Ether ?

[Richard Grosvenor]

I may be stupid but where / how do you buy ether?

The reason for asking is we have an Ex-MOD 20 KVa Generator powered by a Ford 6 cyl diesel engine. In the instructions it says in cold weather to pump some ether into the engine before starting, there seems to be some still in the pump but I'd like to get some ready.

 

Ether's not the same as Easy Start is it? I've always been told never to use that as the engine can become hooked on it

 

 

regards

Richard

[Tony B]

Switch beast on take wires from sender and touch together. The gauge should go to full. A multi meter will test the sender on ohms, if you can shake the tank the gauge should flicker. Otherwise the usual check wiring.

[Richard Grosvenor]

Oh right. That sounds easy. I will give that a go tomorrow

 

Thanks Tony

 

:-) Richard

[antarmike]

I had always assumed that the BSP tapping and blanking plug fitted next to a throttle type butterfly in the inlet manifold of the AEC O853 Matadors was for ether cold starting, but I had never seen it in a manual, ( and I have at least six different Matador manuals and handbooks).

 

That was until the other day when a guy at work gave me an RAF drivers Manual for the Matador (Book No 100 F.W.3. Air publication 2571 Vol 1 Part 1)

and there on pages 12 and 13 was this:-

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q208/antarmike/18-12-2007214310.jpg[/img]

 

[antarmike]

Oh aqnd my ROF APFLT Eager Beaver is also fitted with Ether cold starting ( but it is a Perkins!!!)

[abn deuce]

interesting that to stop the engine you lift up on the accelerator pedal in a Matador! never would have guess!

[Grumpy]

My Tatra 813 uses Ether capsules to start when running on neat or nearly neat petrol (its a V12 Diesel Lump) you just have to remember to chuck a couple of gallon of engine oil in that tank for pump lubrication.

[antarmike]

Easystart of course isn't just for starting worn out engines, all diesels are harder to start when very cold, but this is particularly true of indirect injection engines. A well maintained diesel will not start in very cold weather if the heat generated in compressing the charge does not raise the temperature enough to ignite the diesel spray from the injectors. Easystart and other "ether" type sprays have a lower flash point than diesel, and will ignite when diesel won't.

 

In an indirect injection engine the air is compressed in the cylinder where its temperatore rises but it has to pass through a narrow, passage in the head, to reach the injection chamber. In passing through this passage, a lot of the heat the charge gained when compressed is lost to the cold metal that forms the walls of the passage.

 

If ether is introduced during induction stroke it will be in the cylinder as it the charge is compressed where it will combust in the cylinder not in the cooler injection chamber.

[ArtistsRifles]

interesting that to stop the engine you lift up on the accelerator pedal in a Matador! never would have guess!

 

 

It was the same in the Militants - turn off the master switch on the dash to kill the electrics then lift the accelerator pedal to kill the engine.

[ArtistsRifles]

<snipped>

 

In an indirect injection engine the air is compressed in the cylinder where its temperatore rises but it has to pass through a narrow, passage in the head, to reach the injection chamber. In passing through this passage, a lot of the heat the charge gained when compressed is lost to the cold metal that forms the walls of the passage.

 

If ether is introduced during induction stroke it will be in the cylinder as it the charge is compressed where it will combust in the cylinder not in the cooler injection chamber.

 

 

I'm told (as yet I've no first hand experience/knowledge...) the OT uses the batteries to spin a compressor which charges an air flask which, in turn, is used to spin the engine over till the diesel ignites... Odd sounding system but....... :coffee2:

[Richard Farrant]

I'm told (as yet I've no first hand experience/knowledge...) the OT uses the batteries to spin a compressor which charges an air flask which, in turn, is used to spin the engine over till the diesel ignites... Odd sounding system but....... :coffee2:

 

 

Neil,

 

That sounds similar to the Meadows 27.5Kva gen set. They had a belt driven compressor, that charged a tank up to about 400 psi (memory is not good, but it might be higher) and used an air starter motor, which was configured as a V4 piston unit. This used to whang them over quickly, but woe betide you if you had not got the excess fuel button in and throttle set correctly, because once the air was exhausted, it was the crank handle and on a cold day it could want some heaving over.

 

Basically, it could be on your OT, that the air starter is used because it will spin the engine quicker than an electric starter motor, which is essential in very cold conditions.

[N.O.S.]

Or the Bryce Berger Hydraulic starter :shake: :shake: :shake:

 

Have one on a McClaren 5 cyl engine off MOD Grain Discharge Unit. They also had one of those 4cyl air motors in place of the starter motor.

 

Crankshaft has a gear wheel on front, engaging with a gear rack powered by hydraulic cylinder which, once an accumulator is pumped up to 6,000psi by a hand pump, moves across pretty smartish and spins the engine.

 

A truly frightening piece of kit which I have replaced by a Centurion (?) starter motor - much better thank you!

[Richard Farrant]

 

Crankshaft has a gear wheel on front, engaging with a gear rack powered by hydraulic cylinder which, once an accumulator is pumped up to 6,000psi by a hand pump, moves across pretty smartish and spins the engine.

 

 

 

Tony,

 

I had forgotten that one, the Army had them on a new range of Gen Sets in the late 80's. I think the engine was a Ford 6 cyl Industial unit, (2700 series ???). Pretty simple idea really.

[N.O.S.]

Yes, certainly simple, but the unit for the McClaren, itself nearly the size of a ferret, is quite large and you stand with your head about 6" away from the two accumulators :shake: A pipe burst would not be good for you :shake:

Think it was 80 pumps to get enough for a start :sweat:

[Tony B]

Air start isn't uncommon. Usually used on large marine engines. One problem is that you have to the bottle charged in advance.

[Davie]

Air start isn't uncommon. Usually used on large marine engines. One problem is that you have to the bottle charged in advance.

 

I used to work at a boat builders, we made trawlers. Some of these were started by compressed air which was supplied by a diesel engine driven compressor. It seemed to be a good system. I also remember the hydraulics guys had a flushing rig which had a clockwork starter. It was wound up by a spanner, then push the lever and you got about three seconds of engine turning before the spring needed wound up again. Not very good on a cold day.

[Tony B]

What about the old Koffman starter? Stick a burning fag paper onto a bit of metal and screw into engine. Then place blanck 12 bore in hole and hit with hammer. :whistle: If the bit of paper wern't screwed in it would fly off like a missile.

[snowtracdave]

What about the old Koffman starter? Stick a burning fag paper onto a bit of metal and screw into engine. Then place blanck 12 bore in hole and hit with hammer. :whistle: If the bit of paper wern't screwed in it would fly off like a missile.

Same method used to start Field Marshall tractors - remove plug from cylinder , insert paper treated with saltpetre , light & get glowing , out plug back in , set decompressor & wind it up then away they go . Or if you don't fancy winding , bung a starting cartridge in the top after lighting the paper , belt it & away she goes . Always attracts an audience at the shows either method .

[Tony B]

Great minds Dave! :-D

[abn deuce]

Reminds me of the scene in "Flight of the Phoenix" with James Stewart , I thought that kind of starter had only been used on aircraft .....the things you learn in the process of living its amazing.

 

Speaking of the movie now I have to pick which version to pop in the DVD played and watch the original 1965 or the 2004 with Dennis Quaid remake with the CGI effects ???

[antarmike]

The simplest system is the clockwork starter, in which you hand wind a bl00dy great spring which you release to spin the engine and if it doesn't go you just wind it up and try again. Some Petters had them amonst others

 

[ArtistsRifles]

Reminds me of the scene in "Flight of the Phoenix" with James Stewart , I thought that kind of starter had only been used on aircraft .....the things you learn in the process of living its amazing.

 

Speaking of the movie now I have to pick which version to pop in the DVD played and watch the original 1965 or the 2004 with Dennis Quaid remake with the CGI effects ???

 

 

I'd go gor the original version every tiime - I saw the 2004 remake and was totally unimpressed!!!!

[Richard Grosvenor]

Tony,

 

I had forgotten that one, the Army had them on a new range of Gen Sets in the late 80's. I think the engine was a Ford 6 cyl Industial unit, (2700 series ???). Pretty simple idea really.

 

 

That's it, thats what ours is. I've had a little play with the hydraulic start thing but didn't realise it could take that many pumps. If it ever gets warmer I'm going to have a good look at the generator.

 

Oh...tried touching the two wires on the sender unit. Nothing. So I geuss the next step is to start checking the wiring :dunno:

 

Richard

[N.O.S.]

RG - I have some generic Bryce Berger instructions which I could copy if you need them (found in a Rolls Royce C series manual), but there should be a pressure indicator (with a 1 1/2" dia. glass dome) on the unit which shows when presure is up. There is also a relief valve set at 5,000psi for safety.

[antarmike]

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q208/antarmike/andiscotlandtrip122.jpg[/img]

Eager Beaver ether starting...

[antarmike]

I have details of Williams and James Air starters (V4 piston engine) Ingersold Rand air starter ( 6 Vane rotary) air starter, Bryce hydraulic starter , Berger Hydraulic Starter, Bendix Inertia starter (Clockwork) all of which were used on the Rolls C6 series of engines. The Rolls C6T in my Antar uses a standard electric strter...