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DFC1943Fl.Lt.

Petrol Engines Ban.

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Just a thought but in 15 years time, or so they say all ' Diesel and Petrol engine ' vehicle's will be banned from our roads. My question is what will happen to all our military vehicles. Will this mean the end of our rallies to shows and the enjoyment of showing them off to the general public. Will we have to transport the vehicles everywhere. Will there be a concession brought in to allow us to still drive the MV's on the road. If not, there will be an awful lot of military vehicles for sale as I for one could most likely not afford the cost of transporting mine to shows and the price of these MV's could plummet as people try to get shot of them before the crunch day arrives. This could all be hysteria on my part but will be interesting to here the thoughts of fellow owners on the forum.      

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Your last point Ian about lobbyists is something that has crossed my mind too.

I have been surprised that in recent years at some of the bigger shows around the country we have not seen some placard waving going on at the gate with regard to how we are destroying the planet in the name of entertainment or some other equally misguiding notion when the real problem lies with expanding fossil fuel power generation in other countries and multi national companies who see no return in investing in alternative transport technologies. 

This is probably starting to stray into the political arena which has no part on a forum like this so I'll call it a day on this particular line of thought.

Pete

Edited by Pete Ashby
missing word

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1 hour ago, Pete Ashby said:

Having just re read this thread I'm aware that I have gone off on something of a tangent from the original question posed by DFC1943Fl Lt which was as follows:

 My question is what will happen to all our military vehicles. Will this mean the end of our rallies to shows and the enjoyment of showing them off to the general public. Will we have to transport the vehicles everywhere. Will there be a concession brought in to allow us to still drive the MV's on the road. If not, there will be an awful lot of military vehicles for sale 

Fair question and one that is more complex to answer than at first glance I think having thought about it a bit I'll give my perspective bearing in mind it is from observations and information available at this point in time,  as others have noted the situation is now moving faster than anticipated.

So to break your question down into digestible chunks :

My question is what will happen to all our military vehicles?, I'm not sure,  it is wholly dependent on the individuals motivation for owning them I suspect.  People come in all shapes and sizes and so too are the reasons for owning and collecting MV's,  is it  a social thing?  is it the historical aspect?  could it be a family connection?  or is it just for the pleasure of driving them or for the majority I suspect  a combination of all those factors. So it will depend on the individuals primary motivation as to whether they sell up at a knock down price  and move onto to something new or stick with it.

Will this mean the end of our rallies to shows and the enjoyment of showing them off to the general public? Will there be a concession brought in to allow us to still drive the MV's on the road. .  The point to bear in mind here is this impacts on all forms of classic and vintage road  transport that uses the internal combustion engine it's not just us in the MV world it's the rows of shiny cars, vintage tractors, classic commercials and the motor bikes.  Taken at face value the answer would have to be... 'yes that's it boys pack up and go home'.....  but I think the movement as a whole is large enough to warrant small scale commercial interest in supplying fuel  although for various reasons not necessarily in it's current form.  Vintage transport shows still seem as popular with the ice cream licking public as ever they were so I would hope any Government would  not take the unpopular step of turning it's back on this countries motoring history, although we live in strange time politically and perhaps the public would just slump onto the sofa and reach for the game boy or mobile phone instead. 

Will we have to transport the vehicles everywhere? That predisposes that you have an electric transport vehicle able to carry them which currently (pun not intended ) does not exist.

If not, there will be an awful lot of military vehicles for sale , Yes and no,  back really to my point at the top of this answer to you where I pose the question about the individuals motivation some will sell and move on others will convert to other forms of fuel and still others will shut the doors on their workshops and go in occasionally to sit in their beloved vehicle and smell the smells of canvas, oil  and rubber and dream of the good old days.  Will it impact the market values probably I think is the answer to that one,  does it matter? I suppose it does if your motivation is just to keep it as an appreciating asset.

So there you go that's my take after 47 years of collecting and restoring MV's for what it's worth.  A good thought provoking question that will effect younger collectors significantly and to which I don't think there are any definite answers currently, which neatly ties in with some of the other discussion I and several others have had at the expense of your original question. 

Pete

 

Yes we have strayed from the point, it was a simple question but there are a whole range of things that will affect the future once you get into how we can keep them running and that unfortunately includes politics.

As for show, I think there will be less and smaller in the future, on any given weekend in the summer there are hundreds and several clash badly, but it is what it is, I would personally only exhibit at more local ones, down to cost and time.

Probably a lot of the people who own something just as an investment with no historical, family or emotional attachment will disappear from the "hobby" that may be good? not sure. Those of us who love them will keep then weather we can use them or not.

Transport to shows, well electric heavy goods are dam close already. again here we can go into the electric V hydrogen debate, also why not fit a nice new electric drive from a bus to your truck. there is a perfect unit that would drop right in the middle pair of bevel boxes on any Alvis 6 wheeler right now. and the tech is moving fast, all the parts we need will be available 2nd hand in 10 years from breakers yards, we just need to learn electronics and control systems.

awful lot of military vehicles for sale? well the ones no one want will end up in the scrap pile, the rest will be cheaper for idiots like me who already have too many!

Our younger collectors will probably come into the hobby thinking nothing of stripping a crashed Tesla and using the parts in another vehicle, the same as our grandfathers did with steam and we do with those dam new fangled internal combustion engines.

The hobby won't die it will just change.

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20 hours ago, SirLanceUK said:

I was reading articles about this another issue that needs to be overcome is the power needed to drive heavier vehicles like buses. Batteries at the moment cant push a loaded bus up hill so the current answer is Hybrid.

So will the same be true for HGV's... My point is that Diesel is still going to be needed..

Petrol for me might be harder, but I will be 85 so might be letting others drive me round and letting them worry about it

There are electric HGV solutions available... prices for the engine and battery conversion start at 250k gbp.

http://www.emoss.nl/en/electric-vehicles/

They will push a loaded HGV around at decent speeds.

Tim

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On 2/5/2020 at 7:52 AM, DFC1943Fl.Lt. said:

Just a thought but in 15 years time, or so they say all ' Diesel and Petrol engine ' vehicle's will be banned from our roads. My question is what will happen to all our military vehicles. Will this mean the end of our rallies to shows and the enjoyment of showing them off to the general public. Will we have to transport the vehicles everywhere. Will there be a concession brought in to allow us to still drive the MV's on the road. If not, there will be an awful lot of military vehicles for sale as I for one could most likely not afford the cost of transporting mine to shows and the price of these MV's could plummet as people try to get shot of them before the crunch day arrives. This could all be hysteria on my part but will be interesting to here the thoughts of fellow owners on the forum.      

The only thing threatening the continued use of MVs is the availability of suitable fuel, the ban only applies to new cars ( and note "cars", not "vehicles").  I don't see it being a problem for years to come.  A more interesting problem might be the ability to take a driving test when all other vehicles are autonomous.

Andy

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28 minutes ago, andym said:

The only thing threatening the continued use of MVs is the availability of suitable fuel, the ban only applies to new cars ( and note "cars", not "vehicles").  I don't see it being a problem for years to come.  A more interesting problem might be the ability to take a driving test when all other vehicles are autonomous.

Andy

I shudder to think of autonomous motorcycles 🤔

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55 minutes ago, Richard Farrant said:

I shudder to think of autonomous motorcycles 🤔

Could be interesting indeed, but I can see a time when no-one will need to take a conventional driving test.  What then happens about those driving non-autonomous vehicles?

Andy

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9 hours ago, johann morris said:

I don't know where you are in the world but here in Wales every petrol station still sells liquid fuel and I can't think of one that has stopped in the 30 years that I have lived here.

One of my wife's friends lectures at uni on such issues and when I have conversations with her, she is totally unable to explain how, it really frustrates her that unlike her students I will not accept the " it's something that they will have to work out" answer. What car dose she drive, a diesel and why, because the distance that she has to travel an ev would not be appropriate. There are so many questions that have to be answered, so many problems that have to be solved and the easiest of those is who is going to pay, bend over we are just about to be shafted.

I presently live Weirddale  (I suppose better described as both upper & mid.),  although I suppose I am more Teesdale  mid. / Gaunless Valley. I have property(s).  From memory  I could type you a whole list of village names in these upper valley where there was once a filling station within the village and in many cases another filling stations locally not within the village , sometimes among fields or a road junction.  Since about 1980 - these filling stations have almost all closed , often the garage services folded , often they were franchise for new car sales, today - many have a residence built upon .  Previous 40 years , petrol/DERV sales have moved to the new supermarkets.    It is the same through Durham to the east coast, all Northumberland , across to Cumbria west coast , North Yorks Pennines. 

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Almost every evening when the BBC national & local  (NE & Cumbria) news is on , my wife requests that I leave the room for  'chuntering'  about the NON-news (propaganda) content.  This evening , there was a "campaign report" for the benefit of a firm based at what was known as ICI Wilton Works - their plant is idle due to lack of demand for Bio-Ethanol (in this case produced from grain).  The commenturd  stated that if the government forced through a rise from 5% to 10% content within 'petrol'  (E5 to E10)  then that would remove the equivalent of  700,000  cars from the public highway .   MV enthusiasts + all other motoring enthusiasts have little clout in comparison to such power groups of private enterprise that demand and obtain free airing of the way they see it, on the state regulated news that I have to pay a license for  !

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On 2/7/2020 at 11:22 PM, ruxy said:

Almost every evening when the BBC national & local  (NE & Cumbria) news is on , my wife requests that I leave the room for  'chuntering'  about the NON-news (propaganda) content.  This evening , there was a "campaign report" for the benefit of a firm based at what was known as ICI Wilton Works - their plant is idle due to lack of demand for Bio-Ethanol (in this case produced from grain).  The commenturd  stated that if the government forced through a rise from 5% to 10% content within 'petrol'  (E5 to E10)  then that would remove the equivalent of  700,000  cars from the public highway .   MV enthusiasts + all other motoring enthusiasts have little clout in comparison to such power groups of private enterprise that demand and obtain free airing of the way they see it, on the state regulated news that I have to pay a license for  !

so are you against the Bio Ethanol or for it? I cant quite tell from the post. 

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Hi

Back to the original question how can we keep our MVs running particularly the WWII gasoline powered?  For years I have suspected with the changes in gasoline we will reach a point where engines with carbs will simply not be practical.  All ready in the US the Ethanol gas has caused many problems (which is a different topic) but the result is going to make it more of a problem to keep running.

So what do I plan to do, answer LNG or propane the converstion units are out there, lots of forklifts us them.  The only thing will be where do we put the tanks?

Cheers Phil

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1 hour ago, CMP-Phil said:

So what do I plan to do, answer LNG or propane

DIY removal of Ethanol from petrol? 

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6 hours ago, Ashcollection said:

so are you against the Bio Ethanol or for it? I cant quite tell from the post. 

Search out my posts within last year , ref.   Walker of Distillers Co.   Cleveland Discol etc.   

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1 hour ago, CMP-Phil said:

Hi

Back to the original question how can we keep our MVs running particularly the WWII gasoline powered?  For years I have suspected with the changes in gasoline we will reach a point where engines with carbs will simply not be practical.  All ready in the US the Ethanol gas has caused many problems (which is a different topic) but the result is going to make it more of a problem to keep running.

So what do I plan to do, answer LNG or propane the converstion units are out there, lots of forklifts us them.  The only thing will be where do we put the tanks?

Cheers Phil

I had a  Landi Hartog  (quality)   IIRC off a Hyster FLT with a Teledyne Continental Engine , first on a "Auntie" Rover  with cylinder frame off counterweight bolted in boot  LoL   then better installed on a S3 Land Rover (this was late 1970's).   Climax (Coventry)  then part of Leyland Special Products group gassed the  Land Rover S3  3mb  , then later Climax-Kalmar , then Kalmar used the same but  5mb pet. engine for gassing. No problems at all , however duration may have showed because IIRC these FLT engines were with a different cam more suitable for bombing up/down warehouses than motorways..

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1 hour ago, ruxy said:

I had a  Landi Hartog  (quality)   IIRC off a Hyster FLT with a Teledyne Continental Engine , first on a "Auntie" Rover  with cylinder frame off counterweight bolted in boot  LoL   then better installed on a S3 Land Rover (this was late 1970's).   Climax (Coventry)  then part of Leyland Special Products group gassed the  Land Rover S3  3mb  , then later Climax-Kalmar , then Kalmar used the same but  5mb pet. engine for gassing. No problems at all , however duration may have showed because IIRC these FLT engines were with a different cam more suitable for bombing up/down warehouses than motorways..

I ran an LPG powered Sherpa van for about 5 years, it we previously owned by West Yorkshire council who converted all their petrol engined vehicles to LPG to stop fuel theft. My only problem was the lack of LPG pumps in the wilds of North Yorkshire, this was finally solved when I had a hose made up to fill the van tank from our LPG heating tank! 

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On 2/7/2020 at 5:56 PM, Richard Farrant said:

I shudder to think of autonomous motorcycles 🤔

I'm sure Elon could knock you one up overnight...

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1 hour ago, johnwardle said:

I ran an LPG powered Sherpa van for about 5 years, it we previously owned by West Yorkshire council who converted all their petrol engined vehicles to LPG to stop fuel theft. My only problem was the lack of LPG pumps in the wilds of North Yorkshire, this was finally solved when I had a hose made up to fill the van tank from our LPG heating tank! 

That must have been cheap motoring from a bulk tank  ?

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Have l misunderstood this l thought the ban applied  only to vehicle made after that date when ever. So are they going to stop the use of all vehicles using  petrol and diesel after that date as there will be still thousands in use to me it looks like yet another ill thought out idea no clear policy  just my thoughts

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2 hours ago, wally dugan said:

Have l misunderstood this l thought the ban applied  only to vehicle made after that date when ever. So are they going to stop the use of all vehicles using  petrol and diesel after that date as there will be still thousands in use to me it looks like yet another ill thought out idea no clear policy  just my thoughts

No I think your correct Wally but it means the requirement for petrol/ diesel will decline steadily towards that point then  fall away rapidly as older cars are scraped,  the result will be a situation where it quickly becomes commercially uneconomic to produce carbon fuels. 

Pete

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2 hours ago, wally dugan said:

Have l misunderstood this l thought the ban applied  only to vehicle made after that date when ever. So are they going to stop the use of all vehicles using  petrol and diesel after that date as there will be still thousands in use to me it looks like yet another ill thought out idea no clear policy  just my thoughts

Yes, I agree but as others have already fleshed out more - the indeterminate point will arrive in the non too distant future , when liquid diesel and petrol dispensing pumps at larger filling stations. They are going to first reduce the number of pumps to maintain on the forecourt, then you will be left with a few remote locations of "specialist" vendors from pumps. . Such fuel sales will be totally uneconomic because almost all cars are by then battery electric (the sales of which are accelerating).  At this point in time there will be no liquid pumps to mention within the more rural hinterland.   My stated view is that this will happen far sooner than many consider.  Also what will speed up battery electric is the youth of today (keep up with the latest)  and be up to date - think iPhone as opposed to a Nokia of 20 years ago, or a concrete block on a leather shoulder strap of early 1980's.  They will also wish to have access to town / city centre. Others seem to agree with self but it will happen over a much longer time scale.

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I have driven Hydrogen buses they were trialled by First North London. The Green credentials were used as part of London's Olympic bid,  Perfectly easy to drive , reliable and did the job.  Biggest problem was the infrastructure for fuelling, that had to be built. Volvo also trialled an Rechargable bus around Dartford last year. Clever bit of kit. There was a charging station at Greenhithe station. Each vehicle did about a 12 mile circuit. As it appraoched the station a RC system started the geneartor . Bus drove under a canatliver that lowered and charged the vehicle in about 5 minutes. Worked reasonabaly well, trouble was charger was unique and an eye watering cost. Next stage was due to test the vehicle at Heathrow airport where ground power circuit would be used to charge the beast.

I now own a 1999 V8 Discovery 2 on LPG. Current cost of LPG 64 p per litre. Costs more to half fill the petrol tank, 8 gallons than to half fill the LPG. Two tanks 30 and 50 giving nominal 70 litres. My local expert tells me expect to get 56 in.

It is an old 1999 coversion , but and most important for insurance, is listed on the Go Green Autogas web site. Drawbacks , slow to fill, but I only have one nearby fill point so may be that. I intend to alter pipe on filler which may improve matters. Easy to work on the sytem.  NGK LPG plugs £18 each, and I have EIGHT of them!!! So *** that! Standard NGK PFR6N-11 platinum plugs  run fine. They aren't cheap but taking the old ones out, I think they have never been changed. Performance, you don't notice which fuel you are on, only the little light tells you. Range, still working on that, but I'm guessing you get about 2/3 of the milage than on petrol.

Engine has done about 125,000

Go Coach has also trialled an Optare electric bus around Sevenoaks, cheap to run about £13 a day, bastard to keep going. Optare also recently sent an electric decker to Jersey to try. That wa sa total failure. 

So on balance , I'd go for gas. Easy to transport and store , unlike elecktrickery, gas burning vehicles are old technology, gasifiers were used in Sweden and during both World Wars. Most petrol engines can be converted to run on them, and Disiel but you have to dial the pump back about 30% and if you run out of gas you lose tha 30% on Disiel. 

Fortunatley, I have near by a man called Neil at Medway Dual Fuel, who is also an ex Land Rover man. Anyone intrested I can send contact details or go to his website. The guy does know his gas.

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I lost track of gas power ,  ISTR  approx.  1998 to 2005  car manufacturers were offering dual fuel gas/petrol Ex-Works.  Ford or Vauxhall were £ price matching to diesel & the other was £200 extra on list for diesel.

Most of the DIY gas conversion kits were of Italian manufacture (seemed reasonable quality and tanks CE certified) , two garages near me were doing a very tidy installation (and selling gas).    Then there was some pressure from some trade organization squealing to the gov. that there should only be licensed  installers with a scheme similar to Corgi  -  then it all seamed to die a death  ?    Possibly petrol had got £ lots cheaper   LoL

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You hear/read  'stories' of E5 attack on best quality (marked) fuel hose ,  odd stories of E5 attack on carburettor die-castings  - zinc / mazak metal   ?

The VW Beetle ISTR had no problem in such as Brazil with very high ethanol content.   Possibly they just fitted a Chinese copy carb that was made of suitable metal, IIRC front to rear there was only a few inch of rubber petrol hose , the line through chassis being Bundy.

Now South America  are using E100   and I can't see them going off it.   I understand best efficiency for conversion is human/animal quality grain ,  but understand any compost gunge is suitable for distilling- just need to process on a larger scale to obtain a gallon.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1092180_driving-entirely-on-ethanol-brazils-volkswagen-gol-flex-fuel-vehicle

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7 hours ago, ruxy said:

I lost track of gas power ,  ISTR  approx.  1998 to 2005  car manufacturers were offering dual fuel gas/petrol Ex-Works.  Ford or Vauxhall were £ price matching to diesel & the other was £200 extra on list for diesel.

Most of the DIY gas conversion kits were of Italian manufacture (seemed reasonable quality and tanks CE certified) , two garages near me were doing a very tidy installation (and selling gas).    Then there was some pressure from some trade organization squealing to the gov. that there should only be licensed  installers with a scheme similar to Corgi  -  then it all seamed to die a death  ?    Possibly petrol had got £ lots cheaper   LoL

I don't know if mine was ex works or converted later. Will try to find out. In Ireland most cars seem to run on gas. Funnily enough Morrison's supermarkets around Kent to sell gas. A local golf club has all it's buggies on gas as the fuel is easier to store as opposed to petrol.  I know somone who runs an Onan generator of a straight Propane bottle by having a simple burner ring    attached to the top of the carb.

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