Modern or newish ex military vehicles

[Mk3iain]

We are seeing more modern vehicles such as the current MAN trucks being cast with low hours and seemingly excellent condition.

How practical are they for the lay person to own. I hear tell of modern electronics such as Canbus systems etc. Hearing of the Australian experience with G wagons and the change to a vehicle controlled by a processor, such as not starting unless its completely happy. How are they getting on in service? Will they be a liability?

Generally does anybody have any feedback on how the modern vehicles that are being released or could be released in the coming years are really performing, quirks and problems.

Just a general question really, but we moving from "I can see it and understand and fix it" to where you need a functional flow chard of modules, anyway they are all too expensive for me..

 

Iain

Edited April 17, 2020 by Mk3iain
Spelling..

[David Herbert]

All modern (up to 15 years old) cars have similar systems and are generally pretty reliable. Usually it is a sensor or damaged wire causing the problem and you can work out the problem relatively easily without the diagnostics. BUT NOT ALWAYS ! I have a 2005 Range Rover and if the speedo stops working and I get a message that ABS and air suspension aren't working, it means that the left rear ABS sensor has died. Simples !

David

[Mk3iain]

6 minutes ago, David Herbert said:

All modern (up to 15 years old) cars have similar systems and are generally pretty reliable. Usually it is a sensor or damaged wire causing the problem and you can work out the problem relatively easily without the diagnostics. BUT NOT ALWAYS ! I have a 2005 Range Rover and if the speedo stops working and I get a message that ABS and air suspension aren't working, it means that the left rear ABS sensor has died. Simples !

David

That is the way now isn't it, OBD readers are almost essential and readily available for most cars. I have had similar problems with two cars,  VXR8 and a Touareg, both times it turned out to be wheel bearings.

For me though a lot of the enjoyment comes from working on things I can see working, fixing modern cars is something I have to do but don't enjoy, its not the same.

Also for me part of the appreciation of ex military equipment is the often simplistic but clever design to do a complex or difficult job, such as the little can openers for example.

[MIKES]

Quite a few of the MANs being cast are non-runners and although low mileage, can't be economically fixed due to necessary parts not being available.  I was surprised at this but have heard it confirmed by someone involved in the process. Terrible waste of tax payer monies as they don't make a fraction of their perceived value at auction. I'm not into the Army MANs as sole-less trucks in my opinion but if I did want to buy one, I would be concerned as to why there is never any physical viewing at the auctions and all bidding is done based upon the posted photo's on the website.

[Mk3iain]

2 minutes ago, MIKES said:

Quite a few of the MANs being cast are non-runners and although low mileage, can't be economically fixed due to necessary parts not being available.  I was surprised at this but have heard it confirmed by someone involved in the process. Terrible waste of tax payer monies as they don't make a fraction of their perceived value at auction. I'm not into the Army MANs as sole-less trucks in my opinion but if I did want to buy one, I would be concerned as to why there is never any physical viewing at the auctions and all bidding is done based upon the posted photo's on the website.

I suppose that you would have to deal with MAN for parts and info, that will not be cheap, if they will deal with you. Its an expensive way to pose at shows and you would have to have a very special requirement to buy one for business.

[john1950]

I think there is no vlewing on site because they do not have the personel to cater for an influx of civvy buyers. Also costs associated with insurance etc.

Edited April 18, 2020 by john1950
spelling

[johnwardle]

12 hours ago, Mk3iain said:

We are seeing more modern vehicles such as the current MAN trucks being cast with low hours and seemingly excellent condition.

How practical are they for the lay person to own. I hear tell of modern electronics such as Canbus systems etc. Hearing of the Australian experience with G wagons and the change to a vehicle controlled by a processor, such as not starting unless its completely happy. How are they getting on in service? Will they be a liability?

Generally does anybody have any feedback on how the modern vehicles that are being released or could be released in the coming years are really performing, quirks and problems.

Just a general question really, but we moving from "I can see it and understand and fix it" to where you need a functional flow chard of modules, anyway they are all too expensive for me..

 

Iain

The MAN SVs along with most current British military vehicles have lots of electronic equipment on them.

A couple of years ago I saw a REME corporal almost in tears when his laptop crashed while trying to diagnose a fault on a Foxhound.

All current British military vehicles have lots of special test equipment and specific diagnostic laptops which will be wiped before disposal so any civilian owner will have great difficulty working on them. 

The biggest problem with MAN SVs is that they can be shut down remotely from the factory in Germany!

[Mk3iain]

10 hours ago, johnwardle said:

The MAN SVs along with most current British military vehicles have lots of electronic equipment on them.

A couple of years ago I saw a REME corporal almost in tears when his laptop crashed while trying to diagnose a fault on a Foxhound.

All current British military vehicles have lots of special test equipment and specific diagnostic laptops which will be wiped before disposal so any civilian owner will have great difficulty working on them. 

The biggest problem with MAN SVs is that they can be shut down remotely from the factory in Germany!

Not good !

At least with older land rover's and Bedford's if the word came to leg it to a new location quick the worst would be a jump start off another vehicle. Now it would be, hold on get the laptop out...  Most likely there would be a trail of abandoned vehicles.

Not much chance of the average collector storing one of these and sorting it in a few years time in the shed.

I'll keep to older stuff.

Iain

[john1950]

If the factory have the shutdown codes, It does pose the question, What if an aggressor got there hands on them. On a Mercedes I drove it had a manual get you to a safe place switch for the gearbox in the armrest, for use if the auto system shut down. In these days when vehicles automaticaly send fault codes to the factory, It seems they are sometimes reluctant to share this information with the people trying to fix the fault.  

[Tony B]

There is somewhere, film of an acceptance test on the old Bedford MK. It was stood about 50 meteres from a large blast, all the windows went, various bits flew off. Then a squaddie got in, started it up and drove off.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Tony B

[64EK26]

20 hours ago, johnwardle said:

 

The biggest problem with MAN SVs is that they can be shut down remotely from the factory in Germany!

 

I believe that this actually happened in Afghanistan !!!!

[gordonb]

I was told the tale that an MAN wrecker was sent out to Canada and MAN remotely killed it because they thought it had been stolen. The Army were not amused because at the time they did not know MAN had the capability.

I have also been shown the switch on the dash board that bypasses all the things that would normally stop it  so you can at least limp it off the battlefield if a sidelight blows.

[andym]

I don't see how anyone can remotely shut the vehicle down unless they can somehow communicate with it?

Andy

[radiomike7]

15 hours ago, andym said:

I don't see how anyone can remotely shut the vehicle down unless they can somehow communicate with it?

Andy

McLaren had that technology in the F1 30 years ago, some current cars can get a software update without you even knowing.

 

[andym]

1 hour ago, radiomike7 said:

McLaren had that technology in the F1 30 years ago, some current cars can get a software update without you even knowing.

 

But ONLY if there's a means of communicating with them!

Andy

[radiomike7]

1 hour ago, andym said:

But ONLY if there's a means of communicating with them!

Andy

The F1 used a 14.4k modem which suggests that it was 2 way communication. 

[john1950]

One of the last companys I worked for had real time remote driver behavior monitoring, and did phone some drivers to tell to adjust there speed and or engine revs. Also Fridge temperature monitoring and also in real time vehicle manufacturer monitoring and security monitering. I always thought if they have the tech to watch they have the tech to intervene.

[wally dugan]

WHAT a pessimistic  lot we are every vehicle sold has problems  were manufactures come up with you cannot do this unless you have this manual or this piece of electric reader or this special tool and how many times has some one come up with the answer  to what seems a solution without all this stuff

Edited April 22, 2020 by wally dugan

[john1950]

It is ok for basic stuff but these vehicles have engine management boxes missing and transmission controls. These are going to be mega money from MAN. You could buy 2 or 3 vehicles to get one missing piece then it would have to be coded to the vehicle. This stuff is 5th and 6th generation stuff. Send for the 10 year old they will know how to program it.

[andym]

45 minutes ago, john1950 said:

This stuff is 5th and 6th generation stuff. Send for the 10 year old they will know how to program it.

You'll need proprietary information that you'll never get out of the OEM.  😞

Andy

[john1950]

Until the military vehicles get out into civvi life and start having problems no one wil know. Does anyone have a tame bod from an OEM or Dealer workshop to ask? I only know the first time I drove a MAN truck I could not open the truck front to check the oil, I would not start the days work until I had done. After a conversation which included doubts about my parents I went to the local dealers. Where it was found the cable for the lock was broken the bill went way into three figures and I was not flavour of the month. I do remember it needed a good glug of oil to get it onto the mark though.

[cosrec]

15 hours ago, radiomike7 said:

McLaren had that technology in the F1 30 years ago, some current cars can get a software update without you even knowing.

 

just looked it up august 2008 was called out RTA a 19 york.On arrival 8 wheel man truck hit up arse by 4 wheel man both  on driver training.  pulled in to a layby for sandwich one had stopped one had not. to be honest 4 wheeler was a mess  eight wheeler only had rear light smashed one side while loading 8 wheeler on to our low loader engine started cranking over nobody flinched  so carried on did it again i asked what the fs going "Oh dont worry thats Man in Germany trying to work outs whats wrong  the are trying to get in a position to enable us to limp home

Edited April 23, 2020 by cosrec

[Flofuel]

Hi, i would of commented sooner but have not been on the forum for ages.. Ill get this out first, i was on the SV Project Team many moons ago and did a lot of trials on them and even starred in a small film with Tiff Neddell when they were first released. Since leaving the Army the company i am now with used to make one of the variants so we know a fair bit about the trucks anyway.

1. MAN cannot shut down the truck...officially. The module which "did" this on the truck is TBM which was known as "Talk Back to Munich". It was a monitoring setup that was on and still was as far as i know when production standard trucks were released. It can be switched off anyway.

2. There are a few reasons why the 6t vehicles are being released of which my company bought one of the first ones. Some have mentioned reasons which maybe more up to date than mine but when they were introduced Afghanistan was in full swing and they were needed out sharpish. The 6t variant shares a lot of simliarity with civilian chassis/versions (ill mention more later). the other variants were the 9t and 15t. The 6t though was at its limit once you bolted on core armour and then RPG "cages" on to it over the front axles. Put in 2 blokes with kit, a GPMG on the roof and a radio to talk to and it was probably a little over the limit! Talk was then "why didn't we just ditch the 6t and have 9t/15t fleet?". Well hindsight is wonderful but as you are probably aware mil programs take a long time from idea to first-through-the-camp-gate and we were replacing 4t, 8t and 14t trucks. So with less troops then it makes sense to get rid of any surplus of which the 6t has been deemed so.

3. Some of the variants being released are of the early production models. You can tell by the armour fitment points on the doors and some other areas. So they are the oldest even though from what i have seen, they have little mileage.

4. The early released ones on the first few sales, a lot were ex-BATUS of which is ours. Cosmetically it looks tired with sand/green paint but the mileage is only 13,000km. But thos Km's are on Canadian Praire, so pretty hammered. But saying that we had a few fault codes and mechanically its fine.

5. OBD etc. To read properly MAN diagnostics you need MANCAT laptop. But you can buy OBD readers to read them. But if you know, you can use the Driver display to show you the important ones and see if they are still Open or Closed. Most of the ones being released will have fault codes. Especially when electrical mil stuff has been disconnected and chassis codes are not cleared. But a lot of the MAN codes come up which although showing on the auction site pics, would put you off and you think it had major issues. I would not let that worry you too much. We saw fault codes on our one in the pictures but knew what they mean or could mean and bought it. Got it back to factory and no issues with the codes showing.

6. 5th 6th Gen....mmmm. These trucks are now getting up to 12 years old. They may seem hi-tech compared to a Bedford of course but its all very simple CANBUS stuff if you are used to trucks. Its just comparing to a old military vehicle you think its space age. The biggest issue we had with MAN being introduced into service was "it needs a laptop to fix it and what happens if i am in the middle of the field and cant fix it". This just meant we had to maintain our vehicles and train our people differently. If a truck in civvy street cannot be fixed it loses money and is as important to a company as it is to the military it cannot complete it mission. So there is redundancy built it. But you cannot buy 2020 or at the time 2007/8 Bedford 4 ton trucks. Gone were the days of pulling out a 8" adjustable and big hammer to get it going. Look inside the latest AJAX armoured vehicle and that has more computers in it than the Space Shuttle. All we have done is caught up with the civilians.

7. MAN Support. Although MAN built the trucks, Rhienmettall took over the military side of the business. So officially MAN Truck dont really have too much to do with them. They maybe reluctant to "help" too  much but you can try. Most of the parts though are common to the commerical range. Gearbox is a normal AS ZF gearbox, engine is same as on the TGL/TGM's  if i remember rightly and cab controls etc are same as commercial. Body work will be more difficult to get hold of but its easier to repair or manufacture.

Ours has now been stripped down to the chassis as we are going to put something on it in place of the load bed. It needs repainting which we will do towards the end of the year. I posted a lot of info on the ARRSE website way back when these were introduced so if anyone wants more info on these or the SV family i maybe able to help.

 

[cosrec]

You Have in a very arse about face way answered the original posters question. No as a vehicle collector you aint got a cat in hells chance of owning and running an ex army man unless you have a degree in computer science and at least £1500 in equipment and some contacts to people in the Know. One question If  i bought a 4*4 man ex Mod could i strip it out and make it run turn of key with out out paying my life savings to Rhienmettall

 

[Flofuel]

Sorry for seeing this reply weeks later. Not sure why you think owning one of these would be so hard. Its a TGL/TGM underneath the green paint. So whilst the military contract is supported by Rhienmettall you could pay MAN commercial to look at it. Remember its not a Bedford 4t so like nearly all modern (last 10-15 yrs or so) it needs some sort of diagnostic to do anything in-depth. Usually we would not see a vehicle like this released this "early" but they have too many and they are not getting used as much. Ours has fault codes which we just ignore as we know what they mean, usually down to stuff the mil have taken off it. I had a friendly engineer look at it using diagnostics and nothing to worry about.