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Scrunt & Farthing

1929 Leyland SQ2 WW8761

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This is not exactly my first post on the HMVF, but a quick intro may be useful before I post some pictures of the rusty scrap that has come my way and seems to have filled my shed, the yard-area and depleted my bank balance in various ratios.   Scrunt & Farthing is the name I have used in the past for cartoon art, some of the less tasteful and certainly un-funny pieces being uploaded to Traction Talk (which, if you don't know is rant-based forum for lonely steam-types, un-moderated and certainly less discerning than the HMVF). 

I live in Kent and completed a traction engine restoration in 2018 that took me just over 18 years.  It could have been done quicker, but I find restoration projects are best discussed in pubs, over beer, tea or any other diverting task that keeps you from the job in-hand.  I fully intend for this project to be managed in the same slip-shod, time-inefficient and frankly beer-fuelled way as the last.  If the formula works, don't mess with it.

I was on the look out for a 1920s lorry or bus, preferably on solids.  I have some history in that area, but I shall save that for another day.

Anyway, enough flirting.  The lorry is a 1929, solid-tyred SQ2 model, with 36HP petrol engine.  It has had a long hedge-based history before landing up on a lorry bound for my house.   To say it is a kit of parts would be an under-statement.  But,  as a mate of mine said the other day..."oh well, here we go again!".   We have some shuffling to do at home to make space so I think the first priority will actually be the Leyland engine.  It is going to have to wait it's turn, as "HQ, Land Command" wants a new kitchen, and has hinted at an extension.  But i think i can squeeze in a few evenings without it drawing too much attention.

And so, what does a few quid buy you.  Well firstly, thee points on your licence for driving a lorry whilst on the phone.

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Some more important bits.

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Tea diverts us as the reality sinks in.  Still, it's nearly pub time, and some of the help has to go back to their carers.

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we are not sure what these bits are, but they look important.

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Plenty of work to do on this lot...

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The next instalment may well include a start on the engine, or the strip down chassis.

 

S&F

 

 

 

 

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Edited by Scrunt & Farthing
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Is that the ex Mike Sutcliffe  Leyland?  I knew he had one many years ago but never saw it.

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Just now, radiomike7 said:

Is that the ex Mike Sutcliffe  Leyland?  I knew he had one many years ago but never saw it.

Yes, that's the one.  I think Mike rescued four, they  get a mention in his book.

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Welcome to the Leyland restorers 'club'.  Lots of early Leylands in Australia and New Zealand.  Fertile ground for these beasts.

Most are a mix of two/four/six ton being S3 variants, and larger PH2 & 4, also A type. Several later fire engines reside in NZ - Ferrymead. No SQ variants; that I know of.

A very few pre-great-war Leylands exist.  A 'U type' fire engine in Hobart. An X4.40.V, and a very early S(?) in NZ. And, what I believe to be an S2, in my shed.

Cheers

Robert

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There are a few of us in the hard rubber club in Aus and as Robert says most early Leylands here are PH 4 & 5 tonners as well as  the 2/3 ton C models. In Leyland speak SQ2 is a side type (forward control) 6 ton long goods. I see your motor has the Ricardo heads which were introduced around 1926/27 and make s life easier if you have a stuck piston. It looks like it was either converted to pneumatics with Leyland hubs or came that way new and the solids have been thrown into the deal. I am sure if you keep your Leyland Society membership up Mike will put you straight. I would suggest you do the chassis first and then you have something to hang the newly restored parts on as you go.

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Thanks for the welcome guys,  Aus and NZ still has good stuff still out there, you have the fortunate triple-whammy of a wreck-friendly climate, loads of space that stills yields treasure (See Andrew Gibbs' Lacre & Hallford trouser-stirring pics) and decent wine to wash it all down.   We have drizzle and warm beer.

Mammoth is right it is the Ricardo heads and I have the remains of about two engines (give or take).  The better of the two is stripped and is in my shed.  Importantly, I have an IPL (illustrated parts list) for the whole lorry. Robert, if you don't  have one (and I am guessing there is a lot of synergy/parts that were common)  I can post the pdf's of the IPL on here.  It runs to about 100 pages and makes an ideal gift for a bored or neglected wife to make her feel special.

My plans to start on the engine-first is an assessment of where the cost and risk lies... when i did my traction engine I tackled the boiler first, building a brand-new one.  And that was the sole focus for several years.  In the case of the lorry, I reckon the engine is where the googlies lie and I would rather get cracking on sorting that.  There is a fair bit of pattern-making and machining to do.  If the engine(s) prove to be a dead-duck or BER then I need a plan "B" before laying money into the chassis, running gear etc.   The one out-of-sequence concession I will make is to rubber the tyres and get that cost sunk, soon-as.  Solid tyres are expensive playthings, best paid for when the wife ain't looking.

S&F

 

 

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There is a saying out here ... that every day it rains is a good day!  And there's nothing wrong with warm English beer... as I discovered to 'my surprise' many years ago (sacre bleu)!  In a way i have taken the same tack, treating the engine to a rebuild early on; as a way of building project momentum.  

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"wreck friendly climate" is true of  inland Aus but near the coast and more so as you go to the humid north iron starts to recycle overnight. All of my Leyland wrecks have the front cross member rusted out. The other issue with surviving hard rubber wrecks here is that many had the rear chassis cut off so they could be used as rudimentry cranes (with solid tyres the only limit of lift was the level of your stupidity). The other issues is that, like in Britain, there was a push to get hard rubber off the road by authorities and the tyre companies of the time offered a conversion service which involved cutting off the rim and welding (wheels are cast steel not iron) on a new  American style clip on rim for pneumatics.  So standard solid wheels are rather rare. Was well done but the problem nowadays is that they used a very odd size which can be sourced from USA but at huge $$$.

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Thanks for the picture there, Dave (Foden7536).   This was the lorry when new, taken (I assume) outside the Leyland Works.

S&F

Edited by Scrunt & Farthing

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Welcome to "Leyland Restorers Club" Not many of us . I like your intro, and the time frames you work to. It is like that here at home ( in New Zealand ), there always seems to be other items that need attention or repair, or work about the orchard where seasons and climate are key factors.

As others from Australia have pointed out there were plenty of Leylands in use on this side of the world and many survived into latter use as trailers or with chopped chassis and the engines then driving sawmills , pumps and similar industrial plant. Latter life again was towards the scrap man so locating parts now is a challenge. 

The Leyland  collection here is mainly model C and A types, an RAF  and now members of the zoo models . The collection of parts is slow but  important in being able to gather enough up to warrant each rebuild. There is sufficient variation over the years in parts and models that an easy interchange is not always possible.

What is the chassis number of yours ?( Front cross member,  centre  on curve )

 Doug

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Congratulations on joining the Leyland club. You have a lot of hard but rewarding work ahead of you. I got the early lorry "bug" helping my brother with his Leyland RAF type which he bought as 8 separate lots of spares from the Keeley sale. He has left over from this project the remains of two Ricardo type engines (like yours) which may be of use to you. He has had the oil pump, water pump and camshaft for his lorry. But there's a very good crankshaft and rods, still with lots of shims. Numerous other bits too. If you are interested, I understand that you can Private Message through this forum. Not sure how, I'm a newbie and haven't tried. Good luck with your project! Doc.

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49 minutes ago, Doc said:

 If you are interested, I understand that you can Private Message through this forum. Not sure how, I'm a newbie and haven't tried. Good luck with your project! Doc.

Click on his profile then on message box. 

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On 2/27/2020 at 7:48 PM, nz2 said:

What is the chassis number of yours ?( Front cross member,  centre  on curve )

 Doug

Sometimes simple questions end up throwing up more questions than answer, Doug.  It is a reasonable question and has caused a bit of head scratching... here is what the various paperwork says on this subject:

 

Logbook:    VIN  SQ216783

Scrap of paper in file w/ vehicle;    chassis number:  16760  engine number:  26319

Physical Markings, no found as yet on chassis:  But it is a straight x-member, and not curved as some are.  also, it looks like a replacement, so that will all add to the mix of confusion.

When we get it into the shed, then we can have a proper look, but in the meantime I remain confused.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

 

On 2/29/2020 at 5:21 PM, Doc said:

.He has left over from this project the remains of two Ricardo type engines (like yours) which may be of use to you. He has had the oil pump, water pump and camshaft for his lorry. But there's a very good crankshaft and rods, still with lots of shims. Numerous other bits too. If you are interested, I understand that you can Private Message through this forum. Not sure how, I'm a newbie and haven't tried. Good luck with your project! Doc.

Hi Doc,  Yes, and thank you.  I am very interested as I am missing a great deal. I have dropped you a PM with contact details.  See the top right for location of PM Messages.  in a red ring on my image;

 

 

Edited by Scrunt & Farthing

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Attached is a photo showing the location of  chassis  and production numbers stamped on to the front cross member. In the centre of the cross member  and to the left of the image ( not shown) is the model number stamped. In this case it is a GH4

Some times a replacement cross member has been installed and an ex War Dept part has been used. The number on that is much larger and stamped along the flat top surface.

Doug

leyland chassis numbers     alt eml may 2012 048.jpg

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Mike Sutcliffe wrote an extensive article on identifying the RAF types in Leyland Journal issue no 2, and in Leyland Torque No 12 there is a chassis list covering series up to 1969. There is also often a second number on the front chassis member and that is the sales order number

So your chassis number would be correct, and at a guess December  1928 or January 1929.  Mike may be able to help with closer dating. Production of the 5/6 ton  models ceased in September 1930 - one year after production of all  the other RAF types ceased.

Sales Data Sheet for July 1928, also published in Leyland Torque, list the 6 ton goods QH2 with a choice of  pneumatic or solid tyres, the QH6 tipper with solids, and the SQ2 as a 6/7 ton goods with solid tyres.

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On 2/26/2020 at 1:43 PM, Scrunt & Farthing said:

The one out-of-sequence concession I will make is to rubber the tyres and get that cost sunk, soon-as.  Solid tyres are expensive playthings, best paid for when the wife ain't looking.

It's worth looking at polyurethane tyres as an option. We had some front tyres done by Jobel Engineering in Cornwall for our Garrett wagon. They removed the original rubber from the bands, and cast new tyres for about half the price that rubber tyres were quoted at. They've been very satisfactory on the front of the Garrett with no signs of deterioration - as you no doubt know, undertype wagons are notoriously hard on their front tyres. I believe others here (including the Gosling family) have used them too and have been satisfied.

I also strongly advocate making sure you get new tyres made on bands, rather than attached directly to the wheels. They look better, and you also have the option to swap tyres much more easily (as they can be pressed on and off).

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7 minutes ago, QL Driver said:

It's worth looking at polyurethane tyres as an option. We had some front tyres done by Jobel Engineering in Cornwall for our Garrett wagon. They removed the original rubber from the bands, and cast new tyres for about half the price that rubber tyres were quoted at. They've been very satisfactory on the front of the Garrett with no signs of deterioration - as you no doubt know, undertype wagons are notoriously hard on their front tyres. I believe others here (including the Gosling family) have used them too and have been satisfied.

I also strongly advocate making sure you get new tyres made on bands, rather than attached directly to the wheels. They look better, and you also have the option to swap tyres much more easily (as they can be pressed on and off).

I am very interested in the cast polyurethane tyres you mention Ed, can they replicate the lettering on the edge of the tyre (make, size etc) as I think this adds to the originality of the vehicle. On Dave Eves recreation of the Fowler B6 Showman’s “Onward” he has got “Macintosh Endless Rubber” (or something similar) written on the sidewall as per the original, speaking to him he achieved this by cutting the letter out and glueing them onto the spun on rubbers, I must admit the end result is very good.

Regards

David

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The way that they are made (as I understand it) is that a ring of the approx OD required is rolled, and the band is set concentrically within it. The polyurethane is then poured into the resulting gap and left to cure. The tyre is then put in a lathe and turned to the desired profile.

Lettering is certainly something that is missing from almost all new tyres (I think the only company that does them with lettering is Coker Tire in Tennessee.  I'll have a chat with my polymers materials engineering friends at work and I'll see if I can find something out about suitable adhesives to bond to a polyurethane. The thing I'm always a bit wary of is that if you use the tyres frequently, then I'd expect that the lettering could start to fall off.

tyre1.jpg

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Interesting points on the use of PU polymer.  There have been a couple of local chaps have gone down this route.   I think i heard the costs were about half that of rubber.

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Posted (edited)

The general wisdom amongst those that know about these things is that gear boxes are best not stored under water.  Nor so engines.  Having recovered the remains of my lorry three weeks ago (as documented in a previous thrilling instalment), it has not stopped raining since. 

My big shed has water coming out of the ground and flooding the yard area in front.   Thus, it seemed prudent to make the most of break in the weather and before pub-time move the gear box and the remains of engines into the other shed that serves as our m/c shop.

The gearbox outer casing does not look too bad, but the support arms are rusted pretty severely.    The first job is going to be to get the gearbox covers off and see what sort problems lay in store for us.  The logic being, that if things are not too bad we can button it up with some protective lube oil spread about, and not spend too much time worrying about it until we  need it.   Alternatively, if things look grim we can add it to the plan to get it sorted and schedule it in accordingly

 

There is not a lot of room to manoeuvre the forklift inside the workshop, as my bearded assistant pointed out; we have run out of shed!

 

 

I have, more or less the remains of about 1.5 engines, although engine(s) would be a generous description.   The plan-of-the-day was simply to get everything in the shed and thus in the dry.  One of the engines still had a cylinder (head) attached and so this had to come off before it came inside.    

We assumed this would be a simple case of unbolting and lifting the head.  Leaving aside forty odd years of corrosion it should still have moved reasonably easily but was stuck fast.  After some head-scratching we reckoned the cam-followers are pressed into the alu crank housing causing the assembly to be stuck fast.

 

A spin over and some love applied with a punch and a copper hammer and the cam followers shifted enough to allow the head to move, and eventually off completely.  In the case of this engine unit, the followers appear to be pressed into the alu with clearance in the cylinder.  I am not convinced this is the case with the other unit I have.  You can see the state of the unit from photos.

 

 

And with the thought of warm bar maids and cold beers calling, we completed this week’s adventures.   Diesel has been liberally applied to all nuts that will be coming off soon.  I am reluctant to use my usual technique of heat due to the proximity of alu, but we may have to revisit that in some cases.

Finally, thanks to Doc for your PM and outstanding contact which I think will help this project considerably.

S&F

 

Edited by Scrunt & Farthing
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Posted (edited)

Never one to pass up the chance for a double-entendre, after supper I announced I was going to "get em off". I received the usual look of pity from my family who quickly returned their attentions to variously: a missing chicken; Katy Perry's forthcoming baby and as many other distractions as they could muster to spoil my enthusiasm for taking a gearbox apart and seeing what laid under those covers.  
But they underestimate me.   The cover studs and nuts have been liberally covered with diesel and yielded fairly easily.   A couple of sharpened fox wedges either side (partly in the hope of saving the gasket) and we were in.  
The initial assessment is that a) at least there is oil and not water in there; b) the output shaft has about half and inch off "lift" in it so the bearing must be shot. and c) at least one of the gears (I assume to be the third speed) has got fairly "biffed" edges.    We had hope to spin the shafts over but the assembly would not turn over,  considering the state of the bearing this is to be expected.

 

 

 

And so, a reasonably successful night (unless you happen to be the missing chicken).  I need to get the cover off of the output shaft and look at the bearing and hope we can see if that is easily remedied.  I would also like to get some basic movement in the shafts an sliding levers.

If anyone has a pic of the clutch stop I would like to see them as this is all missing.

S&F

Edited by Scrunt & Farthing
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Posted (edited)

Owning lorries, or steam engines - or whatever,  is not about the driving for me, it is about the restoration; the challenge of fixing of something that most sensible people would give up on.  And so, whilst my fellow man went off in pursuit of toilet rolls, tinned beans and Spam I decided to get the crankshaft damper and the flywheel off the more knackered of the two crankshaft cases I have.  They had to come to come off in one piece as the better crankcase does not have a flywheel, nor crankshaft damper.  Previous attempts with my simple gear puller had failed and so something needed to be made.  eBay yielded an 8 ton Sykes Pickvant hydraulic ram... it just needed s strong-back making and some puller arms.   The puller arms we had in stock from a previous similar job, so it was half hour on the radial arm drill to make the strong-back.

 

The strong back is from a bit of scrap channel section.  The ram is held in place with a Sykes-P backnut held in place with yoke clamps cut on the bandsaw.  You can just see the screws for the yoke clamps.

The whole assembly is then set up of the crankshaft damper.

 

The whole lot has been soaking in Diesel for a week or two, whilst under pressure from my old gear puller.  While this was under load, it was time for the flywheel to get some attention.

 

 

A simple strong-back puller for the flywheel, once the nuts were off.

 

It took a bit of work, but knocking the screws back and there was a loud retort and the fywheel yielded and was quickly off.

Now that was the easy bit.  Back to the crankshaft damper.  8 tons of preload and it was still not shifting so some percussion was the order of the day.... this shows where it landed after a bit of percussion to the back of the arms... i reckon it jumped 30 inches when it finally yielded.   I should point out the steam shed does not normally look this untidy but it had flooded four times this year, thus far.  In the previous twelve year it has never flooded.  Things are changing, and that is not good.

 

And that was it, all bits on the floor.  Normally, on a Saturday we celebrate in the traditional manner at the Red Lion PH.  But current circumstance dictate otherwise.

The crankshaft damper is shagged, I would be interested if anyone has made a crankshaft damper or used a modern one to replace an old one.  This is a job for the future but one that needs sorting.

 

 

Edited by Scrunt & Farthing
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Evening.

Funny how most things yield when you show them the hydraulic puller.

Pretty sure the part you require is on one of my brother's spare engines. Once movement restrictions have been relaxed you'll be able to come see for yourself.

Was tidying my desk at work this week in preparation for "working from home" and stumbled across the list of new felt seals I had made for David's lorry. So, when the time comes, give me a shout and I can send you the list and put you on to the company that made them, or I can get them for you.

Regards

Doc (Andy)

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