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The problem, as I see it, is that by going the FAC route, we are sort of 'agreeing' with the notion of these DE-ACTIVATED weopens, are Fire Arms;............... :?

Ok, PRE De-Activation, they were,..............., POST Dr-Activation, they ARE NOT. !!

 

Unfortunatly, this seems like another ill thought out 'knee jerk', reaction, to what is a serious situation, involving ILLEGAL weopens.

 

Is the next item on this 'slippery slope,- ban it, it's dangerous, agenda' going to be motor vehicles;...............as there are quite probably more fatalities per day due to folks driving around without licences/mot/tax etc; ....and lits face it; a motor vehicle out of control can really cause a mess..............

 

Andy

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If they can use public emotion (as they have with the poor lad up in Liverpool now) to do it and not tread on the human rights of the so-called minority groups then this might well be on the cards.....

 

Although how the population is meant to be able travel afterwards would be interesting..

I tried the public transport today. Had to get to hospital and the car was off the road with a knackered starter. By car the trip takes maybe 10 minutes. Today I spent2.5 hours using buses and by the time I got there I was 1.5 hours late for my appointment as well as being soaked to the skin and frozen through. >:( >:(

 

 

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Ok the WW2 Forum have started up a No.10 Online petition, I will post a link as soon as it goes live... better to have one focused petition than a few running...

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Before we go any further

 

The Govt minister Jacqui Smith intends by what ever means to make a name for herself, by whatever means, namely on the back of a child's life.

Gun crime will not cease or diminish until the punishment is suitable.

 

To our moderators, I find the statement that any political comments will be removed draconian, and is not the way to discuss openly what is now happening.

If the debate gets heated, so it is a very emotive subject and will stir many passions, but please do not censor people wholesale on political views, 60 years ago a man and a dictatorship were doing such a thing :-(

These people who we elect, are accountable and not beyond reproach, so why can they not be criticised for the beliefs and views of them and their parties.

They will use us as scapegoats, and if need be hang us out to dry if it suits their needs.

 

But we have to be decent and play according to Queensbury and have a good innings :whistle:??????????????????????????????????

 

I bet in not too long one of the tabloids is going to link

us- deacts-gun crime- possibly neo nazis and have a field day

so if we haven't had our verbals and a parley, sorted our differences and united they will have us divided

The suggestion of going with the positive and the idea of licensing ? Maybe better than losing all :dunno: and we look concerned and responsible, what do others thing??

 

Would like to see a few more of the membership on here, and their views!!!!!!

 

 

Hardyferret

 

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To our moderators, I find the statement that any political comments will be removed draconian, and is not the way to discuss openly what is now happening.

Hardyferret

 

 

 

 

 

Forum Rules.

Politics.

 

Politics creeps into every day life and the movement has, like all others its fair share of politics - but it isn't tolerated here on HMVF. Yes, sometimes we can all have a bad hair day but please keep it off the forum. One of the reasons that HMVF is so successful is because it is politics free, it is a safe place to spend some time and it shows respect to all fellow members if we keep politics off the forum. Open debate is good and healthy and is encouraged but the moderating team, without question will take the appropriate action to keep HMVF smooth and 'trouble' free.

 

Again, if you think something you are about to post might risk inadvertently offending another member, then don't post it.

 

Hi HF.

 

if you want to make a request to Jack asking that you can discuss politics & he agrees then all well & good, until that time we will be following the guidelines he has give us.

 

Cheers

 

Lee

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Unfortunately, this whole saga is riddled with politics, and stinks, of power grabbing and bull :angry: :-( :-(

I can see what Jack would like , but in this instance and I mean this sincerely and not harshly, wishful thinking.

Majority of us are fed up with the never ending stream of legislation and PC

 

But I will talk to Jack as it is only right, but feel this is too important a subject for restraint, apart from exceptional circumstances

 

Regards Jerry AKA HF

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Unfortunately, this whole saga is riddled with politics, and stinks, of power grabbing and bull :angry: :-( :-(

I can see what Jack would like , but in this instance and I mean this sincerely and not harshly, wishful thinking.

Majority of us are fed up with the never ending stream of legislation and PC

 

But I will talk to Jack as it is only right, but feel this is too important a subject for restraint, apart from exceptional circumstances

 

Regards Jerry AKA HF

 

 

 

Yes I agree with the bigger picture here HF and I think it needs to be discussed in a manner & regard accustomed to HMVF so please disccuss away and as Lee has pointed out if any post 'go off' then that post will be pulled.

 

Best wishes.

 

Jack.

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I have been reading these replies, and my comment is that we plus the MVT, IMPS all re-enactment groups and all other interested organisations need to get together and form a united front rather than just bickering between ourselves. Could someone from a major group start by organising a meeting at a major show, such as Stoneleigh on Feb 3rd? This ban on de-acs isn't going to happen overnight, so we have time to plan a campaign and organise ourselves. Any comments?

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The more I read the contents of this thread the more confused I am :?

 

so will someone please explain to me the point of this thread :dunno:

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Mrs HF - The Gov't in the form of Ms Smith, the less than adequate home secretary, has announced that she wants ownership of deactivated eapons (i.e. Jerrys SLR) banned by the end of the year - and she is using the public emotion at the killing of a young boy in Liverpool recently to justify this action.

 

I think Jerry has a valid point regarding the licensing. We've seen from past events this Gov't will use the emotive, knee-jerk type of politics to obtain their ends as per the ban on handgun ownership etc. Perhaps the best way to counter this is for the (hopefully) united front of vehicle owners, re-enactment societies et al to counter the emotive hype with a public counter presentation showing that we are responsible and pro-active in control of the deacts we own. According the quote from the BBC news she said:

 

"I will shortly consult on a way forward to allow genuine curators to collect legitimate firearms while giving the police and other enforcement agencies the powers they need to get black market firearms of our streets.

 

To me this implies the only ones the Gov't want to be allowed to hold deacts will be museums like the IWM. In other words she is implying that the likes of us are considered too irresponsible to be allowed to own deacts. This is a point of view that needs to be corrected quickly before it becomes entrenched in the public's psyche!! If it does then we'll be fighting a losing battle. The other statement made in the BBC report worthy of note is that:

 

The proposal to make converted or deactivated guns illegal comes after a huge increase in the amount of model and pellet guns to have been converted to fire live ammunition.

 

NOT the amount of deacts returned to a live condition but the amount of model & pellet guns which AFAIK require NO form of certification or licensing. Ithe Gov't in general and Ms Smith in particular were really concerned about being able "protect the public and allow police to remove black market firearms from the streets" then they would have been looking at these types of weapon FIRST.

 

Whislt I agree with many that having to have a license is distateful and yet another form of taxation on our hobby - surely this would be better than losing it altogether?? If the collective movements make it known publicly that we would be prepared to license our deacts and highlight the secure conditions thay are stored in we could get the public on our side and counter the emotional blackmail the Gov't is curently tryng to use. Also - Ms Smiths boss is only interested in money - a licensing scheme would be more pennies for him to sit and count..

I also think that if Ms Smith succeeds in getting this ban it will be the thin end of the wedge and (assuming their collective a*ses don't get a royal kicking in the next election) this Gov't will then go after the vehicles as well

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The whole idea of a deactivated weapon is that it shouldn't be able to made for want of a description fireable. My understanding having seen pre and post deacs is that pre 95 deacs have more moving parts i.e. more realistic able to pull the trigger cock so on so forth. Post 95 deacs from the ones that I have seen, have more of the insides milled scooped away and welded up. If someone has access to guns spares such as an armourer he she could theoretically reactivate a pre 95 weapon notice the word THEORETICALLY! Post 95 more difficult more engineering required. To reactivate a weapon a person has to have a basic understanding off firearms and be able to operate the machines required to do the work; lathes milling machines and such. For the vast majority of the population those engineering skills do not exist, most people do not have the equipment / skills to reactivate a deac. I don’t have the skills nor the expertise, but I do understand what would be needed and DIY tools from B&Q won’t do the job!

In the 'engineering' world it is becoming more and more difficult to find people with those basic skills, look around for engineering type workshops there not there anymore in this country.

The suggestion that a licence of some sort could be suggested for ownership of deacs was an honest one. If we don’t jump in with suggestions for responsible ownership you can bet the last pound in your pocket that we’ll lose the rights we presently have. It is possible to see on the horizon a total ban on any form of civilian gun ownership so get in first with MVT, IMPS, I hate this word in so many ways but it fits be proactive the anti gun lobby already is!

 

I dislike the pc lobby, the nanny state so on so forth but you have to act responsibly and positively where this one is concerned otherwise it will be gone and once it’s gone it’s gone for good!

 

I haven’t got a fire arms certificate if that’s what it’s called but I’d rather pay to keep what I have, even if it’s a new form of licence because I’m sure that any compensation won’t cover what I’ve already paid out.

 

Andy

 

I wrote the above while Neil was writing his out

 

 

 

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Just as a point of intrest. The 'Goverment' are planning to spend currently about £18 million, who alone knows what the final bill will be, on a shooting centre for the Olympics in 2012, at Woolwich. This will all be dismantled afterwards. Where do the 'Goverment' get the money. Ban on one hand squander on the other. :dunno: Incedentaly , the 'goverment' hs made statements that they ar'not against shooting' and Sir sebastian Coe ( :pfrt:) has been singing the praises of Britian's chances of wining medals in shooting events. The Urban Street 100 mtere Kalashnikov teenage challenge section perhaps?

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Yesterday evening the BBC amended there news report on their website after they were asked to provide evidence on the Large number of deacs used in crime....

 

Ready for the Stats, there shocking... Not.... Don't forget to include these stats when writing to your MP.

 

Offences

 

However, the most recent Home Office firearms figures from 2005/6 show that reactivated or deactivated firearms were recorded as being used in just eight offences, out of a total of 11,084.

 

Reactivated handguns were used twice; deactivated firearms were used four times; and other reactivated firearms were used twice.

 

There were, however, a large number of offences (4,989) in which the weapon was unidentified or unknown.

 

Shadow home secretary David Davis said deactivated weapons accounted for a tiny proportion of gun crime.

 

"The home secretary should realise that the public want a rigorous, long-term and holistic approach to the scourge of gun-crime, not ad-hoc announcements which will do little more than paper over the cracks," he said.

 

Government ministers look set to reclassify deactivated weapons as replica guns, which are already banned.

 

The move will affect weapons which were deactivated before 1995, when new standards made it harder to convert non-firing guns back into lethal weapons.

 

 

 

An ACPO spokeswoman said she welcomed the closing of a loophole in the law that allowed people to own deactivated weapons, even though realistic imitation firearms were banned in 2006 under Violent Crime Reduction Act.

 

Offences

 

However, the most recent Home Office firearms figures from 2005/6 show that reactivated or deactivated firearms were recorded as being used in just eight offences, out of a total of 11,084.

 

Reactivated handguns were used twice; deactivated firearms were used four times; and other reactivated firearms were used twice.

 

There were, however, a large number of offences (4,989) in which the weapon was unidentified or unknown.

 

Shadow home secretary David Davis said deactivated weapons accounted for a tiny proportion of gun crime.

 

"The home secretary should realise that the public want a rigorous, long-term and holistic approach to the scourge of gun-crime, not ad-hoc announcements which will do little more than paper over the cracks," he said.

 

Government ministers look set to reclassify deactivated weapons as replica guns, which are already banned.

 

The move will affect weapons which were deactivated before 1995, when new standards made it harder to convert non-firing guns back into lethal weapons.

 

Police say many firearms currently being used in crime were deactivated before that time.

 

Collector implications

 

A Home Office spokesman said any new law brought in following the home secretary's announcement would relate "almost entirely" to pre-1995 guns.

 

Ms Smith's visit to Liverpool comes as police raids saw 25 people arrested on suspicion of supplying Class A drugs in the Croxteth and Norris Green areas of the city.

 

The Home Office is also to consider the implications for museums with collections of antique weapons.

 

Gill Marshall-Andrews of the Gun Control Network said: "We are delighted, this has been on our agenda for a long time. It is a big loophole in our firearms legislation."

 

But firearms collector Julian Tacon feared the proposals could have a major impact on legitimate collectors while being ignored by criminals.

 

"It would affect many, many people and trade worth millions. I would be extremely concerned about that," he said.

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I have been having a surf around the various political party website local and national.

And it is disturbing, how the following keeps appearing

 

'The ease of which deactivated weapons can be reactivated'

 

Where has this misinformation come from? Some mindless font of dross, at this point the editors of The Daily Sport and The Sun please take a bow for some cracking editorial masterpieces........ Not

 

A real counter propaganda war has to happen, gun crime happens for mainly one reason, turf wars.

Why do we have turf wars, drugs and the resulting wealth. There is a glimmer of hope on this front that the classification of cannabis is to be possible reversed with possession once again a properly punishable offence, not just a warning.

But the whole thing of drug culture has to be reversed from the 'its only a bit of blow man don't be such a pussy'

Also the glamorisation of guns, Arnie, Sly,Bruce etc really have to answer as role models to millions, but we have all agreed on this old favorite :whistle:

 

How about drug supply convictions, parole for good behaviour no option, 2nd offence double the sentence?

Harsh, comes under eggs and omelette's :|

Same sort of tariff for gun crime. The belief of liberal minded, try to reason with these people has been proved useless.

So no carrot, try the stick.

I have been lucky to work inside HMP Verne on Portland, not the highest security but pretty high. The standard of living, the amenities are better than what I enjoyed as a recruit :| I know some will say anyone deserves certain standards, but come on.

If the regime was harder, just maybe these thugs would consider.

And this is what needs to be broadcast to the public, banning legitimately held weapons solves zilch, and not just the guns but why are they being used?

This is similar to what I will be sending to my MP and other political candidates in Dorset, and will post their replies

 

Off the soap box and to bed

 

Hardyferret :-(

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The B******Y law already exists and has done for decades. Any person using ANYTHING in conection with a crime with the intent to convice the victim that it is a firearm is guilty of anfirearm offence, and this DOES include the banana in abag!

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From the Prop Store of London

John Batley who is Director of the Gun Trade Association (GTA) : http://guntradeassociation.co.uk/. We are members of this association.

 

The GTA work very closely with the home office, becoming involved when any new acts or bills regarding guns are proposed / introduced. It was predominantly due to their involvement in the VCR (Violent Crime Reduction Act) that deactivated weapons were taken off the bill last time around.

 

The current situation - which the GTA expect to be clarified by the end of this week or early next week is as follows:

 

The original specification for deactivating firearms to a level agreed by all relevant bodies was set in 1988. After only a few years it was considered that the ‘88 specification of deactivation was not rigorous enough and left too many opportunities for deactivated guns to become reactivated.

 

Taking this into consideration a new, more comprehensive standard was introduced in 1995. This reduced the number of moving components that could be left functional within the weapon (which varied from weapon to weapon i.e. a shotgun can still have the pump action movement but a machine guns bolt has to be dead welded) and changed other similar specifications. This ensured that it would be almost impossible to reactivate them.

 

According to the GTA (and this has not yet been officially confirmed by the Home Office but has already been indicated) the statement made by Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, actually relates to the banning of ‘88 specification deactivated weapons. i.e all weapons that were deactivated between 1988 and 1995. It is also expected that any owners of ‘88 specification weapons will have the opportunity to take their items to an armorers to be worked on, bringing the specification up to the ‘95 grade.

 

It is not anticipated that the Government will try to pass an act that will outlaw the ownership of all deactivated weapons as the GTA estimates they would have compensation claims running in the £100’s of millions of pounds to consider.

 

The Prop Store of London has offered its services to the GTA in voicing the concerns of our community within the UK and making the Government aware or our sector of the market place. Luckily we have some firm public precedents to call upon - like the Christies James Bond Weapons sale last year. These act as a clear indicator of the significant value (both historically and fiscally) of such items within the UK.

 

The GTA have asked if we could supply them with some non specific information with regards to the number and total approximate market value of either pre ‘88 or post ‘95 deactivated weapons.

 

It would help us immensely if those within this community could email me at stephen@propstore.com with any such info. Please note we do not need to know and we are not asking for specifics from collectors we just need to have just an idea of what’s out there. For example - an email from a collector stating that he / she owns two deactivated pistols and one deactivated machine gun all deactivated post 1995 with a total market value of £10,000 is all that we need.

 

If anybody is unsure then please contact me via email or phone us on 01494 766485 and I’ll happily discuss further.

 

For clarification - this only applies to collectors within the UK.

 

We will be keeping a very close eye on this and John at the GTA has promised to keep us informed as matters progress and he wall call upon us for our voice and additional support when required.

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At last - a piece of good news on this sorry tale of ignorance and ineptitude. Thanks Lee!!! :-) :-) :-)

 

 

 

I'll echo that statment.

Cheers for posting, Lee.

 

Andy

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Ok the WW2 Forum have started up a No.10 Online petition, I will post a link as soon as it goes live... better to have one focused petition than a few running...

 

 

This still hasn't gone live yet...

 

Thank you for creating your petition

It has been entered on our system and will now go to the Number 10 team for approval.

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So 'Number 10' approve the petions that supposedly allow the public to object to their intentions? You couldn't make that up!.

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So 'Number 10' approve the petions that supposedly allow the public to object to their intentions? You couldn't make that up!.

 

 

Downing Street is working in partnership with the non-partisan charitable project mySociety to provide a service to allow citizens, charities and campaign groups to set up petitions that are hosted on the Downing Street website, enabling anyone to address and deliver a petition directly to the Prime Minister.

 

mySociety is a charitable project that runs many of the UK's best-known non-partisan political websites, like HearFromYourMP.com and TheyWorkForYou.com. mySociety is strictly neutral on party political issues, and the e-petition service is within its remit to build websites which give people simple, tangible benefits in the civic and community aspects of their lives. For more information about mySociety and its work, visit its website.

 

The e-petition system has been designed to be transparent and trustworthy. For legal and anti-spam reasons this site cannot host every petition submitted, but the rule is to accept everything that meets the terms and conditions of use.

 

No petition will be rejected unless it violates these terms. And even when petitions cannot be hosted No10 will still publish as much of rejected petitions as is consistent with legal and anti-spam requirements, including the reason why it could not be hosted.

 

If you have any questions about the service, you can email either the Downing Street web team at webmaster@pmo.gov.uk or mySociety at team@mysociety.org.

 

Do you accept all petitions?

We aim to accept as many petitions as possible. However this site has to meet standards that are set out in our terms and conditions and in the Civil Service Code.

 

Petitioners may freely disagree with the Government or call for changes of policy. There will be no attempt to exclude critical views and decisions to accept or reject will not be made on a party political basis.

 

What happens if my petition is rejected?

If your petition does not meet these criteria, we will send it back to you along with an explanation of the reason(s) for rejection. We will give you the option of altering and resubmitting the petition.

 

If you decide not to resubmit your petition, or if your second iteration is also rejected, we will list your petition and the reason(s) for not accepting it on this website.

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Thanks for the Safariswing. As someone qualified to spread the S*** my professional opinion :pfrt: The only time politicians worry about people is when it is time to mark the X.

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