubber hoses and replace them with silicone. They can then ignore the cooling system for at least 1/2 million km until such time as say the water pump needs replacing.

Regards

Doug

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2 hours ago, Old Bill said:

What I really wanted was a plain black hose which doesn't look wrong. All of the silicone rubber hoses I have seen have been bright blue or brick red and would rather stand out. 

Hi,

Just as an FYI, silicone hoses are available in every colour you could possibly want. We use them as standard on all our older vehicles for reliability and longevity. Black silicone hose can be made to look very similar to rubber by rubbing with dust, mud, talc etc. to take away the shine. (I fully understand your desire for authenticity but someone else reading this may be interested).

This is my preferred UK supplier but there are others: http://www.autosiliconehoses.com/

Please note that silicone is not recommended for oil/fuel applications as they will delaminate.

Regards - MG

 

Edited by TooTallMike
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On 13/01/2018 at 7:14 PM, Old Bill said:

My goodness, what a response! Thank you everyone for your help and suggestions.

Looking at what I have done so far and what I have around me this is the plan for tomorrow. I have glued up the split press block and that is going off now. I have cut a new length of tube and will braze up one end. I shall then pack it with some dried sand and seal up the other end. I shall put it back between the blocks but support them width-ways with G-clamps. Then, I will have another go. Watch this space!

Steve     :) 

I really like the steady as she goes attitude of this restoration. Top class work well documented, looks factory fresh. I am looking forward to the start up.

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4 hours ago, john1950 said:

I am looking forward to the start up.

Aren't we all!

Steve     :) 

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I'm not really following the argument about silicone hoses. I can see it might be more of an issue in extreme climates or where rubber is particularly exposed to environmental degradation, but in a lot of years of driving I can only recall having an issue with a hose once - and arguably when I was young and naive - or on vehicles that had sat rusting for 30 years.

 

I'm also not sure I'd want to ignore a cooling system for half a million km, even though given Australian distances they probably clock that up rapidly - don't these guys do routine checks?

Having said that, I'll probably get a blown hose now...

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Your problem with bending copper tube ,  new metric equiv. is not the same grade  or wall thickness as the obsolete Imperial where it was classified as  Table X  ,  Y  or  W.     Domestic pipe would be Table X ,  just compare present day 15mm / 22mm to the old  1/2"  /  3/4"   -  far less in wall thickness and it does not bend as well freehand with a spring or with a tube bender.   I have bent copper & thick walled seamless steam pipe using the dry silver sand method , you have to cap one end , and ram the sand hard by passing a close fitting piece of bar in the tube and use a pneumatic riveting hammer with a anvil dolly tool - then drive in a taper wood plug.

Edited by ruxy

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Thanks for all of your comments regarding the silicone hoses. It is always nice to have an alternative option should I need it. We use EPDM at work but have moved to silicone rubber on those where we have had problems. There is a very significant cost difference though.

On the subject of bending tube, the piece I have been using is very thin only about 18swg. I have a similar sized original piece left over from the Dennis and that is over 1/8" thick so I am sure that it makes a significant difference. I must ring my local tube bending company and see what they have to say. Failing that it may well be a hot bending exercise using acetylene to get it hot locally. With the propane I can only get it generally hot so I can't control where it yields. I have a volunteer who is prepared to have a go so we shall see. I will think on this and have a go with something else for a bit.

Steve      :)

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Here in Oz, half a million Km is quite common in a year by trucks plying the likes of the Newell Highway from Melbourne to Brisbane (about 1700Km each way) when the trucks are only shut down for oil changes. So reliability is an absolute must.

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Sean

As Ian said above, 1/2 million km is easy peasy in Oz. The distance from Sydney to Perth is 3,934km one way!

 Companies doing what the Yanks call "line haul" ie. a regular freight run, have trucks dedicated to that route, often road trains, so are constantly worked hard. Where I live in Broken Hill in the Outback is a driver change over point. The trucks are left running, the drivers swap over and it takes about as much time to do as it took you to read this. 

It is 41 hours driving time plus fuel, eating stops and mandatory rest breaks Sydney <-> Perth . So roughly 2 days. Thus they can get in a maximum of  2 1/2 trips per week. If we average that as 2 trips per week (to allow for maintenance etc) then that is close enough to 16,000 km per week. So 1/2 million km takes about 9 months.

They use "for life" coolant (realistically it is probably changed once a year or perhaps twice a year) which along with the oils is tested for chemical failure and metal products by the smarter companies to forestall breakdowns. Some companies just change at stated intervals without worrying about the testing. 

What did amaze me the other day is that it is not uncommon now for the roadtrain trucks to have such heavy spec gear that the drivers do not even attempt to change their own flat tyres but call in a tyre company from the nearest regional centre whose service trucks have air driven ratchet guns and small hydraulic powered jibs (mini Hyab arm). This is due to wheel nut torques as high as 500 ft lbs!!!

I have not heard what the average working life span in km of these vehicles is.

Thus I leave it to you to imagine the logistical nightmare of having a truck blow a hose and cook its engine somewhere on the Nullarbor Plain in 45°C temperatures hundreds of miles from the nearest regional centre (ie. town big enough to have a truck business) and what is needed to recover the prime mover and 2 full sized trailers. The hassle of then sending another prime mover to resume the trip and relocating the dead prime mover back to base for an engine swap.

Much easier to pay the cost of silicon hoses.

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Truly, you do live in a different world!

With the imminent arrival of the bonnet, we thought it time to get on with the front bonnet support. This is a piece of 1" steel angle, bent to the profile of the radiator and secured at the base with two bent brackets. I sketched these up and Dad made them some time ago. DSCN2414.JPG.24572ac4533b4bc72943d23d00b86a03.JPG

The hard bit was to bend the angle. It was going to have to be done hot so I made up a jig for the anvil and then tried heating the angle in my fire pot.

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This didn't work very well as I couldn't get it deeply enough into the fire. The first bending attempt did not go well and in the end, we opted for using the propane.

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As you can see, it was tricky but the more localised heat did the trick and we had quite a few sessions if heating and hitting whilst trying to remember which bits were hot!

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I had previously cut a wooden template to give us some guidance during the bending process. I wasn't thinking very hard when  this picture was taken though! The bit you can see is that the angle is just a bit narrower in order to allow space for the leather rubbing strips.

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A good while was spent easing it in the vice and then cleaning up with a flap wheel in the pistol drill. It was also cut roughly to length.

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It was then clamped into place to get an accurate length and also to see where the rivets were to go.

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Holes were drilled for the leather securing rivets and also the rivets to attach it to the base supports

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Some snap head iron rivets knocked over in the vice.

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Then dressed off with a file and flap wheel.

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Job done and ready for painting.

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All painted and fitted and ready for the bonnet to arrive.

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Bonnet is due very shortly. I can't wait!

Steve     :)

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Look what we've got!

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Another friend, also Adrian, from Dartford has made up the complete bonnet for us to my drawings and delivered it in person on Saturday. After admiring it greatly, we had to try it.

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It is a seriously heavy and awkward beast.

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Success! Almost perfect, first go!

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A little tight at the rear right corner but only minor.

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Looking good!

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After removing it again, I spent some time adjusting it. The gutters beneath the hinges just fouled so I took a half inch off each end with a disc cutter.

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And then a 1/4" from the rear edge.

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Before fitting the bonnet catches made up by Father a while back.

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There is a hole front and back on the centre line to locate it.

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It really is a cussing awkward thing to work on. Don't know how Dad is going to paint it.

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The centre peg for the front end, screwed to the support angle.

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Looks like a lorry at last!

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Dad has the great joy of painting the thing now. Unfortunately, the radiator took a bashing whilst we tried to fit it and remove it but that won't be touched up until it is on for good.

Another one to be ticked off!

Steve   :)

 

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Steve.

Out of curiosity, how was the paint done originally?

Spray or brush or something else?

What was the original paint? Just real turps, tinter, linseed oil and a bulking agent such as titanium dioxide

or say Nitro-Cellulose?

Regards

Doug

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If the Thornycroft factory was like the Dennis factory, everything was brush painted exclusively by women.

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Its coming along nicely by the looks of it.

Keep up the good work and who knows I might stop by in the future.

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I must admit that I have no idea what sort of paint they used although it was all applied with a brush. It was described only as 'Service colour'. I do know that the paint shop was staffed by women, however!

Now that the bonnet and bonnet frame are in, we could see where the radiator overflow needed to go. First job was to flare the end of a piece of tube that has been waiting for this job for over a year!

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It is a good tool which came from our local but sadly now defunct second hand tool shop, a great loss. The tube was bent up using a home made pipe bender. (1/2" dia, I can cope with!)

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Installed with a suitable P-clip and another job is done.

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Dad has been to the foundry and picked up the two latest castings. The block on the left is to be cut into three to make the tailboard hinges. The lever is part of the foot brake system.

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Just two patterns left!

Steve  :)

Edited by Old Bill

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