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rolls royce horizontally opposed


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I think it must be lying on its side and is actually a K60 (FV430 family) or L60 (Chieftain family) which are vertically opposed engines. The two crankshafts are geared together down one end of the engine. They are slightly out of phase with one set of pistons controlling the exhaust ports and the other set the inlet ports so it is rather more efficient than a conventional two stroke but has no cylinder head or gasket or valves. A very clever piece of design and pretty reliable once they gave up the multifuel requirement. L60s in particular were dreadful up to that point and at 104 hours it could well be toast !

David

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15 minutes ago, radiomike7 said:

Not horizontally or vertically opposed but opposed piston, other common examples are the Rootes TS3 and Napier Deltic.

Mike, my point was that they are vertical not horizontal. I agree that 'opposed piston' differentiates them from the type of engine in an original Volkswagen Beetle but I can't think of a vertical engine with a single crankshaft in the middle.

For those that don't know the other engines mentioned, the Routes TS3 had three horizontal cylinders with opposed pistons each connected by two connecting rods and a pivoted lever to a single crankshaft below the cylinders. Amazing sounding engines. The Deltic engine had three crankshafts in a triangle with three cylinders between them each containing two opposed pistons. I don't remember how many cylinders 'long' the engine was but it produced vast amounts of power when it worked - typically British !

David

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Lycoming developed a 12 cylinder 'Boxer' that could be mounted horizontally in a bomber and vertically in a fighter but the concept is thin on the ground as you suggested.

Deltic was 6 cylinders long with 36 pistons or 72 in a Deltic loco that had twin engines and generators.  It was initially developed for marine use in fast patrol boats.

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Just out of interest, were the L60/K60 not derived from the Junkers Jumo aircraft engines. I saw a picture of a Junkers engine once that looked strikingly similar to an L60.

Love the Napier engines, is there a book about Napier around?

Iain

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9 hours ago, Mk3iain said:

Just out of interest, were the L60/K60 not derived from the Junkers Jumo aircraft engines. I saw a picture of a Junkers engine once that looked strikingly similar to an L60.

Love the Napier engines, is there a book about Napier around?

Iain

Back in the '60's there was a Junkers wartime opposed piston aero engine in the K1 area of the R-R factory at Crewe, where the K60 was manufactured.

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I understood that the Junkers engine was used in airships not aircraft but have no evidence for this. It is frequently given as the inspiration for the RR engines but again this could be a bit like the story that the Churchill flat 12 engine was two Bedford truck engines bolted together despite the fact that the truck engine made 72hp and the tank engine 360hp and was a we bit bigger !

David

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6 minutes ago, Jerrykins said:

Back in the '60's there was a Junkers wartime opposed piston aero engine in the K1 area of the R-R factory at Crewe, where the K60 was manufactured.

Searching the interweb it seems Napier licence produced a version of the Jumo 204 (the Culverin) before the war.

 

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10 hours ago, David Herbert said:

I understood that the Junkers engine was used in airships not aircraft but have no evidence for this. It is frequently given as the inspiration for the RR engines but again this could be a bit like the story that the Churchill flat 12 engine was two Bedford truck engines bolted together despite the fact that the truck engine made 72hp and the tank engine 360hp and was a we bit bigger !

David

The Jumo 204-207 series were used in a few aircraft including the JU86 and some Blohm & Voss seaplanes.

The L60 is very like the Jumo 204 in looks at least, and Napier were making them in the 30's.

Who knows....

Edited by Mk3iain
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As far as I remember, Napier Deltic engines were developed from a German design. Although the British inovation was having one crankshaft counter rotate to dampen the vibration that was the main flaw in the original design. I think output was in the 3300 bhp region of this comparitivly light compact engine, a feature being the complicated geartrain to couple the cranks together. Deltic engines were used in Ham class minesweepers as well as APUs and Locomotives. As for unusual down under there is a RR K60 and a Ts3 that used to be shown running at some summer shows on Tasmania. There is/was also a Napier Deltic engine on the island as well, that had not run for many years. There used to be an active 2 stroke society as well. I think the stories of there journeys would be interesting.

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The "Ton" class minesweepers had three Napier Deltic engines, as I recall one for each shaft and a third for generating electricity. It was a long time ago but I can remember starting one on HMS Alfriston using the cartridge start system, the only time I have ever used this type of starter.

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9 hours ago, john1950 said:

As far as I remember, Napier Deltic engines were developed from a German design. Although the British inovation was having one crankshaft counter rotate to dampen the vibration that was the main flaw in the original design. I think output was in the 3300 bhp region of this comparitivly light compact engine, a feature being the complicated geartrain to couple the cranks together. Deltic engines were used in Ham class minesweepers as well as APUs and Locomotives. As for unusual down under there is a RR K60 and a Ts3 that used to be shown running at some summer shows on Tasmania. There is/was also a Napier Deltic engine on the island as well, that had not run for many years. There used to be an active 2 stroke society as well. I think the stories of there journeys would be interesting.

Doing a bit more interweb research it is said that the Deltic was a post war development of the Napier Culverin, which in turn was a Jumo (204) built under licence.

Intriguing ! 

Edited by Mk3iain
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It was the Deltic design triangle and crankshaft rotation gearing that was the British inovation, I cannot remember the name of the Napier engineer.  When a few years ago Class 66 Motive power was in short supply, A Deltic was on short term hire locally hauling freight. Stopping outside of where I live for the gates to be opened for it. If the wind was from the East I could still smell it 2 hours later as it gave its signiture cloud of smoke on pulling away. Most of the time it was only using one engine when on two the increase in sound and smoke was quite noticeable. 

Edited by john1950
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On 6/12/2020 at 10:06 AM, David Herbert said:

I think it must be lying on its side and is actually a K60 (FV430 family) or L60 (Chieftain family) which are vertically opposed engines. The two crankshafts are geared together down one end of the engine. They are slightly out of phase with one set of pistons controlling the exhaust ports and the other set the inlet ports so it is rather more efficient than a conventional two stroke but has no cylinder head or gasket or valves. A very clever piece of design and pretty reliable once they gave up the multifuel requirement. L60s in particular were dreadful up to that point and at 104 hours it could well be toast !

David

Which fuel did the damage  ?

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It wasn't the actual fuel that did the damage because they were normally run on diesel. The problem was that to be able to run multifuel the cylinder had to generate pressures and temperatures that would burn low grade fuels but also withstand the much higher pressures and temperatures generated by burning petrol and also unfortunately diesel. This turned out to be rather beyond the metallurgy available. When the multifuel requirement was removed a lot of detail redesign was done to optimize the engine for diesel, particularly on the L60 which had the biggest problem and the reliability went up as did the HP. The increase in HP though was not enough to keep up with the increase in weight of the Chieftain which had had a lower than intended power to weight ratio from the start. The result was the development of the CV12, still used in Challenger 2.

David

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Before Chieftain entered service the L60 was deemed in need of a number of modifications before it could be accepted  in to service  this is just one of the files on chieftain that l have of the trails dated 1962 l was going to post it on another thread on the forum but did not because  of timecl60.thumb.jpg.2527a9e621c2ae443820216673aa14aa.jpg

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23 minutes ago, John F said:

Nerd factoid: the designation "Jumo" was applied to all petrol, diesel and jet engines produced by Junkers... it's a typically-German contraction of "Junkers Motor".

🙂

Thanks John  👍

I've updated my posts to try and look like I know what I'm on about..😷

I'm sure there is loads more to learn about this, its really interesting.

 

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The Deltic was way ahead of its time, and a modern day redesign smaller capacity deltic would make a truly stunning ultra compact power plant with fantastic hp/litre figures with emissions bought up to date by current electronic injection systems

long live the 2 stroke!

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