RAF vehicle camouflage

[Rlangham]

I've seen this asked on another forum so thought I might give it a go here. In WW2, what colour would the emergency vehicle's at RAF bases (especially the fire tenders) be painted in? The Airfix kit of an Austin K6 fire tender says it should be in red, but the Fordson fire tender I saw the other day was a sort of olive drab, and i've seen models in RAF blue, can anyone help out?

[ted angus]

Larry, where did you get the info on its delivery colour ?  The 1937 Crossley Teardrops were definately in red, there is an old Flight or Aeroplane article written after a demonstration at Cranwell in which the CPL ic states he is very pleased with his shiney new red fire engine,; turning to you attached pic, giving the technical qualities of colour film at the time I can't see how you can judge the colours, it will look slightly different depending on the monitor its viewed on, by the rounday yhe pic will be no earlier than 1941 ?  I have always considered this to show   KG3 and a dark colour possibly Tarmac grey  ?? thoughts TED 

Edited December 1, 2017 by ted angus

[LarryH57]

Ted thanks as ever!

I thought that red fire engines were only a post war thing, so its interesting to read that one at least was red pre-war. However its a bit hard for me to see any other base colour other than Blue Grey in the photo I attached. Seeing also that the Crossley at RAF Northolt (in Blue Grey with Black mudguards) that you commented on earlier, I don't think it is out of the question to have a Blue Grey tender with a bit of camo on it (even if it is not in a style agreed by AMO.

Edited December 2, 2017 by LarryH57

[79x100]

On 23/11/2017 at 10:05 AM, RAFMT said:

Ted - the Museum's balloon winch carries the roundel on the wing (not introduced until 41) and has painted, not aluminium, RAF letters. So it's more like a slightly incorrect post-war scheme. Although at the end of the day it's splitting hairs really.

As for the Khaki, G3 is not Khaki it's Khaki-Green. Lord knows why they decided to complicate matters with a name like that (I assume they used that name, it's how I've always heard it referred to). Khaki is and always was Khaki as in Khaki Dress uniforms- a sort of Light Stone colour. The RAF seemed averse to using British Standard 318 colours at this time (which is different from BS318 including colours already used by the RAF) so the stores vocabs wont get us any closer to an exact shade. Certainly the photographs show a light colour, definitely not dark enough to be KG3. 

Besides, the RAF liked to keep it's members busy, including hand mixing each batch of of paint; and Mr Angus knows about hand mixing paint for use in the Middle East!

This confusion of terminology seems characteristic of the late 1930s. My specific knowledge is based on the colour annotations in the Norton motorcycle factory ledgers. Pre-war, Air Ministry Nortons were simply noted as 'Blue' and Department of Army Contracts as 'Green'. Through this period,  the India Office were shown as 'Khaki'. The Army machines at this stage were gloss bronze green.  In October 1938, this changed to 'Dull Green' and evidence from components shows that a matt bronze green was used for a short period.  This all changed on 13th June 1939 with the comment 'First khaki solo WD m/cs'...and then with the next India Office build on 17/7/1939 they were suddenly shown as 'Matt Brown'.

There is no evidence of India vehicles becoming SCC No.2 in 1939 and it seems likely that subsequent to the War Office appropriating 'Khaki' for their Khaki Green Gas Proof colour, it was necessary to re-define the dull mud colour previously known as khaki and used for Middle / Far East transport.

[Richard Farrant]

23 minutes ago, 79x100 said:

 

There is no evidence of India vehicles becoming SCC No.2 in 1939 and it seems likely that subsequent to the War Office appropriating 'Khaki' for their Khaki Green Gas Proof colour, it was necessary to re-define the dull mud colour previously known as khaki and used for Middle / Far East transport.

As I understand it the SCC range of colours were not introduced until 1941.

[79x100]

That's my understanding too, Richard. I was really just trying to make the point that there is no real evidence that the India Office vehicles changed colour at all. Simply a need to alter the name.

[LarryH57]

Ted.

Another thought: In the RAFM is a Leyland Trojan Van in RAF Blue Grey but these were built well before 1937

So how come this example and ones seen in period photos show this colour even though it wasn't in BS. 381c till 1933?

[RAFMT]

Larry, the photo of the fire engine could be any colour - the colour film of the period was notoriously bad and rarely gave the actual shade. I agree with Ted, the darker colour is probably Nobel's Dark Tarmac (a dark grey with a hint of blue is the best description). And i don't think that roundel helps too much given how much light is reflecting off it.

As for the Trojan, firstly it is unlikely to have been an RAF one. It belonged to a teacher who rebuilt it and used it for jollies and going on school trips in the sixties. He donated it to the Museum. As for the colour, BS381 was an attempt to codify the colours in official use, as well as introduce new ones for various purposes.  

[LarryH57]

Thanks Bryan.

Regarding the Trojan Vans which were built from about 1927, what I'm asking  is whether the colour scheme is correct (whether or not it's a real ex-RAF vehicle) ? In looking at Bart Vanderveen's book on military vehicles up to 1940 the GB section regarding Vans shows an RAF vehicle that also looks decidedly gloss Blue Grey and not Service Brown (as used in WW1 till 1930's) nor gloss dark green either. If so that means the Blue Grey must have been in use quite early and before it was added to the range of colours in 1933.

Edited December 4, 2017 by LarryH57

[Baz48]

I find guessing a colour even with knowledge of the subject from a historical black and white photograph can only be a personal interpretation rather than factual 

[LarryH57]

Baz - I totally agree but on the other hand if you know the period of the photo and the orders for the period its a fare assumption. After all there could be someone saying that all British Vehicles in WW2 were painted in two shades of grey as every photo it seems shows this. 

[Baz48]

1 hour ago, LarryH57 said:

Baz - I totally agree but on the other hand if you know the period of the photo and the orders for the period its a fare assumption. After all there could be someone saying that all British Vehicles in WW2 were painted in two shades of grey as every photo it seems shows this. 

The assumption again is the photo is genuine, knowledge of the subject and faith in the person interpreting the source photo - attached is a photo of a convoy with several variations in colour all green but which I can't tell - the photo is Malay 1952 in subsequent photos some vehicles appear gloss finish while others appear matt for similar vehicles side by side

[LarryH57]

Going back to the question of Crossley FE1 Crash Tenders, Ted suggests that at least one pre-war was gloss red, so somewhere there must be an AMO requesting such or a note to manufactureres asking for them to be delivered like that. Unfortuately I can't find when the production of the FE1 ended or where they were built

Obviously from the outbreak of war they were toned down somewhat with camo

BTW - The attached photo is the one that made me think everything pre-war was RAF Blue Grey. It doesn't look shiney. If it is matt camo then it was less likely to have RAF on the side (though not impossible) as 'RAF' soom disappeared on camo'd vehicles in favour of the roundel. Could it be gloss red when no part of it seems to shine?

Incidentally, did you notice that the Crossley FE1 in the colour photo above has gloss wheels, which still makes me think it was Blue Grey originally

Edited December 8, 2017 by LarryH57

[ted angus]

Larry I don't think this is cammo   its all shadows; It was the 1937 Crossley Teardrop that was red according to the period article, the above was a 1938 production so I would assume also in red ?? TED 

[LarryH57]

Ted, I should haven't said camo when what I meant was a matt base colour of G3. I appreciate that they are just shaddows on the engine cover - so the options for the colour of the Crossley FE1 Crash Tender above are; Gloss Red, Gloss RAF Blue Grey or Matt base colour of G3 or similar. We may never know.

And now for something different; a photo of Middleton St George I guess in 1945, which I think you may have seen. Can you or other members ID the truck at the tip of the second Lanc's wingtip?  I believe the vehicle pulling the control hut is a Commer Q2  heater van, and what looks like an AEC Matador 6x6 refueler covered in people is on the left with a Bedford MW nearby.

Edited December 12, 2017 by LarryH57

[Richard Farrant]

4 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

Ted, I should haven't said camo when what I meant was a matt base colour of G3. I appreciate that they are just shaddows on the engine cover - so the options for the colour of the Crossley FE1 Crash Tender above are; Gloss Red, Gloss RAF Blue Grey or Matt base colour of G3 or similar. We may never know.

And now for something different; a photo of Middleton St George I guess in 1945, which I think you may have seen. Can you or other members ID the truck at the tip of the second Lanc's wingtip?  I believe the vehicle pulling the control hut is a Commer Q2  heater van, and what looks like an AEC Matador 6x6 refueler covered in people is on the left with a Bedford MW nearby.

Looks like it could be a Dodge D60, there is another top left with no canopy.

[10FM68]

A fascinating picture.  Do you know what was happening?  There are several staff cars present, Humber Snipes and a larger, US-looking one inside the hollow square and dozens of bicycles piled behind the ATC trailer.  There is a band and flags and someone dressed differently from all the others by the door of the car in the centre - in a Mac - is he an American?  Some uniforms seem darker than others - RAAF?  But, intriguingly, no one is looking at the centre, they're all looking across to bottom right of the photo - in front of the leading Lanc.  If 1945, could it be a send off for RAAF going home?

 

10 68

[LarryH57]

Its actually 428 Squadron RCAF, as they used NA codes and were at Middleton St George till May 1945. I guess the crowd is looking towards a low flying Lancaster perhaps or other Sqn hack that was used to take the photo? I agree it looks to be a visit from a VIP which might have been the Canadian PM or Ambassador

[ted angus]

Its a shot taken as the Sqn departs at the end of the war for Canada.  I also think its a Dodge D60.      Larry bearing in mind the Crossley shot is crca 1938   we will never be certain as film was much cruder then, but I think the truck is red   with a chrome radiator shroud.  TED

 

[10FM68]

6 hours ago, ted angus said:

Its a shot taken as the Sqn departs at the end of the war for Canada.    TED

Thank you for that - and to Larry for identifying the squadron. So, I had the right idea - just the wrong people going in the wrong direction!

10 68

 

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by 10FM68

[Baz48]

On 12/12/2017 at 1:13 PM, LarryH57 said:

Ted, I should haven't said camo when what I meant was a matt base colour of G3. I appreciate that they are just shaddows on the engine cover - so the options for the colour of the Crossley FE1 Crash Tender above are; Gloss Red, Gloss RAF Blue Grey or Matt base colour of G3 or similar. We may never know.

And now for something different; a photo of Middleton St George I guess in 1945, which I think you may have seen. Can you or other members ID the truck at the tip of the second Lanc's wingtip?  I believe the vehicle pulling the control hut is a Commer Q2  heater van, and what looks like an AEC Matador 6x6 refueler covered in people is on the left with a Bedford MW nearby.

Nice photo but a cropped section of DND Archives PL-44557 Caption MAY 31 - 1945 Lancaster Bombers of 428 "GHOST" Squadron and 428 "MOOSE" Squadron Taxi on the Flight Line in Yorkshire England - 

Looking at the Lancasters the lead aircraft  is possibly a Canadian built machine note the lack of a pronounced collar around the mid-upper turret with twin .5 cal as opposed to the second machine with the .303 cal also note the difference in the roundels on the upper wings, little in the way of standardization -

I'm not sure there was a 6x6 Matador refueling vehicle but there was an AEC 854 & 0854 6x6  2,500-gal Petrol Tanker I believe Matador refers to the AEC  "Matador" Tractor 4x4 Field Artillery or so a little publication from 1944 to do with Bridge Classification of Vehicles Army and RAF list

[LarryH57]

Baz,

Thanks for your post. I never have any luck in finding WW2 photos in the Canadian Archives at all, as it seems my requests in their search function gives everything bar a list of photos! 

Any clues

 

Edited December 15, 2017 by LarryH57

[Baz48]

4 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

Baz,

Thanks for your post. I never have any luck in finding WW2 photos in the Canadian Archives at all, as it seems my requests in their search function gives everything bar a list of photos! 

Any clues

 

Found the photo by chance while searching on Google for RAF Squadrons photos 

[ted angus]

here is a better version and another of the same or similar occasion.  TED.

 

[Baz48]

What a great photo guessing taken from the driver’s seat of a Lancaster showing the diversity of vehicle types used by the air force. The photo captioned KB-721 Returning Home, a Lancaster Mk X Canadian built with a reputation for bring all its crew home from more than fifty operationally sorties including daylight raids returned to Canada and scraped                                                                                                                                          

[ted angus]

 OK a piece of Works Plant taken early on with its anti collision discs fitted- now what colour is the roller -  AMOs A731 of 1940  required orange or another bright colour AMO A486 of 1944 required orange stores ref 33A/125    ??  TED.

  ps believe pic taken at Harwell or Bicester