RAF vehicle camouflage

[Rlangham]

I've seen this asked on another forum so thought I might give it a go here. In WW2, what colour would the emergency vehicle's at RAF bases (especially the fire tenders) be painted in? The Airfix kit of an Austin K6 fire tender says it should be in red, but the Fordson fire tender I saw the other day was a sort of olive drab, and i've seen models in RAF blue, can anyone help out?

[RAFMT]

Army Cooperation Command used A, which was also used by Airfield Construction after Army Coop ceased to be.

 

If I remember correctly (and I may be completely wrong here) the signals groups in Bomber and Fighter command had different roles, so i'm not sure if 60 group would have had a huge number of signals vehicles. Like I say, I'm going from memory and I'd need to double check to be sure.

 

As for the paints, i believe that there were orders at group level for camouflaging vehicles (building camouflaging was already underway) which is why it seems a mess in photos today, with some vehicles of the period camouflaged and others not. My working hypothesis is that those stations in the south and east were a priority for painting as they were the most vulnerable; however i have not had the chance to spend time at Kew and go through the papers there (oh for a week of leave to spend there!)

[LarryH57]

Thanks Bryan; any idea of the reference to search at NA Kew? I may take some time out to go.

 

Also Ted mentioned a Balloon Winch in SCC.2 Brown & Black disruptive camo, and here is one located in Kent at the time of the V1 attacks.

[ted angus]

Also Ted mentioned a Balloon Winch in SCC.2 Brown & Black disruptive camo, and here is one located in Kent at the time of the V1 attacks.

 

 

Larry remind me please ??

 

I don't think IWM colour shot is SCC 2. As its the pre MTP 46 pattern camo I think this is KG3 and dark Tarmac.

TED

Edited September 29, 2017 by ted angus

[LarryH57]

Ted, you may be right but as with these things the light or dark tone of the photo can change. Here is s slightly different version, which makes the G3 look browner. IMHO I was thinking that Black Camo was more common with SCC.2 Brown and also that Mickey Mouse (i.e. upper surfaces being dark) would not have suited an open wire mesh set up that's why they kept the mid war scheme in place. And what about the wheels are they G3?

Edited October 1, 2017 by LarryH57

[ted angus]

I played with the tones etc, the colour on the wheel hub covers is also on the tyres so is it dust- or maybe mud residue ?? There was an air diagram detailing application of camo and markings , so I don't think patterns would be optional- once a repaint was deemed necessary then current regs would normally be followed re colour pattern etc, WE need to turn the clock back or alternatively find the regs for the early years I wish I could spend a week in london my first search would be ORBs during the transition to war period, then I would look at the N series AMOs; the earliest ref I have to RAF MT camo is in an N series.

So how many colours in the attached ??

 

TED

Edited September 30, 2017 by ted angus

[LarryH57]

Ted, I live close enough to NA Kew so I may visit, so what would the AMOs be under; some kind of AIR/ reference? I'd be more than happy to share what I find with you.

 

And BTW - your photos of Ford Sussex vehicles, is that the one taken in NW Europe? I cannot work out if they have the same camo scheme as in the colour photo above

[ted angus]

Hi Larry, the pic is late 1944 near Antwerp when they were trying to stop the slaughter in Antwerp caused by V weapons. I will try and see if I can find any TNA refs but I think the A series has been exhausted - I reckon N series prior to june 1941 is a starting point and Station ORBs for July to Dec 1939. TED

[RAFMT]

Ted, I'm already ahead of you, slowly making my way through the AMOs, both A and N series but so far found nothing useful with regards to colours.

[ted angus]

Morning Bryan, , fingers crossed you find something : AMO N629 /41 dated 5 june 1941 stating Impressed vehicles to be camouflaged, but hire vehicles not to be; is my earliest . AMO A618 /41 dated 7 august 1941 my earliest - which details the use of KG3 etc. I rewatched a clip of the 1939 Aldergrove home movie last night and a bowser trailer and a Tilly type vehlcle were in a colour akin to KG 2 or the shade of SCC2. Good luck

TED

Edited October 2, 2017 by ted angus

[MatchFuzee]

Does this help?

 

http://www.wdnorton.nl/Colours.html

[LarryH57]

Bryan & Ted,

 

Many thanks for the above. Is it more likely then that the AMOs will be in the TNA rather than RAF Museum? There would have been orders locked away for the station Commanders to open on the declaration of war, so what happened to them. I would have thought they were comparable for each RAF station within Bomber Command or Fighter Command with a few local variations, concernbing the colours and camo schemes. Seeing as aircraft received camo during the Munich Crisis and dispersal plans were put in place for Sqn in the East of england to re-locate to the west, it amazes me that the RAF vehicles didn't get the cam treatment at the same time.

 

Ted may I have the link to that film taken at aldergrove?

[Morris C8]

I do have camouflage MTP 46 part 3 dated 1942 and 4A. dated 1941

Keith

[ted angus]

Firstly,

Larry here is a link to part of the film which can still be seen on the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26818893 they are in the first few seconds of the colour part. I am convinced cam of MT and other equipment would have been in the mobilisation orders, especially as the photographing evidence is now overwhelming. Not everything was in AMOs etc in the lead to gulf wars 1 & 2 our vehicle and GSE painting instructions were all contained in signals- the relevant APs were never amended to reflect and no higher level orders were published for open distribution ie DCIs etc.

 

Keith here attached is a scan of the original 1941 edition .

 

Matchfuzee , many thanks, Mike Starmer's work is great, but new stuff is regularly uncovered- he quotes RAF blue grey as formally being the RAF colour until AMO A618/41 was published, but with the unearthing of N629/41, the first mention found to date re RAF MT Camo can be advanced by 2 months .

 

TED

[Morris C8]

Thanks ted i have the original set of camouflage pamphlets. pages not in order number at top of page

[LarryH57]

Guys thanks for your contributions so far; I think we are making some progress but playing devils advocate, where is the proof that the War Office Pamphlets that have been attached were for the RAF?

 

I appreciate that if wartime manufacturers produced an order for a type of vehicle, that it would not have been practical to paint a few specially for the RAF if the majority were for the Army, so I can see the logic in the RAF following the War Office instructions, which is true once the war really got going. However its the period 1939-40 that is less certain and in need of some AMOs.

[ted angus]

Guys thanks for your contributions so far; I think we are making some progress but playing devils advocate, where is the proof that the War Office Pamphlets that have been attached were for the RAF?

 

There is none Larry but its all part of a jigsaw The date on the original edition MTP 46 cover I posted tells us SCC 2 was in by that time and running alongside KG3.

TED

[LarryH57]

Ted,  Its great to be back!

Anyway back to my question;  Was MTP46 actually for the RAF or is it the Army Camo instructions that we all assume were adopted by the RAF.  Well you suggest not, so where do I start if I was to go to the NA in Kew to find an AMO or similar that says "OK chaps, just follow the Army instructions" next time you paint a vehicle?

But then again if the RAF ordered a vehicle that was built on a line in a factory they would just have had to accept it in whatever colour it was in, so I might be looking for an order NOT to repaint vehicles? Obviously the above refers to wartime production and not the elusive AMO that requested RAF Blue be overpainted.

I live in NW London so I'd love to go digging in Kew but as a complete novice at TNA I'd need something to look for, reference wise.

Edited October 12, 2017 by LarryH57

[ted angus]

I will answer back to front, TNA not been there but you need the AIR files, they have an index on line search for mobilisation as my suggested starting point. 

Accept whatever was on the production line NO- Contracts were placed for the AM by the MoS , contracts specified spec qty. MoS instructed Contractors on current applicable schemes. 

colour etc  had to be specified because some of a contract might be for Middle east use whilst others for home / Europe use. 

 MTP 46 was a War Office publication. but we know from photo evidence we followed the Army lead, There is an Army poster re application of Camo plus correct positioning of markings, The RAF had a poster Air Diagram 1382 which defined camo schemes to be employed, but to date a copy has never been located.

 There might not have been an AMO instructing intro of camo, but it could have been a pre war secret letter that required its embodiment into unit/station war books / mobilisation procedures/orders - as I have stated previously For both GW 1 & 2 no DCI etc was issued  instructions came by confidential or restricted signals. -  Bryan Leggat is trawling the N series of AMO.  TED.

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by ted angus

[RAFMT]

Having exhausted A series (although i accept that i am only human and the possibility exists that I could have missed something)

There were pre-war orders in the SD series (secret document because the Air Ministry is so good at labels) that detail what to do on the outbreak of war but it's mostly organisational and higher level stuff. (also some interesting things like what to do in the event of unrest in Republic of Ireland amongst others). I can take a look through all of those as well when i get time.

Larry, the RAF Museum has an almost complete collection of AMOs in the A and N range (missing some very early stuff, the odd week in 1918 etc). It might be a case, as Ted says, of starting with a search on the TNA website for certain key words within the AIR series before you make your trip.

[79x100]

I may have posted this image on the forum before. It is from the Ministry of Supply ledgers relating to Norton Solo motorcycle contract C9681. In  a note dated 19/3/1941, it states 'Accept 20 motorcycles finished in RAF blue grey - delivery already effected - all future machines to be Khaki Green No.3 as WD spec MC 205.

The main ledger states : "Delivery has been effected at works on behalf of A Ministry"

This may suggest that the changeover was not always as clean cut as it should have been. Did Norton make a mistake or chance their luck to use up stock parts and paint, or bearing in mind that they seem to have been collected from the factory,  did someone somewhere in the AM or RAF decide that they would have a small number in blue grey, perhaps for use in London or similar ?

 

[ted angus]

Many thanks for this item, wether Norton chanced their luck, this is another valuable dated item. It predates the first A series AMO by 5 months. thanks again 

 

TED

[LarryH57]

79x100

Many thanks for posting.

Regarding the reference after Khaki Green No 3, does anyone know anything more about 'WD Specification MC205'?

Is there any mileage in researching it regarding RAF camo?

 

Edited October 16, 2017 by LarryH57

[ted angus]

Larry not a clue on that spec, it might be worth looking into  you never know what that might turn up  TED

[LarryH57]

Going back a few pages, can anyone suggest a colour match or description for the lime green used on Tony Corbin's Fordson Trucktor that he restored using previously covered colours as a guide?

[LarryH57]

The lime green on Tony's Fordson; was it an official colour or just something available when the vehicle was converted to a Trucktor in WW2?