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Ferret fluid flywheel seal


polecat paul

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Has anyone changed one of these if so any pointers as i have got to do mine :D

 

Paul,

 

I would like a fiver for every one I've changed.

 

What do you want to know? The gearbox has to come out, at least pulled forward enough for access. Assume you have the relevant EMER's? The correct seal is difficult to get hold of now, due to shape to accomodate the special washer that stops the lip from deforming. May be able to find one for you. You are certain it is the seal leaking and not one of the plugs or around the flange joint? Seal should be pressed in and not hammered in as this is sure to mishap the seal and then leak. Oil is a very thin hydraulic fluid, Army designation is OM13, this means nothing in civvy street, so you need to ask for ISO10 grade. Morris Lubricants at Shrewsbury make it. I always pressure test after overhaul and filling to check for leaks. On rare occasions, cracks have been found in the outer cover.

 

Just noticed yours is a Mk1/2, if you wanted the gearbox right out for any reason, like cleaning, repainting, etc.. The "turret" would have to be unbolted from the hull.

 

Richard

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I have only done it once and made a few mistakes so I will explain and hope you don't make the same errors.

Firstly, no matter what the EMER says, there is no need to remove turret and crane out the gearbox: as it says above, you can pull it far enough forwards to get access if you remove the drivers seat.

Don't try to work inside the hull: pop both doors off and kneel outside, leaning in, much easier.

When moving the gearbox, dont forget you need to release both the gearchange and the transfer box linkages. One is hidden under the gearbox so dont forget it.

Do pressure test after assembly. Pump it up to about 15/20 pounds per square inch and go everwhere with a paintbrush loaded with soap suds, looking for bubbles. This is better than filling it with oil and looking for oil leaks: less messy as well if there is a problem and you have to dismantle again.

Dont worry if you cant get a paper gasket for the two halves: RTV instant gasket is better anyway.

Be prepared to butcher a couple of spanners to reach some of the bell housing lower bolts, they are a real pig to get to.

When replacing the propshafts, make sure you have the filler plugs in the hubs lined up front and back or you will forever be being told you have windup. You will probably need to jack up the second wheel on each side to get the flanges to line up, even if the vehicle hasn't moved. (No idea why)

Lastly you have a sort of chicken and egg situation: did the seal wear/go hard and that caused the big leak or did the flywheel get hot due to low oil and that hardened the rubber? Once you have finished, you can check the oil level before every use: put handbrake on, engage 3rd gear and give it full throttle for 3 or 4 seconds, absolute maximum. If revs go over 800 then either flywheel is low on oil or brake band on 3rd is slipping. If you suspect the latter then 'pedal up' a dozen times and or try 4th gear. If revs still go above 800 then get the spanners out and fill up with OM13 which will save the flywheel getting hot in the first place and making a tiny seep you can live with into a great gush that needs repair.

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Here in the US some Ferret owners have very successfully replaced their fluid coupling seal with a double lip seal from John Deere. The seals were installed without pulling things out, just moving enough to have access to the seal. The seal materials are far better today then they were when the seal was first specified "way back when", and one would believe the "new" seal should last longer, and perhaps survive some abuse as well.

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  • 2 months later...

Right at last i,ve started on the Ferret so far i have got as far as taking out the fluid fly wheel and i have to find a replacement seal now is there any thing else i should know before i refit and also how do you pressure test it ? before filling up with oil any pointers please as i only want to do this once cause that gearbox is one heavy thing to pull forward :oops:

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  • 4 years later...

Yes,

 

Wondering as well how that John Deere seal worked out? Has any one here compare one to an original? Should I risk installing one in my Ferret, or go with an original... decisions, decisions...

Edited by mkVsten
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  • 2 weeks later...

Strange you should mention Saracen...

 

I know that mine needs a new seal, it weeps so I get by with a regular top up, however it does need fixing and I'm building up courage and reserves of patience to do it. However 1st things first, I'm laying a concrete pad so there is a better work area for the Saracen to sit on over the winter while it is seriously off road.

 

Question, "Why do you want 9 cubic metres of concrete ?"

 

Answer "Because my flywheel has a leak!"

 

And what makes this post relevant to Ferrets? I bought the Ferret that was on sale at War and Peace! So far its a fantastic little thing (compared to a Saracen) and just right for nipping down to the shops. What with the engine in the rear, its all A*s* about face, but at least the forward reverse lever goes in the right direction.

 

Lots of sanding and painting, but apart from a bit of surface rust, excellent!

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Strange you should mention Saracen...

 

I know that mine needs a new seal, it weeps so I get by with a regular top up, however it does need fixing and I'm building up courage and reserves of patience to do it. However 1st things first, I'm laying a concrete pad so there is a better work area for the Saracen to sit on over the winter while it is seriously off road.

 

Question, "Why do you want 9 cubic metres of concrete ?"

 

Answer "Because my flywheel has a leak!"

 

And what makes this post relevant to Ferrets? I bought the Ferret that was on sale at War and Peace! So far its a fantastic little thing (compared to a Saracen) and just right for nipping down to the shops. What with the engine in the rear, its all A*s* about face, but at least the forward reverse lever goes in the right direction.

 

Lots of sanding and painting, but apart from a bit of surface rust, excellent!

 

I know what you mean about the fwd/rev lever, very confusing going from saracen to ferret or vice versa. With your oil leak, do you get an oil mist when the engine is warm? I ask because thats what my saracen is doing and looks like a flywheel leak.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

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Hi Paul

 

No mist when running or starting, but the oil (fluid) level goes down by about 1 litre for a decent trip that warms up the engine. That could be 5 to 15 miles. I think that the leak or loss of fluid occurs when the flywheel is stationary, otherwise I'm guessing that the rotation keeps the fluid away from the seal area. (Hopefully Richard will clarify).

 

But, my understanding is that an oily mist invariably means flywheel seal!

 

Simon

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Yes Simon, I think you are right, flywheel it probably is.

 

Have you measured the oil level before and after a trip. If it is losing a litre on a short trip like that then I think it is too much to put up with. Still, it is a big job though...........................

 

Paul

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No mist when running or starting, but the oil (fluid) level goes down by about 1 litre for a decent trip that warms up the engine. That could be 5 to 15 miles. I think that the leak or loss of fluid occurs when the flywheel is stationary, otherwise I'm guessing that the rotation keeps the fluid away from the seal area. (Hopefully Richard will clarify).

 

But, my understanding is that an oily mist invariably means flywheel seal!

 

 

Hi Simon,

 

The other common source of leaking is the filler plugs, two of them, they need the correct sealing washers, and in good condition.

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Hi Richard

 

Thanks for the comment, in this case I'm sure it is seal as I replaced both filler plug seals. Actually following your earlier advice (about a year ago) and bought them from Banister's along with the tool.

 

I really wish it were those seals!

 

I suppose that leads me on to the next question, as I'm anyway going to have to equip myself with suitable crane (my engine hoist will lift two tonnes but its in the garage, where the saracen won't fit, my old collapsible engine crane is too small) is it simpler to work from inside shifting the gearbox or outside shifting the engine?

 

Or maybe there is a magic spray or additive?

 

best wishes

 

Simon

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I suppose that leads me on to the next question, as I'm anyway going to have to equip myself with suitable crane (my engine hoist will lift two tonnes but its in the garage, where the saracen won't fit, my old collapsible engine crane is too small) is it simpler to work from inside shifting the gearbox or outside shifting the engine?

 

 

 

Hi Simon,

 

Only one way to get to the flywheel, and that is engine out. It is not really possible to pull the gearbox back as that entails disconnecting transferbox, then fueltank is in the way and so on.....

 

A small forklift truck is rather usefull for removing and refitting engines, especially if it has sideshift. Any farmers your way, got one you could borrow? If you use an engine crane, the ground has to be firm and smooth ( tarmac or concrete) otherwise it is difficult to manouvre the crane.

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Thats just bad news all the way........... if you were near here Simon (Devon that is) you would be welcome to fix it here and use one of my forklifts.

 

I think my flywheel was leaking at the drain plugs, but not 100% yet. Would like to see how you get on with your fix, photos if poss please, there are others who might find them useful in the near future!!!!

 

Cheers

 

Paul

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Strange you should mention Saracen...

 

I know that mine needs a new seal, it weeps so I get by with a regular top up, however it does need fixing and I'm building up courage and reserves of patience to do it. However 1st things first, I'm laying a concrete pad so there is a better work area for the Saracen to sit on over the winter while it is seriously off road.

 

Question, "Why do you want 9 cubic metres of concrete ?"

 

Answer "Because my flywheel has a leak!"

 

And what makes this post relevant to Ferrets? I bought the Ferret that was on sale at War and Peace! So far its a fantastic little thing (compared to a Saracen) and just right for nipping down to the shops. What with the engine in the rear, its all A*s* about face, but at least the forward reverse lever goes in the right direction.

 

Lots of sanding and painting, but apart from a bit of surface rust, excellent!

 

Sorry about hijacking the thread, but Simonm, somehow I missed adding your name to the Saracen list, I need some particulars, please?

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?16817-Saracen-Build-up/page24

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Well, here's me with my nice Ferret, brilliant, excellent tinwork, only marginal surface rust and runs with a very sweet engine noise. Another long drive out, got back and she was dripping hydraulic fluid, at least that's what it smelt like in that it wasn't engine oil, nor water and didn't really smell. Topped up the flywheel, it took 1.5 litres, off on another jaunt, checked again and it was down, checked the fillers, all looked good, B*****ugger! The seal's gone, clearly somebody up there wanted me to practice before doing the Saracen! Its a Mk 1/2 so lots of room on top and fits in the garage just under my winch, so I thought I would start immediately. I've photographed all the stages as a document which I have appended below.

 

I've taken advice from this forum and here: http://www.members.iinet.net.au/~dgrev/dhmg/ferr010.html and am using the John Deere seal.

All images are here: http://picasaweb.google.com/simon.mallett/FerretOilSeal#

 

Basically, so far, it seems to be a relatively straightforward job that requires the removal of lots of nuts and bolts and lifting and separating a very heavy gearbox from the engine. The engine hoist made it so much easier.

 

The biggest challenge was the bolts joining the gearbox to the bell housing, some of which were nuts and bolts rather than studs, just keep at it! The two bolts directly underneath were relatively easy, a couple of socket sets making a long extension bar and bendy joint.

 

1/2 inch and 11/16th spanners and sockets, also 14mm and 15mm!

 

At the time of writing I am just about to pull the seal housing, I expect a serious gush of fluid.

 

 

Just about to start, wearing obligatory ex forces trousers.

 

The tin removed from the internals

 

The bell housing bolts ready to be removed. Note the linkages, in all cases I removed the split pin and retaining stud, hopefully to avoid having to re-align anything on re-assembly.

 

Drive shafts disconnected, all 4 had to be separated, NB as per comment on post further above, an opportunity to line up the wheels.

 

 

The gearbox and transmission ready to be lifted. NB It isn't lifted, rather supported otherwise there is a lateral force on the splined shaft that goes into the fluid flywheel, jamming it and stopping it coming apart.

 

 

Engine hoist

 

Transmission separated from the engine. Above the bellhousing is the fuel tank, note the pipe following the line of the tank, The tank and pipe obscured the nuts that had to be undone to release the transmission. By removing fuel tank retaining bolts I was able to raise the tank and pipe out of the way.

 

The beast herself. A slight indication of fluid at the base of the seal, lots a of fluid all over the floor of the Ferret, bolts holding the seal retaining plate removed, next step to pull it out.

 

The Saracen Manual, okay its not the right one but close enough, and the new seal

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Edited by simonm
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