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Electronic ignition, alternator conversions, tech issues


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Hi. Jack has kindly asked me to come on the forum and answer technical questions to the best of my ability, particularly regarding electronic ignition, alternator conversions and technical issues. I'll try to answer any technical questions as well as I can. I've been working on jeeps since 1971, including periods when (until recently) I have used my Willys MB as my everyday vehicle, and also as my company pickup truck. So reliability is what I know about - and the amazing thing about 60 odd-year-old jeeps is they ARE reliable if maintained well. Certain minor modifications help - this is where electronic ignition and alternator conversions come in. The same applies to any MV, although for practical reasons I wouldn't go to work every day in a GMC, for instance. But I am a firm believer that anyone who owns a jeep, or any MV or classic car for that matter, wants to ENJOY it. When the sun comes out in the summer, he wants to jump into his jeep and drive off somewhere, without the fiddling around to get it to start, and without worrying that he's going to break down while he's out.

I've read through the postings in the previous topic, and take on board the point about information and prices. So in due course I'll be posting photos and prices for all the common MV electronic ignition kits on the forum and on our website http://www.classicheads.com. I’m also looking at on-line ordering. For any sales or customer-support questions, please direct them to me as private messages, but for any questions of general interest, please post them on the forum.

Hope I can be of some help. Thanks for asking me, Jack, and best regards Frank Jolley Engineering

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Frank. Nice to have you on board here. I replied to this thread as I think that is what you want.

 

I've just got back from Malvern, hoping you were going to have a stall. But there are a lot of people out there I know who have B Series engines & are just wanting a little bit more info eg pictures (which are know you are going to do) or waiting for someone else to buy a kit to see how they get on!

 

In the normal B60 range of vehicles the ignition is reduced down to 12volts, but on start up the ballast resistors are shorted out to give it the full 24volts. How does your module cope with this arrangement? Does the ballast short out circuit have to be removed? I was considering sharing the ignition system between humbers, on the basis I can't drive three at the same time!

 

thanks

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Hi Clive. Thanks for the posting and the telephone conversation we had.

Yes, our electronic ignition system caters for the ballast resistor set up. Our module has two wires coming from it. The black wire connects to the negative terminal of the coil. The red wire connects to a 24v switched source. The attached circuit diagram shows this. In this way the module is seeing 24v irrespective of the coil voltage. You can leave the ballast resistor switching intact. Indeed, I am sure it would work as well without the switching circuit, as long as the ballast resistor is left in place. This is because the function of the ballast resistor switching system is to improve starting when points are used, but the electronic ignition gives greatly improved starting in any case. You MUST, however, leave the ballast resistor in place, whether or not it is switched out (by-passed) during starting. As far as the nitty-gritty of the wiring is concerned, the only complication is the trunking through which the low tension wire is fed. You either have to feed wires through it, or strap one or two wires externally to the cable. You kindly agreed to look at your vehicle and phone me to discuss it, so that I can post advice on this later in the week. There is certainly one wire already inside the trunking that can be used. It would be best if the 24v could be picked up at a position upstream of any filters or similar devices, so that any faults there will not affect the 24v supply to the module. As I say, more on this later.

The answer to your last question – yes – you can swap ignition systems between vehicles. The kits are easy to fit and remove. You would not have to reset the timing each time, if you did not move the distributor. If you took the distributor out, you would have reset the timing each time, but that is all. You can make crimp-type spade or bullet connections inside the distributor onto the module wires to facilitate quick disconnection and connection.

More later in the week. Thanks and best regards Frank Jolley.

 

B60B80WIRINGDIAGRAM.jpg

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Frank

 

Given that the printed instructions sent out with your B60 unit are completely different to the diagram you posted above am I to take it that the printed version is wrong, ie.

 

you do NOT connect the red wire to the coil, instead you connect it upstream of the ballast resistor.

(The black wire is connected to the coil as per the original instructions)

 

Therefore as your revised diagram now shows your unit is designed to operate at 24v all the time whereas the B60 ignition uses 12V once the ballast resistor is no longer bypassed by the ignition circuit.

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Frank

 

Apologies for my ignorance of electronics (never a strong point at school as witness when I once fused the entire physics lab!)

 

Your diagram shows tha black wire connected to the CB terminal on the coil yet your sensor unit is now running at 24v (revised wiring diagram) since it bypasses the ballast resistor. However, as we know, the coil will (except during actual ignition) be running at 12v. What will therefore happen if the coil has 24v on one side and 12v on the other?

 

How sure are you that the original coil is still correct for use?

 

I thought the circuit through the secondary winding of the coil is a continuous circuit with inpout via the SW terminal (ie from the ignition switch) and output to the CB terminal to the (orgiginal) breakers which casued the circuit to collapse therefby generating the pulse on the primary winding.

 

Seems odd that we now have 24 v on one side and 12 v on the other yet in the same circuit?

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John

 

I think the set up is analogous to say a relay that is activated by a 24 volt supply but is capable of switching a 24 volt or a 12 volt supply. It is just coincidence that the switched circuit is derived from the power that also powers the 'switch'.

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Frank

 

Your diagram shows tha black wire connected to the CB terminal on the coil yet your sensor unit is now running at 24v (revised wiring diagram) since it bypasses the ballast resistor. However, as we know, the coil will (except during actual ignition) be running at 12v. What will therefore happen if the coil has 24v on one side and 12v on the other?

 

 

Seems odd that we now have 24 v on one side and 12 v on the other yet in the same circuit?

 

If you apply Ohm's Law to the circuit, all becomes clear. The essential fact is that the ballast resistor only reduces the 24v supply to the coil during the period when the points are closed and current is actually flowing through the circuit:

+24v --> ballast resistor --> coil primary --> earth --> battery negative. With this current flowing, there is a (approximately) 12v drop across the resistor (which is dissipated as heat) leaving the other 12 to appear across the coil. When the points are open, no current flows, so no 12v drop across the ballast resistor, therefore the voltage measured at the coil + terminal rises to 24v.

 

This is easily shown by measuring at the coil + terminal with the points open and closed; however don't try and measure this point with the engine running because the rapidly switching voltage plus voltage spikes caused by the collapsing field in the coil (that its producing the HT spark) will fool most meters which will then give meaningless readings.

 

Andy

58 BE 88

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Here is Clive Elliott's answer to the question, “If I want to use the original coil and ballast resistor system on the B60 with electronic ignition, what is the best way to wire it?” Bear in mind that there are only two wires to consider, the black and the red. The black is catered for as there is a wire already going from coil to distributor, so the only question here is where to route the red wire (+24V). Clive has kindly inspected his vehicles for me and come up with his own answer:

 

I have been out doing a few pics for you, although I have three vehicles with B60s, it is amazing how memory fades a bit during the winter!

 

I was forgetting that the ignition filter is separate & between the ballast resistor box & the coil. I feel it would be a tremendous bore in terms of access & time to feed through a cable from the 24+ input of the ballast box & around the system to end up in the distributor. I think it is far easier to feed the 24+ from the ignition switch output lead "R" to your module in the distributor.

 

As these vehicles were intended for wading the ignition components are waterproofed, but are ventilated by circulation of air from the intake of the carburettor via two pipes in the distributor. Disconnection of the top air pipe would give a very convenient input for the 24+ feed for the module. A dark coloured wire joined to the "R" lead from the ignition switch is only a short distance where it could pass through a grommet pushed into the old ventilator hole to a connector to the module 24+ input. A purist could always use a screened cable from the distributor to ignition switch to make the conversion even more discrete.

 

I enclose a typical B60 ignition diagram, which I have cleaned up & cut out other circuitry. Also labelled pictures

 

My appetite is getting wetted to try it so please send me a unit then I could take some pics of it in situ.

 

Regards

 

Clive Elliott

 

Thanks Clive.

 

The next question, however, is “Do I RECOMMEND using the existing coil and ballast resistor?” This is a different question. I always recommend the solution that gives the best ignition performance and reliability. The answer to that is to get one of our high-performance 12v coils with a matched ballast resistor from us and hide it away somewhere, then simply run two wires from it to the distributor using the diagram previously posted. The ballast resistor stays in circuit all the time. You by-pass all the ancient and potentially troublesome wiring, filters etc. I do understand, however, that this solution is not for the purists, and Clive’s solution will work fine as long as the coil is in good order. Here we come to the tricky bit. The problem with using the existing coil is that it is probably old. No problem if it is new. However from an ignition performance point of view, old coils are bad news. You may like the idea of running with an old original coil, but bear in mind that it is almost certainly giving reduced performance, and at worst will let you down, even after you have spent good money on electronic ignition. My rule of thumb on any vehicle is to retain the old coil ONLY if the coil is near new or known good, AND you know that it is the correct type for the original application. If either of these criteria are not met, then I recommend replacing the coil.

I hear the question, “How can you recommend using the high-performance coil with a ballast resistor, but not switching it in and out?” The switched ballast resistor is common on old cars from the 60’s onwards. It is NOT unique to the B60/B80 engine. We do electronic ignition for literally thousands of vehicles, and switched ballast resistors are common. Most are on 12v systems and switch down to either 6v or 9v for normal running, whereas the B60/B80 switches between 24v and 12v. You have to look at why it is there. The idea is to improve starting. However this is more of a problem with points than with electronic ignition. Fitting electronic ignition will itself greatly improve starting, so in many cases switching the ballast resistor out for starting is not necessary. However a word of caution here – do not keep the original coil and remove the ballast resistor entirely, as you are liable to cook the coil – you’ll be running permanently with 24v across a 12v coil, or 12v across a 6v coil, or whatever the vehicle in question uses. With 12v cars you can get rid of the coil and ballast resistor and simply fit a 12v coil of the correct resistance for the application, but of course this is not as easy with something like a B60 because 24v coils are not so readily available. Even if you could get one you would have to make sure that it is compatible in the application. Hence our recommendation to get a high-performance coil from us with matched ballast resistor so that you know you have got something compatible.

So to sum up, if you are a purist, use Clive’s solution, but expect less than perfect performance if the coil and other parts are old. If you are not a purist and want to get the best reliability and performance from your new electronic ignition system, get one of our high-performance coils with matched ballast resistor, hide it somewhere and feed two wires as discreetly as you can to the distributor.

I will be posting photos of a distributor with kit fitted shortly.

Best regards to all FrankB60ign.jpg[/img]

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  • 3 weeks later...

I was contemplating forking out last year for this system, but the obstacle for me was not being able to see what I was getting. So I hope the following description of fitting it to a Humber Pig may be of help to others trying to decide.

 

Over the last 20 years I have used a number of electronic ignition systems commercial & homemade. I built a 24v system for a Lightweight Land Rover. I spent an awful lot of time pratting around & experimenting. Those days are over I do not have the time or the energy to mess around. The fear of breaking down in a slow moving & heavy vehicle on the motorway is something I have experienced too many times.

 

The Jolley system is I think the answer for me in improving engine efficiency & reliability. Now that I have got my hands on the thing & can appreciate the work that has gone into it.

 

Jolley01a.jpg

 

This is the base plate that replaces the B60 base plate with the points. It has been made to high precision as it fits in very snuggly & permits the distributor to locate precisely. Once the old base plate is removed the weights can be checked & greased if dry.

 

Jolley02a.jpg

 

The Jolley plate pushes in & is retained with the two original bolts & the condenser removed as it is no longer need.

 

Jolley04a.jpg

 

I fiited a crimp connector to the black lead & bolted it to the lead coming in from the coil. I wanted to retain the original terminal just in case I ever wanted to revert back to the old points, just in case of module failure. I had already threaded the wire through a couple of rubber sleaves that were then pulled over the connection to insulate it. The plastic collar with the magnets was now pushed over the distributor shaft. It was a reassuringly precise firm fit.

 

Jolley05a.jpg

The red 24+ ignition feed needs to come from the "R" lead from behind the ignition switch. I utilised the ventilation tube from the distributor where it is connected into the part that contained the condenser. First remove this tube from the distrubutor & the engine. There are two tubes that are mounted behind the top of the rear of the engine & they are not easy to undo. What I did was to slide a ring spanner from the undone end by the distributor, the get the ring spanner to engage the tube termination by the engine block. There will be enough turn to keep re-engaginging the ring to undo it. But there is not enough swing or access to use an open ended spanner. Having got this flexy tube off, feed the red wire through. Then make a small hole in the thin metal sheet into the cab & off to connection into lead "R". The red lead is not itself long enough so I just crimped on the piece of wire I cut off the black lead.

 

Jolley06a.jpg

So it is hard to see that this has been modified & everything to casual eye looks original.

 

I found it rather depressing that on turning the engine over it didn't fire at all. I sat at midnight in the cold wondering why I had bought a thing that didn't work. After a few minutes it dawned on me that I had left the rotar arm off :oops: With this in place, when I turned it over it sprang it life like I have never heard it before with smooth & sustained power. Setting the timing by turning the distributor optimised this but even when set at totally the wrong setting there was still smooth running, with the old points on this timing it would be running erratically.

 

Not done a road test but initial results look encouraging.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Road test today. Starts really easily, purrs nicely, went on run up some challenging hills. Normally these hills pig does a bit over 20 mph, but was doing 30 mph. NO black exhaust fumes now, exhaust invisible but hard reving just hint of grey smoke.

 

Now this is in a pig that has been well maintained, on a run it would do 9mpg which is text book for a Mk 1 Pig. So I assume it is was optimised for the original equipment. It would be interesting to see what it does on a run. But even so the benefits of improved reliability, smoother running, more power & no black smoke. It seems to have been a very worthwhile improvement & is to be recommended in my view.

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I have fitted the Jolley to the Hornet & has improved it significantly. Now the Hornet only went out once last year. Going to the Great Dorset Steam Fair it conked out several times on the way, a couple of roadside repairs & work at the show. Including new distributor cap, condenser & plugs, perked it up. But some damage was done some nasty backfires seemed to precipitate a split silencer & a cracked exhaust manifiold.

 

Anyway new silencer & new manifold, runs okish but very smokey. Fitted Jolley & smoother with 90% reduction in smoke. So hopefully this should get me to the Para Sqn RAC 30 years since disbandment reunion at Bovington Camp next weekend.

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  • 3 months later...

Although the pig has had engine problems this year it has mainly revolved around getting a new head gasket back on & sorting out defective distributor caps & leads.

 

The electronic ignition continues to impress, with smoother & quieter running, more power & very little smoke. Plugs on the engine used to soot up very quickly, but look at this:

 

width=316 height=366http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v684/fv1620/Sparkplug01.jpg[/img]

 

I have not cleaned this plug, it is literally as removed from the engine after 200 miles!

 

(I hope this doesn't sound like a commercial, I have no vested interest in the company that supplied the kit. It is just that I was very hesitant initially in forking out for the kit, but now wish I had done so earlier)

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  • 3 years later...

I've just ordered one of the Classicheads electronic ignition units for my Jeep following the old Hotchkiss distributor throwing a wobbler again with an 18 month old condenser. I've noticed power loss for a while and sooty plugs, despite doing all the usual stuff, and occasional missing which got dramatically worse over the weekend to the point where I only just got home. I'm only a few miles away from clocking 10,000 in the five years I've had the Jeep, so since I do so much driving, decided it was about time to splash out on the electronic kit so the next 10,000 can be free of ignition worries!

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OK Frank, for my two pence worth. I fitted one your gadgets to My Dodge about four or so years ago. You DIDN'T tell me it would take twice the time to fit if I dropped the *&&%^$%£ screw that holds the plate down! :banghead: So took twenty minutes.She started up immidatley afterwards, and she has done a lot of millage since with no problem. Must talk to you about a 6 volt WC54 one.

 

The real beauty is you don't know it's there! No basty add on boxes in bright plastic. :shocked:

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I'll second the request for a 6volt kit for the WC54 could solve a lot of problems starting!

 

More the quality and consitency of the spark that a Frank gadget gives. The other joy is 99% of conventional ignited engine problems are electrical. I was taliking to an old timer AA man the other week. He said since electronic ignition the main call outs are punctures and wrong fuel put in!

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On Tony's advice I bought & fitted a classichead kit to the WC 54 & it cured the starting problems straight away . Unfortunately the starter itself has now ceased to function so I'm not a lot better off but I live in hope !

Large hammer? :-D Must get electronic ignition for Katy then. The starter motor itself is a beefy bit of kit, should be rebuildable. Check the gaps on the top push switch, they wear and cause problems. Gordon M is the one to ask for advice.

 

also 'Ask the experts' If you were to fit a 12 volt generator, would you neeed to change the regulator box, or could it be adjusted? And would a six volt starter stand twelve volt? I've jumped of twelve volt , when nothing else was available.

Edited by Tony B
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