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RAF vehicle camouflage


Rlangham

Question

I've seen this asked on another forum so thought I might give it a go here. In WW2, what colour would the emergency vehicle's at RAF bases (especially the fire tenders) be painted in? The Airfix kit of an Austin K6 fire tender says it should be in red, but the Fordson fire tender I saw the other day was a sort of olive drab, and i've seen models in RAF blue, can anyone help out?

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Yes colourised B&W is always been my worry unless a photo came from Life Magazine. Those colourised ones from wartime are easier to spot that ones amended on a PC. Having said that, I have seen a few B&W photos that I happen to know were taken in colour!

 

Keep on searching!

 

And BTW - that Canadian truck photo above, is interesting in that there is a Wellbike in use in the Middle East. I thought they were priority for Airborne in NW Europe, so would the RAF be issued with any? And even if its a Soldier on the bike which unit is he with and what date?

Edited by LarryH57
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And now another camo colour conundrum; this Austin (sorry Bedford) seen in Bomber Command 1939-41 looks as if the cab is still gloss! The IWM did not give a place of date in the photo description

 

Is it a vehicle taken in to use when it was half way through being painted? Is it civi impressed? Am I imagining things?

Austin 1941.jpg

Edited by LarryH57
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And now another camo colour conundrum; this Austin seen in Bomber Command 1939-41 looks as if the cab is still gloss! The IWM did not give a place of date in the photo description

 

Is it a vehicle taken in to use when it was half way through being painted? Is it civi impressed? Am I imagining things?

May I suggest the vehicle is a BEDFORD MSC 30-CWT TENDER produced 1940 and not an Austin

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May I suggest the vehicle is a BEDFORD MSC 30-CWT TENDER produced 1940 and not an Austin

 

 

Yes definitely a Bedford MSC; Production of both the MS And ML started in june 1939 and was suspended on the outbreak of hostilities. ( resuming post war) This example is an MSC with the body by Spurling, later in Service life they were fited with larger tyres.

The pic was taken at Oakington, yes a strange paint job ??

TED

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Yes, agreed a Bedford. I'll have to be less hasty next time!

 

Was this type of Bedford bought specifically for the RAF or were these impressed civi stock? I'm just wondering if the cab was in RAF Grey at some time or whether as an impressed vehicle it has its civi paint showing through, which could have been any colour such as gloss emerald green?

 

It also makes me wonder what type of paint was used; something that would stay on the wood of the rear cargo area might not suit for the gloss paint on the cab?

Edited by LarryH57
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Yes, agreed a Bedford. I'll have be less hasty next time!

 

Was this type of Bedford bought specifically for the RAF or were these impressed civi stock? I'm just wondering if the cab was in RAF Grey at some time or whether as an impressed vehicle it has its civi paint showing through, which could have been any colour such as gloss emerald green?

 

It also makes me wonder what type of paint was used; something that would stay on the wood of the rear cargo area might not suit for the gloss paint on the cab?

 

The Bedford MSC 30cwt Tender was built for the RAF under Contract no. 993506/39/C15a I would imagine it was painted in coach paint which providing the primer and undercoat is applied correctly will work well on wood or metal.

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Thanks Richard; So if the paint was prepared correctly when it was made I can only assume the camo paint was not. There are stories going around that the RAF at the beginning of the war (some say after the fall of France / BoB era) painted vehicles in camo paint that 'had been stockpiled to camouflage RAF buildings'. Not being a 1940's paint expert I would have thought that paint for buildings would have been a water soluble distemper such as used on brickwork, that would have been useless in the same way as fabric dope colours for aircraft. So is this Bedford an example of rush job?

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lets jump to post war to an era when I was fully involved in RAF paint management. We used the same basic Alkyd based enamel finish coat paint on both metal and wooden parts of vehicles and ground equipment- we used the same undercoat- for vehicles irrespective of substrate-eg RAF BG and DBG,, it was Admiralty grey ( as indeed it was for traffic blue applied to GSE); However the key component was the primer, this varied according to the substrate- i e ferrous , non-ferrous or timber;each had its own primer- incorrect use of primer was in my day one of the biggest causes of repaint failure; My theory is- The Oakington shot of the Bedford is from an IWM collection taken at the station during its Stirling bomber days, the shots are posed- now most drivers in those days were still civvy staff- ( see the driver in the Duxford crash truck pic) did the Bedford driver get a rag soaked in paraffin or petrol to spruce up his cab for the pic ?- or did he do this every day before taking his truck out of the MT yard ? the ali letters RAF on the door are fully exposed.

Returning to WW2 unfortunately we still don't know the full picture re the transition to war- there is home cine film that has been online showing feverish activities at Aldergrove at the time personnel both regular and reserve were recalled pending the fateful announcement- there is a guy with a spray gun zapping everything that moves !!! this was being done with minimal surface preperation. My theory is that in each station's "war book " there was an order to procure supplies of synthetic paint to meet colour x, y or z that will be applied at a given time- look at pics of vehicles being embarked for France in Aug & sept of 39 and many are camo. I think whilst there are many fanciful stories they have their origins from years ago when people still though dark earth and khaki were the vehicle colours of WW2 ! Here is another thought in the lead up to WW2 a Home Office dept entitled the Civil Defence Camouflage Establishment in conjunction with the paint industry produced a range of colours to be used on building and facilities, various colour cards each known as shade card numbers were produced to enable local boroughs, and commercial set-ups to purchase paint- made by a supplier to the chip on the card- this range of colours by the Civil Defence Camouflage Establishment was known spec CDCE/987c - it later became BS 987c with shade card numbers becoming standard camo colours- so from that we can see that the SCCs that we are familiar with were in use for static camo pre hostilities, would it be colours from this range that stations used in initial camo application ?? predating KG3 - dark tarmac etc ??????

TED-

Edited by ted angus
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Many thanks Ted. I did not notice the driver of the Duxford Crash Tender (above) was a civilian. In todays world he'd say "sod this for a game of soldiers" and jack in the job. So well done to him if he stayed on in the job ready to attend aircraft crashes of which there were a few at Duxford 1939-45!

 

However regarding the buffed up Bedford surely the MT Officer would have had a quiet word with the civi driver especially as circa 1941 the Luftwaffe were still doing intruder missions over Bomber Command airfields, so camo was still important. Also if the driver did a bit of 'oily ragging' then he did a very poor job on the door, which on the upper and right hand portions shows as matt. So poorly painted perhaps?

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Many thanks Ted. I did not notice the driver of the Duxford Crash Tender (above) was a civilian. In todays world he'd say "sod this for a game of soldiers" and jack in the job. So well done to him if he stayed on in the job ready to attend aircraft crashes of which there were a few at Duxford 1939-45!

 

However regarding the buffed up Bedford surely the MT Officer would have had a quiet word with the civi driver especially as circa 1941 the Luftwaffe were still doing intruder missions over Bomber Command airfields, so camo was still important. Also if the driver did a bit of 'oily ragging' then he did a very poor job on the door, which on the upper and right hand portions shows as matt. So poorly painted perhaps?

 

Yes i would say in this instance the camo was applied after a quick wash down, for gulf wars 1 & 2 at least we gave stuff a quick scour with schotchbright pad before blasing the pink or light stone on 1

TED

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Yes i would say in this instance the camo was applied after a quick wash down, for gulf wars 1 & 2 at least we gave stuff a quick scour with schotchbright pad before blasing the pink or light stone on 1

TED

 

I'll bet that wasn't universal; I can recall vehicles coming through sales post-GW1 that had obviously had lights, mirrors, glass, the works sprayed over, and clearly had barely seen a wash for prep, certainly no scotch or any other keying!

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On the subject of RAF camo in WW2 have you seen this kind of scheme before; one that I would say is influenced by jigsaw puzzles!

I guess it is a variation of the SCC.2 Brown with 'diagonal' camo of either dark brown or black. Its hard to tell but I think it may be a faded dark brown.

Commer Q2 mobile wireless van providing air to ground communications, 2 Sqn Sawbridgeworth.jpg

Edited by LarryH57
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As you will have guessed the location is RAF Sawbridgeworth and IMHO that early Mustang in flight dates this photo to 1942. I think it is just a crazy variation of an RAF applied camo over an SCC.2 base colour, especially as it is acknowledged that some RAF vehicles were delivered just in a base colour.

 

But if its SCC.2 Brown as a base colour, is that very dark brown or black camo in your opinion?

 

BTW - It did occur to me that the vehicle might be a British Army vehicle, but then again a Commer Q2 Radio Van wasn't common in the Army if ever used at all? Also the markings on the rear door of the Commer Q2 are I guess similar that painted on this Light Warning Radar truck, which you posted on HMVF some while back?

 

In itself your photo is interesting in that it says RAF on the rear door and B/26 on the side but the Army Reg has yet to be painted out!

Light Warning Set.jpg

Edited by LarryH57
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I'll bet that wasn't universal; I can recall vehicles coming through sales post-GW1 that had obviously had lights, mirrors, glass, the works sprayed over, and clearly had barely seen a wash for prep, certainly no scotch or any other keying!

Agree with the above comments regarding ex-Gulf war vehicles being a variety of colours loosely based around light sand to yellow even from the same unit. Little or no apparent attempt at uniformity of colour shade or areas painted/covered unit markings or position of them, certainly not on couple of hundred vehicles that passed through our workshop for rework prior to export.

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As you will have guessed the location is RAF Sawbridgeworth and IMHO that early Mustang in flight dates this photo to 1942. I think it is just a crazy variation of an RAF applied camo over an SCC.2 base colour, especially as it is acknowledged that some RAF vehicles were delivered just in a base colour.

 

But if its SCC.2 Brown as a base colour, is that very dark brown or black camo in your opinion?

 

BTW - It did occur to me that the vehicle might be a British Army vehicle, but then again a Commer Q2 Radio Van wasn't common in the Army if ever used at all? Also the markings on the rear door of the Commer Q2 are I guess similar that painted on this Light Warning Radar truck, which you posted on HMVF some while back?

 

In itself your photo is interesting in that it says RAF on the rear door and B/26 on the side but the Army Reg has yet to be painted out!

 

Truck (as it’s under 1-Ton and not a Lorry) Z.4658273 marked RAF above on the Chilwell list of November 44 allocation of Census Numbers Z.4658170 to Z.4658469 states

GUY – TRUCK 15-CWT 4x2 Lt. Warning

and

GUY – TRUCK 15-CWT 4x2 W/Less House Mk.III –

 

indicating the Army used GUY vehicles so did the Air Force draw on Army stock as indeed the Royal Marines did for their transport

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I've not been able to keep up with thread until now, although there isn't much to add to what Ted has already contributed.

 

With regards to the Duresco chart, it appears to be what few colours from their pre-war range they were able to make at that point: http://patrickbaty.co.uk/2011/11/07/duresco-king-of-water-paints/

There were a number of schemes being offered for civilians to have their own buidlings, cars etc. camouflaged (one was a very strange mix of rural on one side of the car and urban on the other).

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Does any of the above make it more likely that paint set aside to paint RAF Buildings in wartime, was used to paint vehicles, perhaps in that temporary Green & Brown seen on a few BoB era vehicles?

 

BTW - B/26 was the marking for the 26 (Signals) Group in Bomber Command. Fighter Command had 60 (Signals) Group so it would be interesting to find a photo of an RAF vehicle marked F/60.

 

As for the Commer Radio Van seen above connected with 2 Sqn at RAF Sawbridgeworth, I cannot find a Signals Group within Army Co-operation Command, so I wonder what marking it would have had and what Army Co-operation Command would have used; would it have been an A/ or ACC/ ?

 

So far I know of B for Bomber Command, F for Fighter Command , C for Coastal Command, M for Maintenance Command, and T for Training Command. What others were there in WW2?

Edited by LarryH57
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