What vehicle is this at Caffiers 1940

[BOBC1940]

Hi,

I have never found out just which vehicle this is, does anyone know ?

key features 2 same size doors left side, loks like also 2 on right, spare tyre both sides, foldaway roof canvas at rear. Long bonnet. twin headlights separate to front.

Its in the often seen photo of an Me109E4 coded 1+l (yellow outline black) of 9 staffel JG26 at Caffiers in August 1940, with pennant on aerial post,

https://alchetron.com/Gerhard-Schöpfel#gerhard-schpfel-7f080f03-e058-4f40-976b-17f720a314d-resize-750.gif  part way down page is one example.

 

Cheers

BOBC

[Rootes75]

Cant say I recall ever seeing one of those, I will have a look through my books and see if I can find one.

[Nick Johns]

It is a Military Mercedes Benz 320, 4x2,  fitted with 6.50 x 20 truck wheels/tyres

Edited July 4, 2020 by Nick Johns

[BOBC1940]

Excellent,

many thanks for the ultra quick data, awesome, and a lifetimes worth of wondering over

I was trying to find out needing to finish an order with a model shop and felt I wasnt to find an answer anytime soon, and plumped for an expensive kit, now I can try and get a kit of it and add that as well.

I see Bronco models do an early version but its going to need major surgery, wheel hubs, length of bonnet, doors, too much I fear.must try and get a later version,shame as 1940 is somewhat early !

BOBC

Edited July 4, 2020 by BOBC1940

[Nick Johns]

the above Bronco model kit is a Horch, not a Mercedes

Edited July 4, 2020 by Nick Johns

[BOBC1940]

Ah, thanks, thats google for you, I pasted in your vehicle type and it showed this and I didnt give it a second glance as it looked similar. I dont think there is a kit of it at all having been looking for a while, .

http://auto-zer.com/photo/mercedes-benz-320-wehrmacht/10/default.html
 

BOBC

[paul hocking]

hi,

Would say that the Luftwaffe Kubelwagen is a M-Benz 340 WK, almost identical to the 320 WK but a bit longer and slimmer looking, the 320 wheelbase was 2880mm whereas the 340 was 3300,mm.. The second photo down from Nick is the 320 WK,. different gaps between rear doors and rear mudguards, slightly wider doors, slightly more of a gap bwteen the two step in plates, and so on.

The 320 and 340 are hugely different to the mEpkw in most areas, apart from the wheelbase again, 3100mm for the mEpkw, tyre size,  LxWxH and so on are all different..

Not sure there is a kit out there of a 320 or a 340, so this could be a real challange, something like a 100% scratch build.

good luck, cheers lennard, 

Edited July 5, 2020 by paul hocking

[BOBC1940]

Hi,

Paul, thanks for the revised data. When you say the 2nd photo down from Nicks, which photo are you referring to ?

I see either my kit box art, or the link I posted which I see is the same pic as Nicks.

Have you any pics or data on the M Benz 340 WK ?

I had assumed by now kits were made of most of Germanys vehicles, I guess not. There was a time I would have tackled a complete scratchbuild but now know the time involved, would nuke making a lot of the others I have stashed away which I want to make.

BOBC

[paul hocking]

Hi Bob,

I meant that Nick's M-Benz 320WK is the second photo down below your initial photo. ☺️ 

Am looking for a photo of a 340, they are rare and not always that easy to tell apart from a 320 photo.

Not at all familiar with what model kits are out there, but you never know, might be one.

 

cheers PAUL

[BOBC1940]

Hi,

I have spotted this kit which might be a good basis.

http://www.icm.com.ua/news/638-news.html

click on the CAD images, thumbnails. takes a lot of the guesswork out, coupled with the photos on the Mercedes Benz site.

https://mercedes-benz-publicarchive.com/marsClassic/en/instance/ko.xhtml?oid=4312&relId=1001&resultInfoTypeId=172#toRelation

2 images enlarge up well.

 

I see this surviving 320, that would be useful to study, who owns it ?

http://auto-zer.com/photo/mercedes-benz-320-wehrmacht/09/default.html

also masterbox do this kit which might give me the bonnet I could use with correct grille, extend it by cloning the grille, better than the ICM bonnet.

https://www.super-hobby.com/products/Sd.Kfz.-2-Type-170VK-German-military-radio-car.html

BOBC

Edited July 6, 2020 by BOBC1940

[paul hocking]

Hi Bob,

That kit is a Stoewer, Hanomag or BMW manufactured lEpkw which has a wheelbase of just 2400mm as against a 320 at 2880mm and the 340 at 3300mm, and of course LxWxH are different again. But modelling can change anything if you wish. .

Also found out that only 41 M-B 340 WK were built, so your Luftwaffe photo vehicle may or may not be one, being so rare makes it difficult to identify properly, but your two photos should help.   So I have to say I am hedging my bets about your original photo be a 340, needs more investigation.

M-Benz had a large range of Kubelwagen like the 340 so telling them apart can be tricky, let alone how similar they also were to the Wanderer, Horch, Adler, Stoewer etc, Kubelwagens of the time.,  but we try.............!!

cheers PAUL. 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by paul hocking

[BOBC1940]

Hi,

Have found some more pics and kits see edited post. Need to know for sure what that vehicle was, you guys on this forum are the best at this . The hubs differ from all those seen so far, why is that ? I would have to buy another kit just for the hubs.

I now wonder if the Bronco kit might have some uses as well for bonnet  or even the doors and rear end.

It has a matching windscreen with that lower segment. drivers left unlike the other kits, and the small lamp on pole drivers right.

https://www.super-hobby.co.uk/products/Mittlerer-Einheits-Personenkraftwagen-m.E.Pkw-Kfz-12.html#gallery_start

 

Am I right in thinking they have added a jerry can shelf at rear in the Caffiers pic as I dont see that on any of the pics and kits found so far.

Cheers

BOBC

Edited July 6, 2020 by BOBC1940

[paul hocking]

Hi Bob,

If you really want to construct a M-Benz Kubel it might be an idea to do a 320 WK, as there are a lot more photos arond of them with some 1700 built as opposed to just 41 of 340 WK.

Yes, you might have to buy several kits to get all the parts you want, and then modify or scratch some more.

 

So best of luck, cheers PAUL  

[BOBC1940]

Hi,

I have always wanted to model that particular vehicle in the Caffiers photo for 40yrs as I am a 9JG26 specialist, I even stood there on that spot many years ago, it hadnt changed.

I hope you or someone can give me the final decision on what vehicle it is. the rear shelf is two jerry cans deep whilst the MB pics look like one, unless the other side has room for 2.

BOBC

[BOBC1940]

Hi,

I had settled on that diea, especially given the lower link here.

I wonder who owns and operates this one ? It would yield some great references., dimensions etc.

I need to contact the owner.

http://auto-zer.com/photo/mercedes-benz-320-wk/03/default.html

I have found as you say a few 320's and all I need to do is stretch it a bit.

I see this photo of what is captioned as a 320 in Norway and studying it carefully it seems to match exactly the one at Caffiers. It has the same door spacing, hinge placement, hubs, spare wheel placements, headlight position, shelf at rear, two raised seats padded, I cant see a difference in fact.

so is the photo of a 340 ? or is Caffiers a 320 ?

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/wehrmacht_trucks/mercedes-benz/kubelwagen-320-wk-bergen-norway-1940/

I have since been busy scale matching the 320 Norway and a large version of Nicks as well as a side view of Nicks less the doors (same exact vehicle they took the doors off) and I can get everything to match from windscreen base to back of rear seat, door top edges, the triangular panel between doors and almost zero gap at top, item atop rear wheel arch, all door details and rear arch match, however fwd of the windscreen the Caffiers is longer. On the 340 photo from MB there is an extra amount of bodywork between the two side doors, also above the rear wheel arch the body is taller, side sill rises up. So its a 320 but I cant get the bonnet to match !

Cheers

BOBC

Edited July 6, 2020 by BOBC1940

[paul hocking]

Ho Bob,

Like I said a couple of notes above, if you are happy with a 320 then make a 320, but also like you, I think your Caiffiers photo is slightly different, it looks longer and slimmer that a 320, hence my suggestion that it was a 340, but again not all detail points match. 

So maybe its a hybrid of some description,...................?? so if you really want a model of the Caiffiers vehicle, just make your model exactly as what you see in the photo, and forget what its M-Benz number might me.

cheers Paul 

[BOBC1940]

Hi,

It could be perspective playing tricks, I need to use the distort tool in photoshop and make the sides parallel, then we shall see, but yes otherwise just make the model match what might be a hybrid. Just found someone restoring one so I hope for some dimensions etc., along with the photo of one at an event there are at least 2 of the 320 in existence. Its not a 340 thats for sure.

BOBC

[paul hocking]

Hi Bob,

Maybe just model a 320, you will not be far wrong, or maybe even correct. You have some dimensions for a 320, its wheelbase is 2880 mm, that is always a good start for scaling a vehicle, wheels are 6,50 - 20, which gives an overall diameter 33 inches (840 mm) another useful dimension, (happens to be the same as the 340 wheel size)..

The rear boot layout of these Reichwehr Kubels often varies , on some the bodywork ends just behind the rear seats and two strapped down storage boxes are then added, some have a single box, with room either side, maybe thats what you have here with jerrycans being located at the side of the single box, some later versions have bodywork  that extends beyond the rear seats to become a "boot" with a lift-up or drop-down rear door.  

These Reichwehr Kubels can vary a lot over time, even the same make and model, they were built in small order numbers, and for each small order, maybe was only for 50 vehicles at a time, so the next 50 would not necessarily be exacly the same in details. The other point is that these Kubel bodies were hand built, a wooden frame covered in steel, not mass produced pressed out identical metal bodies.

Remember there were only 41 of the 340 model made, thats no more than a pre-production run quantity for most auto companys, basically almost prototypes, variations could be rife across the 41.

 

cheers PAUL,  

Edited July 7, 2020 by paul hocking

[Rob T]

Bob, I googled 'Mercedes Benz 340 kubelwagen' and found the enclosed image from the website 'findblueprints.com'. 

I think that it's the only view of the vehicle available on the website, unfortunately.

I hope that you find it useful.

Rob.

[BOBC1940]

Thank you Rob T,

VERY USEFUL having an ortho view will help in establishing proportions of the build and mating the three 1/35 kits I now have together.

Mercedes Sd.Kfz.1 Type 170 VK

GERMAN ADLER Kfz. 13 ARMORED CAR  front arches

MITTLERER EINHEITS PERSOENKRAFTWAGEN m.E.Pkw Kfz 12 Early Version

I still need to source the hubs as on the Caffiers photo though.

 

and stop other unseen tasks from keep nuking my modelling time.

 

BOBC

[Rob T]

Bob,

     The more I look at your original photo from Caffiers, the more convinced I become that it's a 320 Kübelwagen. Very similar vehicles were built by other firms, for example Adler (the 3gd) and Wanderer (the W11.)

     Here's a 4-view drawing of a Mercedes Benz model 320, which I presume was modified into the Kübelwagen.

     Someone called Merlin on the website Britmodeller.com is attempting to build a model MB 320. It might help you to seek out and read his thread in the website. He considers using the wheels from a 1:35 scale Steyr lorry in his build.

    I look forward to seeing pictures of the finished model.

Rob.

[BOBC1940]

Hi,

Thats some change from the Mercedes 320 to the flat faceted Caffiers vehicle. If I had bought a kit of the 320 I wouldnt know where to start ! Doors, wheel arches, wheels, boot windscreen, bodywork sides, all to go, thats almost all the car ! I am aware of the Britmodeller article, thanks.

I look fwd to even getting time to start it. As fast as I get one task almost done another intervenes and takes over, only to in turn be gazumped by another. I buy a mobile phone and then lose 3 days trying to resolve faults with it, just to find out what truly is at fault so as to get the seller to fix all of it, one cannot say I think its got faults fix them, as one explores more faults come to the fore. This alone will nuke 6 days of my time, and so it goes on. Buying something not fit for purpose with 'no returns' written on the sales form.  Hey Ho.

Cupboard full of models and other humans wrecking plans again.

 

Major surgery needed on the kits for this, glad there is no deadline.

 

BOBC

[paul hocking]

Hi Bob,

Often wondered if you completed your model and which of the M-Benz's you decided to model eventually .

 

cheers Paul

[BOBC1940]

Hi Paul,

I bought the masterBox kit hitching a ride Sd.Kfz.1 Type 170 VK   and another one GERMAN ADLER Kfz. 13 ARMORED CAR for the front arches.

I read my last post .....and its happening all the time here.,   I look fwd to even getting time to start it. As fast as I get one task almost done another intervenes and takes over, only to in turn be gazumped by another. ....  Cupboard full of models and other humans wrecking plans again.

then I get a multi fractured spine mid year so nothing done in the year 2023 and just starting to pick up where I left off, and involved in a 10 week project that should have been 1 week.

I have had a massive project again far bigger than expected, I need to clone myself, modelling and real life objects CAD'ing.

Its a 320 as the doors meet up at top edge. I am not getting any modelling done for 2 yrs thanks to these large projects and then my back,.but I will get to do it, one day !

BOBC1940

[paul hocking]

Hi Bob,

Am amazed that I got such a quick reply, after some time people often disappear from a forum, however sorry to hear of your medical problems, and whatever else gets in the way of modelling.

So best of luck for the future in all aspects.

 

cheers PAUL