Recovery and Towing

[Tony B]

There should alwys be one round of rope on the drum. I've painted the last twelve feet to make sure. Also what most don't realise is that teh pull of the whinch decreases as the cable goes on. Alters the torque as the drum effectivley becomes wider. On a capstan this of course dosen't happen.

[croc]

Yes Croc, please do start on KINETIC ROPES!

 

I recently got hold of some large ones (W+P) for use as general tow ropes. Now I'm not one for snatch towing - dangerous and liable to break something.

 

Am I right in thinking these ropes are specifically for snatch recovery, where the energy of momentum is transferred from the 'vehicle accelerating rapidly away' to the stationary stuck one, but in a less agressive way than a rope or chain?

 

Are they suitable to use for general towing, or are they too bungee-like?

 

I don't seem to need to say much more as it has all been said. For towing I would always prefer to use a pole or A-bar. For recovery if something is so badly stuck it would need a snatch or KERR it is far safer to winch it.

[Tony B]

That's that then! Winch as first option, towing only as last resort. Aside from powered winches, the Turfor is a very useful tool any one any thoughts on those?

Edited August 19, 2008 by Tony B

[Shakey985]

There is nothing like a bit of rope and a thew truckies knots or twisting it like a rubber band it just takes time. Fence strainers and some ones fence also works. For armoured vehicles , 2 pieces of chain and a length of wood of a suitable size works by securing the wood to your tracks and then dragging the wood under the vehicle. The vehicle ether drags the wood threw the mud and you stay there or the wood stays where it is and you drive on top. Off course the wood could break, see suitable size.

[Tony B]

I've always known that technique as a 'Spanish Windlass'

[N.O.S.]

Aside from powered winches, the Turfor is a very useful tool any one any thoughts on those?

Very versatile hoisting and winching tool, wouldn't be without one. And if time is not pressing, there's always the Trewhella Monkey Winch but we've been there before on here!

 

Yes Croc, that sums up KERR nicely.

[gritineye]

Some times the simple old ways are the best.

 

We've all seen it, someone gets stuck, someone else backs in to drag them out and gets stuck as well, lots of snatching and pulling until both are stuck beyond hope, and it's getting dark. This can go on until 3 or more vehicles are stuck, then along comes the old country sort with his old jalopy, backs up to the lead vehicle at a 45 degree angle and hooks up.

 

Spin 'em all up he says and proceeds to pull the lot out in one go, seemingly with no effort! What he has done is to pull the first one off to one side out of the ruts and onto better ground, before the next one starts to move. So then as the slack is taken up there are two doing the pulling and so on and so on.

 

Then he leads every one off down the pub, you know the rest :-D

 

I was told this trick by an old tractor driver many years ago, it still works.

[Markheliops]

Hi all.

 

Just read this entire thread and it is very interesting on the differing views in relation to winching, etc.

 

So, here are my views on the subject.

 

I was a recy mech class II and have been trained by the IVR (Institute of Vehicle Recovery) in recovery techniques for heavy commercial vehicles and buses and coaches. I worked on the M20 for four years on the Police Recovery Scheme, righting over-turned and jack-knifed 40 tonne artics. Also attended many RTC (Road Traffic Collisions) - the point being I have some experience in this field.

 

Back to my point in relation to safe winching etc.

 

I am not going to sit here and list the safety matters and considerations when winching as these points and much more good advice has already been listed.

 

However, I would like to point out a couple of things in relation to this subject.

 

Winching and indeed any recovery task can be dangerous - I defy anyone to say differently. I do feel people who have not had some degree of training should not be attempting to move a bogged down vehicle.

 

By bogged down, I mean to its axles - not slipping on wet grass.

 

The process starts before the recovery vehicle even moves to the recovery scene. Please remember all the equipment on a recovery vehicle should have been visually and mechanically tested on a frequent basis. By frequent, I mean every time the equipment is used. This should be done by a competent person, meaning someone who knows what the hell he or she is looking at. Annual testing (LOLAR REGS) of all equipment is also required under health and safety law.

 

When the recovery vehicle and its crew arrive at the scene they have to consider a host of variables. Where do you park the recovery vehicle, etc? With this consideration comes working out a viable and workable recovery plan. Once this has been done there are things to do to the casualty vehicle and to the recovery vehicle.

 

Whilst the recovery operation is going on, the vicinity should be cordoned off to stop anyone wondering in case something goes wrong.

 

My point is this - anyone who thinks they can just hook a winch onto a stricken vehicle and pull it is very much mistaken. There are endless possibilities for things to go wrong.

 

No one has mentioned - I don’t think - about attachment points and where to attach the winch rope. I have seen people attaching winch ropes to the rear hoops of a Land Rover Series 3 - I kid you not.

 

Anyway, we are all adults and we will do what we do. This is great - until someone gets hurt and health and safety or worse the Police start poking around.

 

By all means - attach a rope or winch to pull your mate up a slippery hill to help him or her out - but leave the serious winching jobs to people who have been trained in both recovery techniques and in the operation of the particular equipment being employed to carry out the task.

 

Markheliops

[gritineye]

Rust?

 

Or maybe the bottom of something 70% proof? If a wet rope slips on a capstan you can get steam.

 

Of course it could just have been the red painted section of rope to warn you to stop paying out, last few turns on the drum :-D

 

That's sorted that one out then chaps, that old saying comes to mind as well,

 

Red sky at night, winch rope's alight!

 

:-D

[Marmite!!]

Hi all.

 

Just read this entire thread and it is very interesting on the differing views in relation to winching, etc...............................................................

 

 

 

..................By all means - attach a rope or winch to pull your mate up a slippery hill to help him or her out - but leave the serious winching jobs to people who have been trained in both recovery techniques and in the operation of the particular equipment being employed to carry out the task.

 

Markheliops

 

Excellent post & advice Mark :tup::

[gritineye]

Wise words from one who knows Mark, safety first.

[croc]

Totaly agree with Marks' post.

 

Winching and indeed any recovery task can be dangerous - I defy anyone to say differently. I do feel people who have not had some degree of training should not be attempting to move a bogged down vehicle.

 

 

This is kind of the main point, by planning it properly and rigging it correctly the aim is to make the process as safe as possible.

If you don't think the job is safe, what is it that makes it unsafe and what can be done to reduce the risk to an acceptable level?

[N.O.S.]

Well done Mark! Good sound advice.

 

Given that not many of us are going to sign up for a 5 day industry course on how to winch safely - which, if you were working for a major company, you would probably have to do in order to get a proficiency certificate (as an example google All Terrain Training Ltd and look at forestry winching courses) -

 

here are a couple of really useful downloadable guides to the subject:

 

1) HSE Guide to Debogging and Recovery of Forestry Machines

www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/afag703.pdf

 

2) Forestry Commision Tech Guide FCTG001 Winching Operations in Forestry - tree takedown & vehicle debogging

www.forestresearch.gov.uk/pdf/fctg001.pdf/$FILE/fctg001.pdf

 

Both these include excellent sections on how to plan the job and select tackle, and are well worth a read - far from scaring anyone off, I think they will inspire confidence by providing a lot more understanding. They are the best written and most practical HSE documents I've seen for a long time, a lot of care must have gone into producing them.

 

Another point worth clarifyng - it has been stated that a Matador winch is rated at 7T and the Breaking Strain of the rope is 18T, the Explorer is a 12T winch with 22T Breaking Strain rope.

 

Winch ropes for industrial applications (e.g. forestry work, mobile cranes, excavators) are selected on SWL (Safe Working Load), which is determined by applying a safety factor. For winch and mobile plant applicatons this might typically be 5-1.

 

So a rope having a breaking strain of 18 tonnes might have a SWL of only 3.6 tonnes. (18 divided by 5), the SWL of the 22 tonnes breaking strain rope would be 4.4 tonnes. This presumably applies to situations where Health and Safety legislation is enforcable.

 

Note that breaking strain is a design figure - the rope will not necssarily fail at exactly this point - the failure load coud be lower....

 

Talk to your local wire rope supplier for proper advice - the usual Blue Peter disclaimers apply to my scribblings.

 

I replace my MV winch ropes with the original spec (or higher spec if one is available), the cost is not horrific and I know they can be relied upon.

Edited August 20, 2008 by N.O.S.

[Richard Farrant]

Another point worth clarifyng - it has been stated that a Matador winch is rated at 7T and the Breaking Strain of the rope is 18T, the Explorer is a 12T winch with 22T Breaking Strain rope.

 

Winch ropes for industrial applications (e.g. forestry work, mobile cranes, excavators) are selected on SWL (Safe Working Load), which is determined by applying a safety factor. For winch and mobile plant applicatons this might typically be 5-1.

 

 

 

Hi Tony,

 

Good info once again :thumbsup:

 

Just to add a bit from my experience, from previous employment with Army, carrying out repairs and annual load tests of winches and cranes. The safety factor of winch ropes was 2:1, where as lifting equipment it is 5:1.

 

Despite thoroughly inspecting ropes before functional testing winch to check and adjust the cut outs, it was not unknown for ropes to fail. This could be due to stress on a previous use, which will not be visible to the eye, and breakage could occur at well under the working load limit.

 

Once, before I took on the testing, I saw where an AEC 10 tonner cargo undergoing a cut out test, had broken a rope at the vehicle end, the rope had launched back to the anchor point and was hanging in a nearby tree, placing a blanket on the rope would have been of no use at all.

Edited August 20, 2008 by Richard Farrant

[N.O.S.]

,

 

......carrying out repairs and annual load tests of winches and cranes. The safety factor of winch ropes was 2:1......

 

Richard, that makes more sense for the two winch examples quoted earlier. I wonder what safety factor is used today? Also, the level of Safety Factor would have a bearing on frequency of routine testing.

 

My rope supplier currently recommends a SF of 4-1 for recovery winch ropes, but this is for a winch which is in constant commercial use, and might not necessarily be appropriate for 'occasional use' winches like those on army cargo trucks.

 

A passenger hoist rope might have a SF of 12 - not appropriate here other than to illustrate the importance placed on safety when wire rope is involved.

 

To replace your rope or not?

 

I restored my Constructor with a view to using it for occasional winching. The rope looked awful, but after I'd pulled off about 100 feet of the 450 feet total, it looked like brand new! So I decided to shorten it.

 

Only when I later pulled it right off in order to clean and paint the winch drum did I discover that the inner 150 feet or so had deteriorated very badly through ingress of moisture from the inside of the horizontal winch drum. It was absolutely rotten :shake: I could have been caught out.

[Poptopshed]

Its also worth having a read of the REME Recovery manual. Host by Militant Graham. Aslo has other interesting downloads. :tup::

 

http://www.aecmilitant.co.uk/downloads/recoverymanual.pdf

 

Jon.

[TooTallMike]

A passenger hoist rope might have a SF of 12 - not appropriate here other than to illustrate the importance placed on safety when wire rope is involved.

Just out of interest: I'm a Project Manager in entertainment industry automation and our core business is flying people and scenery in theatres, opera houses, cruise ships, stadia, flim, TV, concerts etc. using winches with steel wire rope of various sizes. http://www.stagetech.com/machinery/bigtowwinches.asp

For various sorts of lifting equipment we use a SF of either 8 or 10. For performer flying we need to use the smallest diameter rope possible to minimise its visual impact so the SF is very important. Fortunately most aerial performers are tiny so we can usually achieve SF 10 on 2 lines with 3mm SWR. These are our main SWR suppliers & you can see the various safety factors listed here: http://www.ropeassemblies.co.uk/catalogue.php?id2=110&id=81

 

- Mike

[Tony B]

Now we know why he's so popular. Don't need to do H&S ladder assesment with Mike about. :-D Also explains the 432 Areil Display Team!

[antarmike]

Just aquick point. when I stated a breaking strain for the Matadoe winch, I was quoting the figure provided by British Ropes, when I bought the cable new. It is the proof load to which the cable had been tested, The Ultimate Tensile Stregth is higher than the proof load, so the rope is more than likely stronger than than the figure I quoted, And yes I know that is for the rope is pristine condition. but it is generally accepted that you can have up to three broken wires in a 6x19 cable without significantly lowering it's strength.

[AlienFTM]

Also was the 432 a British version of M113 American APC or a complete new design?

 

Since nobody else appears to answered this over the course of the ten pages I have speed-read (my apologies if I am wrong) ...

 

FV432 (British) is an entirely different beast from the M113 (American). They were just designed about the same time to do the same job and came up with similar products.

[Markheliops]

Since nobody else appears to answered this over the course of the ten pages I have speed-read (my apologies if I am wrong) ...

 

 

 

Hey - I thought this thread was about Recovery and Towing.

 

AlienFTM - stop going off thread!!! LOL.

[Runflat]

Enjoy!

 

 

[abn deuce]

a good news bad news kind of thing , Good news your cable is long enough to reach an anchor point , Bad news the anchor decides to come to you !

[Runflat]

I'm not sure this is standard practice!:

 

 

[gritineye]

I could smell those old asbestos clutch / brake bands burning from here!