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Saracen / RR B80 Fluids


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I figure at this point I might as well replace all the fluids since I'm having all sorts of joyful :??? problems.

 

So, can anybody tell me which fluids I need? :) I've read that OMD110 is required for the engine, and then I've also heard that non-detergent oil is better... I know people here have Saracens/Saladins so lets hear it please :)

 

Oils for:

Engine

Bevel Boxes

Fluid Flywheel

Transfer Box

Wheel Hubs

 

Any help is appreciated. I did check out DHMG, but it says you can use both Straight and also Multigrade. Then I've had people say use "Only straight 30 non detergent", and also people say "Use the cheapest 5w30" and also others say "Use only PAO based oils".

 

So.... which is it? :)

Thanks in advance

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There is much said about what oils you put in them, the original specification oil they were designed to use by Rolls Royce was OMD110 which was a straight 30 without detergent, the particulates going to the sump to be drained away at servicing.

As oil chemistry became more advanced with multigrades, the forces also moved with the times and they used 20/50 which i think equates to OMD80, this had detergents! not that they gave a hoot as this was the main engine oil purchased, everything that used OMD110 then went to OMD80.

 

Personally speaking, and im not saying that you must follow this!

I use the cheapest ASDA special 20w50 in the Humber Pig (RR B60), it meets the oil standards for its grade and probably exceeds old 30 Mono specs, i think it was a fiver a gallon last time i bought it, your vehicle probably wont be racking up the same mileages under the same stresses that the Army put on your Saracen.

It gets topped up using the same stuff, and drained annually, after the initial first flush/change, it comes out pretty clean, i very much doubt the oil has had a hard life, it comes out with the same viscosity as new.

I could go out and buy brand name 30W monograde and it would set me back considerably more money, and next year it will be drained into a bucket after little use.

Bearing in mind the conditions the vehicle is used, i.e predominantly Spring/Summer light use, low mileage with a bit of Off road work and light towing, i think it is more than suitable.

 

As for the rest of the lubrication, im not sure what it takes, Clive Elliot has done a piece on POL (Petrol Oil Lubricants) in Clives corner, which gives an explanation to the Military codes i.e OMD110 = 30w so just a matter of working out the civvy spec equivalent.

If you havent got some form of driver handbook or service manual, it is probably adviseable to get one, as you dont want to be pouring gear oil into something that should be using Hydraulic oil, which i know Saracens use.

 

Good luck!

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i think I am slowly heading into the same territory too,...for the gear oil, I have used the best ep90 money can buy and i am sure that is good...for the engine I am heading towards a 20/50 oil as likely being better than the sae 30 i keep forking out for...especailly as the stolly does less than 100 hours work a year..

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Well ideally mine would be doing more than 100hours per year due to driving to/from shows and such. But the 20w50 isnt a bad idea either, has anybody run it for a while in a B80?

 

Also, Adam, you said cheapest ASDA 20w50. Is that the same as the cheapest US based 20w50? Any idea on synthetics? Or does synthetic = too much detergent?

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Aha! forgot you are a colonial! ASDA = Wal-Mart, all probably sourced from the same place, i have no doubt the Wal-Mart version costs less !

The Rolls Royce B series engines were actually designed with oil burning in mind, i think my B60 engine consumes something like 1/4 to 1/2 pint (Imperial) every 100 miles according to the handbook, you could put synthetic in it, but it would be like giving a 30 year old malt whisky to a street bum alcoholic.

The detergents were put into oil to hold the particles in suspension, to be picked up by newer designs of oil filter, the big rough and ready cloth filter in the B engines is to catch big bits, the rest of the crud settles in the sump or comes out when drained.

Edited by Adam Elsdon
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There is much said about what oils you put in them, the original specification oil they were designed to use by Rolls Royce was OMD110 which was a straight 30 without detergent, the particulates going to the sump to be drained away at servicing.

As oil chemistry became more advanced with multigrades, the forces also moved with the times and they used 20/50 which i think equates to OMD80, this had detergents! not that they gave a hoot as this was the main engine oil purchased, everything that used OMD110 then went to OMD80.

 

Personally speaking, and im not saying that you must follow this!

I use the cheapest ASDA special 20w50 in the Humber Pig (RR B60), it meets the oil standards for its grade and probably exceeds old 30 Mono specs, i think it was a fiver a gallon last time i bought it, your vehicle probably wont be racking up the same mileages under the same stresses that the Army put on your Saracen.

It gets topped up using the same stuff, and drained annually, after the initial first flush/change, it comes out pretty clean, i very much doubt the oil has had a hard life, it comes out with the same viscosity as new.

I could go out and buy brand name 30W monograde and it would set me back considerably more money, and next year it will be drained into a bucket after little use.

Bearing in mind the conditions the vehicle is used, i.e predominantly Spring/Summer light use, low mileage with a bit of Off road work and light towing, i think it is more than suitable.

 

As for the rest of the lubrication, im not sure what it takes, Clive Elliot has done a piece on POL (Petrol Oil Lubricants) in Clives corner, which gives an explanation to the Military codes i.e OMD110 = 30w so just a matter of working out the civvy spec equivalent.

If you havent got some form of driver handbook or service manual, it is probably adviseable to get one, as you dont want to be pouring gear oil into something that should be using Hydraulic oil, which i know Saracens use.

 

Good luck!

 

 

Adam OMD means oil mineral detergent so 110 was/is a detergent oil

 

OMD 110 was a straight 30SAE for temperate climate, OMD 60 was for Artic and OMD 330 for tropical.

OMD 110 was replaced by OMD 75 which was a 10./30 multigrade and also had greater detergent properties this was the one that caused us havoc on the B series engines used in GPUs and wrecked many of the BMC 1800 staff cars. I think OMD 75 was replaced by OMD 80 another 10/30 but a much better article

 

TED

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Adam OMD means oil mineral detergent so 110 was/is a detergent oil

 

OMD 110 was a straight 30SAE for temperate climate, OMD 60 was for Artic and OMD 330 for tropical.

OMD 110 was replaced by OMD 75 which was a 10./30 multigrade and also had greater detergent properties this was the one that caused us havoc on the B series engines used in GPUs and wrecked many of the BMC 1800 staff cars. I think OMD 75 was replaced by OMD 80 another 10/30 but a much better article

 

TED

 

Do you think changing to higher detergent oils was the main problem, it seems that it would be lifting any build up of old deposits and pushing it through the journals etc, or was it to do with the speed that a B engine running a generator at near max chat eventually knocking out its bottom end due to lack of lubrication problems.

Makes you wonder why they moved away from buying in OMD110.

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Morning Adam, full chat sums it up, we calculated that running these GPUs with lots of aircraft systems functioning equated to a Mk6 fire truck being overloaded well beyond the 5 ton payload and running for 8 hours with foot to the floor.

 

Before we lost OMD110 we took pride in the servicability of the GPU fleet. Every month plugs and points were changed they could only take max load if they were finely tuned with excellent points and plugs.

We used to tune them on a resistive load bank to get the peak timing position. The twin points were bench set using a home made light and battery protracter gizmo The SU carbs on the B61 were balanced then initially set with a "colourtune" the colourtune was also used on the B81s Solex but I don't recall one ever being out of true. The B61 tuning was the most critical it was the air portable GPU and we were constantly deploying to the Gulf yes we have been there before many times in our history _ so they were really pushed beyond the limit . But as I said apart from the oil dilution sydrome they were really serviceable on 110 plus I don't recall changing the oil to 330 before deploying either to the gulf or Luqa or Akrotiri.

The cause ; the increased and obviously detrimental cleaning effect of the multi grade plus it just could not provide the lube accross the operating temp range that the engine ran at.

Moving away from 60 110 & 330 as crankcase oil was a cost cutting efficiency Ha Ha !!

 

You may wonder what an old retired fart is doing on his PC at this time

well Kitchen & Bathroom world of Dens Rd Dundee are putting in a new bathroom its a back to the joists and studs job nearly £600 of tiles guess what yesterday they completed the tiling but its the wrong tiles

 

At 08-00 I will be grabbing windpipes down the phone . !!

TTFN

TED the angry of Balmullo

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Thats some continuous load on an engine!

Well nothing really changes does it, i was out at Muharraq in Bahrain, next to the new building we were in was a motley load of tin huts, apparently what was left of RAF Muharraq years ago, and out on the pan a pair of Victors....leaking fuel everywhere!! progress my arse!!

 

At 08-00 I will be grabbing windpipes down the phone . !!

TTFN

TED the angry of Balmullo

:rofl::rofl:
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Sorry MWarrior for hijacking your thread! normal service will be resumed shortly!

 

Croc has a recently acquired the last AFS Bedford RL G.S. that was sold at Measham, some time ago, i am going up to his place tommorrow and see if we can get it running, its only done 1800 miles, its all taking up room!! i will mention trailers to him, he has a few!!

Did you get my PM about Matadors?

 

Now does anybody have good info about Saracen lubrication and what to put into them!! somebody must be able to help out here!! the usual suspects have probably gone over to Normandy.....

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  • 4 years later...

Resuming a discussion from 4 years ago....!

Can anyone tell me the best place to buy a B80 oil filter like this one;

 

b80 oil filter.JPG

It is the spiral wrapped felt blanket type. Is there only one type of this filter? Marcus Glenn didn't seem to be very sure.

 

Barry.

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I think there are two types of filter, manufactured by British Filters and Tecalemit. The filter you have is for the British Filters one, which Marcus has on his website MG322. You can also check which is which by the filter head, the BF type has a rounded shape, whilst the Tecalemit is more chunky.

Just found a pic of a British filter head unit.

bf1.JPG

hope this helps

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There are indeed two types of filters fitted to the Saracen; one of the manuals that I have at home details the differences and I'll try and remember to look it up tonight.

 

I have two of the spiral ones spare but, unfortunately, I'm keeping them for my beast for when it gets a full service. I have heard of people converting the Saracen to use a spin on type filter, but I can't find any details of how they have done it - that'd suit me down to the ground as while not as original, it's a hell of a lot less messy and much cheaper.

 

Cheers,

Terry

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From the Saracen Service Schedule:

 

[TABLE=class: grid, width: 800]

[TR]

[TD]Class[/TD]

[TD]Lubricant[/TD]

[TD]Equivalent[/TD]

[TD]Quantity (Total)[/TD]

[TD]Notes[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Oil[/TD]

[TD]OM 13[/TD]

[TD]ISO 10 hydraulic oil[/TD]

[TD]23.3 L[/TD]

[TD]Compatible with yellow metals[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Oil[/TD]

[TD]OX 8[/TD]

[TD]DOT4 brake fluid[/TD]

[TD]17 L[/TD]

[TD]Older vehicles only, check placard on hydraulic tank[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Oil[/TD]

[TD]OMD 75[/TD]

[TD]SAE 30 or SAE 10W30 motor oil[/TD]

[TD]31.8 L[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Oil[/TD]

[TD]OEP 220[/TD]

[TD]EP90 gear oil[/TD]

[TD]28.3 L[/TD]

[TD]Compatible with yellow metals[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Grease[/TD]

[TD]XG 279[/TD]

[TD]Chassis grease[/TD]

[TD]Misc.[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Protective[/TD]

[TD]PX 7[/TD]

[TD]Petroleum jelly[/TD]

[TD]Misc.[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Coolant[/TD]

[TD]Not specified[/TD]

[TD]Antifreeze[/TD]

[TD]34 L[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

 

[TABLE=class: grid, width: 800]

[TR]

[TD]Serial No[/TD]

[TD]Assembly[/TD]

[TD]Lubricant[/TD]

[TD]liters[/TD]

[TD]Pints[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]1[/TD]

[TD]Engine[/TD]

[TD]OMD 75[/TD]

[TD]16[/TD]

[TD]28[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]2[/TD]

[TD]Engine oil filter[/TD]

[TD]OMD 75[/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]

[TD]2[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]3[/TD]

[TD]Engine air cleaners (two)[/TD]

[TD]OMD 75[/TD]

[TD]1.5 (each)[/TD]

[TD]2.5 (each)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]4[/TD]

[TD]Mechanical tyre pump[/TD]

[TD]OMD 75[/TD]

[TD].3[/TD]

[TD].5[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]5[/TD]

[TD]Main gearbox[/TD]

[TD]OMD 75[/TD]

[TD]11.5[/TD]

[TD]20[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]6[/TD]

[TD]Transfer box[/TD]

[TD]OEP 220[/TD]

[TD]5.1[/TD]

[TD]9[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]7[/TD]

[TD]Hydraulic fluid supply tank (see page 3 para 1, sub para b, op 4c)[/TD]

[TD]OM 13 or OX 8[/TD]

[TD]17[/TD]

[TD]30[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]8[/TD]

[TD]Bevel boxes (six)[/TD]

[TD]OEP 220[/TD]

[TD]1.2 (each)[/TD]

[TD]2.25 (each)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]9[/TD]

[TD]Steering cross-shaft bevel box[/TD]

[TD]OEP 220[/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]

[TD]2[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]10[/TD]

[TD]Fluid coupling[/TD]

[TD]OM 13[/TD]

[TD]6.3[/TD]

[TD]11[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]11[/TD]

[TD]Hub reduction gear housings (six)[/TD]

[TD]OEP 220[/TD]

[TD]2.5 (each)[/TD]

[TD]4.5 (each)[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

Cheers,

Terry

Edited by Starfire
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Resuming a discussion from 4 years ago....!

Can anyone tell me the best place to buy a B80 oil filter like this one;

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]87516[/ATTACH]

It is the spiral wrapped felt blanket type. Is there only one type of this filter? Marcus Glenn didn't seem to be very sure.

 

Barry.

 

Looks very similar to the B60 filter on first impression!

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Although the filter size may be the same on military B60/B80 engines, those supplied for commercial use (like fire engines) had differing sizes.

 

filter diagram.JPG

 

I spoke today with Bannisters and they were very good, wanting to know if my filter had a flat sealing ring or the later 'O' ring type. I now have a filter winging it's way towards me.

 

I have been trying to revive a B80 which has not started until a couple of weeks ago for 8 years.

 

 

 

As you will see from the video there is a problem with the oil pressure. When it was last running oil pressure was good, so I suspected that there might have been a problem with the oil pressure relief valve.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]87569[/ATTACH]

 

When I took this apart it was particularly 'gunged up' so I hope that it is the solution to the low oil pressure. Has anyone had similar experiences?

 

2 plane strainer.JPG

 

One final question. My oil strainer not only pivots in the vertical direction (so that it can float on the oil surface) but it can also rotate through 90 degrees in the horizontal plane. Does anybody know why?

 

Barry.

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  • 8 months later...

Again, reviving an old thread.

 

I had to replace the filter in my Saracen a couple weeks ago and when it was all back together, the canister failed to seal correctly and I promptly lost about 10L of oil when I started it up. I thought that the seal was gone, but further investigation showed that the tips of the spiral had been pinched between the housing and the canister, the solution being to carefully fold them inwards before refitting the assembly.

 

Hopefully this information will help others avoid the problem.

 

Cheers,

Terry

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  • 1 year later...
From the Saracen Service Schedule:

 

[TABLE=class: grid, width: 800]

[TR]

[TD]Class[/TD]

[TD]Lubricant[/TD]

[TD]Equivalent[/TD]

[TD]Quantity (Total)[/TD]

[TD]Notes[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Oil[/TD]

[TD]OM 13[/TD]

[TD]ISO 10 hydraulic oil[/TD]

[TD]23.3 L[/TD]

[TD]Compatible with yellow metals[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Oil[/TD]

[TD]OX 8[/TD]

[TD]DOT4 brake fluid[/TD]

[TD]17 L[/TD]

[TD]Older vehicles only, check placard on hydraulic tank[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Oil[/TD]

[TD]OMD 75[/TD]

[TD]SAE 30 or SAE 10W30 motor oil[/TD]

[TD]31.8 L[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Oil[/TD]

[TD]OEP 220[/TD]

[TD]EP90 gear oil[/TD]

[TD]28.3 L[/TD]

[TD]Compatible with yellow metals[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Crease[/TD]

[TD]XG 279[/TD]

[TD]Chassis grease[/TD]

[TD]Misc.[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Protective[/TD]

[TD]PX 7[/TD]

[TD]Petroleum jelly[/TD]

[TD]Misc.[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Coolant[/TD]

[TD]Not specified[/TD]

[TD]Antifreeze[/TD]

[TD]34 L[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

 

[TABLE=class: grid, width: 800]

[TR]

[TD]Serial No[/TD]

[TD]Assembly[/TD]

[TD]Lubricant[/TD]

[TD]liters[/TD]

[TD]Pints[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]1[/TD]

[TD]Engine[/TD]

[TD]OMD 75[/TD]

[TD]16[/TD]

[TD]28[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]2[/TD]

[TD]Engine oil filter[/TD]

[TD]OMD 75[/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]

[TD]2[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]3[/TD]

[TD]Engine air cleaners (two)[/TD]

[TD]OMD 75[/TD]

[TD]1.5 (each)[/TD]

[TD]2.5 (each)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]4[/TD]

[TD]Mechanical tyre pump[/TD]

[TD]OMD 75[/TD]

[TD].3[/TD]

[TD].5[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]5[/TD]

[TD]Main gearbox[/TD]

[TD]OMD 75[/TD]

[TD]11.5[/TD]

[TD]20[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]6[/TD]

[TD]Transfer box[/TD]

[TD]OEP 220[/TD]

[TD]5.1[/TD]

[TD]9[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]7[/TD]

[TD]Hydraulic fluid supply tank (see page 3 para 1, sub para b, op 4c)[/TD]

[TD]OM 13 or OX 8[/TD]

[TD]17[/TD]

[TD]30[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]8[/TD]

[TD]Bevel boxes (six)[/TD]

[TD]OEP 220[/TD]

[TD]1.2 (each)[/TD]

[TD]2.25 (each)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]9[/TD]

[TD]Steering cross-shaft bevel box[/TD]

[TD]OEP 220[/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]

[TD]2[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]10[/TD]

[TD]Fluid coupling[/TD]

[TD]OM 13[/TD]

[TD]6.3[/TD]

[TD]11[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]11[/TD]

[TD]Hub reduction gear housings (six)[/TD]

[TD]OEP 220[/TD]

[TD]2.5 (each)[/TD]

[TD]4.5 (each)[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

Cheers,

Terry

I have been grappling with oil equivalence for OEP 220 specified for bevel boxes, etc. Most internet sites show this equates to EP90 gear oil, which usually shows up as 80W/90 gear oil in internet searches. I am trying to find the correct product to buy in USA and stumbled on an interesting paper on this topic. It is available here:

http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf

Apparently, in USA, almost all 80W/90 gear oil that is sold (Walmart, Pepboys, etc) is a GL-5 spec. This contains too much sulphur additives for yellow metals and it seems like the right oil for the Saracen must be GL-4 spec, which is the EP90 standard. Granville oil has a nice recap of the differences, and their EP90 gear oil specifically shows GL-4: http://www.granvilleoil.com/downloads/Which-Gear-Oil.pdf

Problem is, Granville seems to be a UK brand... so I am still searching for an EP90 gear oil -- again SAE 80W/90 oils are all GL-5!! I thought this might be useful to others, there are a lot of cobwebs on this topic!

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Problem is, Granville seems to be a UK brand... so I am still searching for an EP90 gear oil -- again SAE 80W/90 oils are all GL-5!! I thought this might be useful to others, there are a lot of cobwebs on this topic!

 

Success: here is a US-based petroleum supplier that stocks EP-90 gear oil with GL4 specification in various sizes. The prices seem reasonable too.

http://www.petroleumservicecompany.com/cui-ep-90-gl-4.html

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