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Karrier WDS

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Not an appraisal of the whole fleet, Doc, but a comment on Karriers. And only Karriers because 48 DSC had 15 with broken chassis. Actually it was 1916, but I hit the wrong button and got 15. I suspect it was an example used to inform the War Office that the lack of available spare parts was unacceptable as much as anything. Karriers were also a minority make, so may also been an attempt to not keep buying them.

It's not from a report either, it is the War Diary of the Director of Transport, available from Kew. WO 95/71.

Not too much about the lorries themselves but more about the organisation.

 

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On 1/24/2020 at 9:08 AM, Roy Larkin said:

Not an appraisal of the whole fleet, Doc, but a comment on Karriers. And only Karriers because 48 DSC had 15 with broken chassis. Actually it was 1916, but I hit the wrong button and got 15. I suspect it was an example used to inform the War Office that the lack of available spare parts was unacceptable as much as anything. Karriers were also a minority make, so may also been an attempt to not keep buying them.

It's not from a report either, it is the War Diary of the Director of Transport, available from Kew. WO 95/71.

Not too much about the lorries themselves but more about the organisation.

 

Roy,

Thank-you for the clarification. 

Regards

Doc

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Following the broken chassis discussions I spent some time with my photocopy spare part list to see if there was evidence that Clayton and Co. recognised this problem and sought to remedy it.

The book, which has neither date nor revision number, covers chassis numbers from 1000 to 2001 onwards.

Documented changes were made as follows:

1079    Gearbox modifications especially to strengthen the lay-shaft, also improvements to the rear coupling and its attachment.

1104    Bonnet catches

1204    Cardan shaft and torque tube changes

1208    Rear axle spring seat and bush

1326    Steering ball-joint adjustment strengthening and gearbox oil filler change

1328    Front and rear mudguard brackets

1351    Dashboard support brackets and related parts

1476    Steering box casing (also requiring changes to the bonnet)

1501    Fuel filter change from Enots to one of their own manufacture

1651    Engine mounts. Off-side is rigidly bolted to the chassis via spacer blocks. Near-side mounts changed to introduce flexibility. Front and rear mounts discontinued, replaced by an in-board support plate with centrally mounted pivot point and associated chassis-mounted bracket.

One curiosity about this change is that there is only one part number for the near-side chassis rail (or "Longitudinal Runner" in Clayton nomenclature) - 9302. Unchanged off-side is 9303. Out of sequence is the Rear Cross Member 10336, but again no earlier number for this part. I wonder why issue control for chassis part numbers was treated differently to other parts. Perhaps replacement near-side chassis rails were drilled for both engine mounting styles. Alternatively, if a new chassis was supplied, perhaps Clayton and Co. insisted that the near-side engine mounting was upgraded at the same time. Another curiosity: different chassis lengths are not mentioned in the parts list when it is clear that both a short and long version were produced. Perhaps the long chassis was introduced at some point after no. 2001?

1726    Clutch operating bridle and clutch stop nut

2001    Rear axle first reduction shaft and bearings

There are also proposed changes to the cooling fan, pulley, spindle and bearings but with no cut-in number.

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I would be very surprised if Clayton supplied any chassis rails as spare parts. They would have been simply repaired by the ASC or the vehicle scrapped if beyond repair. 

 

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Greasers

The steel bodies of greasers bearing the stamp "KARR" WDS 11506 remained in a few locations: one rear wheel hub, king pins and one spring saddle. Three out of four bearing the part number 11179 remained on the short coupling between the gearbox and prop shaft. The former were threaded 1/2"BSF, the latter 5/8"BSF with a long shank on account of the thickness of the coupling.

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Original greaser bodies

The body thread was 1.1/2" x 16 tpi whit form in both cases.

Fortunately I was able to source a tap and  die of this thread form.

I have made three new steel bodies and ten new brass caps.

Spring shackle pins and track rod pins are one piece with their greaser body. These are an odd thread. 16 tpi whit form but measuring 0.9" across the crests of the threads. The eagle-eyed amongst you will have spotted the two tea chests strapped to the chassis on its arrival. One of the items of treasure contained within was a worn spring shackle pin. I milled flats across the threads in an attempt to make a crude tap. A piece of brass was put up in the lathe, faced and bored. Whilst I did succeed in cutting a thread with my home-made tap, it was hard work, so I dug deep and ordered custom made taps from Avon Tap and Die. These made short work of the required 16 new caps.

Most other locations were devoid of greasers. The parts book states these were Rotherhams No. 2 Again the stem thread is 1/2" BSF but the bodies are M24x1.25 for which taps and dies were again available. I turned a batch of forty of these after 5 pm on the Harrison M300 in our R&D machine shop at work. Several nights work, I hasten to add.

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Taps and die as described above

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New and old steel bodies, new brass caps.

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Reproduction Rotherhams No 2 greasers

 

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This photo is on the wall in our production office at work so I had to scrounge a copy! 99% sure it is a Karrier.

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Steve  :)

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Interesting trailer, with double turntables, steers both ends !

Taken outside the Eagle Trailer works too.

Edited by Tomo.T
More detail observed

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On 1/25/2020 at 11:19 AM, Doc said:

Another curiosity: different chassis lengths are not mentioned in the parts list when it is clear that both a short and long version were produced. Perhaps the long chassis was introduced at some point after no. 2001?

The catalogue I have only quotes 1 length chassis for the WDS: from starting handle to towing hooks overall - 20ft 10in.

Of interest also is an insert dated 18 June 2019:

The following special features hitherto fitted to this chassis to conform to the War Department's Subsidy Specification will no longer be supplied:-

Water cooling system for footbrake drum; spare oil tank on dash; sprags; towing hooks; bolster brackets; head lamp generator and head lamp brackets; driving mirror; rear mudguard stays.

The list of special fittings and accessories will therefore now be as follows:-

Centrifugal governor; radiator guard of stout steel tube, supported by steel brackets from the main frame members and fitted in front of radiator; 4 steel mudguards, stays to front guards only; 2 paraffin side lamps and brackets; 1 paraffin tail lamp and bracket; 1 horn.

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Amazing what turns up... the inserted list describes all the significant differences (apart from chassis length) between my lorry and the description in "The Automobile Engineer". 20ft. 10in. is essentially the same measurement as the 21ft. quoted in the aforementioned publication. IMG_0113.thumb.JPG.0233baecd62c1e8158a68e51d0278c70.JPG

General Arrangement drawing from The Automobile Engineer September, 1916.

A last minute trip to Suffolk this weekend and a bit of a rummage around, here's a couple of images of the logbook.

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IMG_2925.thumb.JPG.d9de24ce917546fdaba4cf954f224ade.JPGMore rusty tea-chest treasure: full set of bonnet catches.

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IMG_2927.thumb.JPG.4022adc4e2f723874cb3e8de97430158.JPGA little bit of heat freed everything off.

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Springs past their best. Replacements sourced from Flexo Springs at Kingswood.

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Four new shoulder bolts required. Brass nuts reused.

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Painting... in my kitchen in Bristol

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One more job off the list.

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What a nice find. Filing them out would have been a bit of a chore!

Steve  :)

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Front bonnet support.

More treasure from the tea chest: most of the original bonnet support one original bracket with a rusty piece of the same angle iron riveted on. Also present, a reproduction angle iron bonnet support welded to two 1/4" thick brackets.

After a little study it was clear that neither the new support nor the brackets were the same shape as the old original.

This is one of those situations where attitudes to restoration have changed since the 1970s - I looked at the rusty remains and concluded that they could be repaired.

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One side complete enabling measurements to be taken.

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New metal cut and welded into position. Just the rivet holes to drill.

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Original and pair of new laser cut brackets for comparison.

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In top coat. Bolted to timber support to aid handling while painting.

 

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The tea-chests keep on giving!

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The remains of the flexible hose that connected from the engine to the Rotherhams oil pressure tell-tale on the dashboard, together with my recreation (using the original nuts).

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All is not as it seems: the outer containment is spiral wound conduit. Hidden inside is a length of ptfe tubing pressed onto brass barbs. The whole assembly was soldered together. As I neglected to take photographs of the work in progress I have included a section view generated in 3d cad.

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The socket coupling between the tell-tale and the first elbow has right hand thread at one end, left hand thread at the other. Union can be tightened without torque transmission to the hose. Ingenious.

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I really appreciate everyone on the HTMF site for sharing their photos,  techniques, and comments on the forum.  They're a real eye opener to those of us who have never had the experience of reconstructing anything -- never mind a vehicle.   The added historical aspect itself is a huge plus.

 

Bosun Al

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9 hours ago, Great War truck said:

Have you gone through everything in the tea chests now? Is there anything that is awaiting identification?

All accounted for. Tea chests contained as follows:

  • Original headlamp brackets, fabricated side light brackets, one original rear mudguard bracket 
  • New-cast aluminium bonnet supports for mounting on the bulkhead plus patterns
  • Spare radiator side casting plus the pattern
  • Plug lead conduit rusty remains including the brackets
  • Valve chest covers - enough metal to make one out of the two
  • Fan shroud remains 
  • Torque tube ball joint spun brass cover (cracked / broken - repairable?)
  • Numerous linkage pins and old nuts and bolts from which grover washers have been recovered
  • Some spare brake linkage parts.

In addition, I have the remains of the engine under-pan and original front and rear mudguards, suitable for patterns. Will endeavour to take photographs next time I'm back East. Strangely I have no front mudguard brackets. They were on the lorry when discovered, but haven't survived. 

 

 

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Driveshaft and gearbox removal

This started as an exercise to free off the gearbox. First the brake callipers and their operating linkage were removed. Next the flexible couplings of the input driveshaft were dismantled along with the short coupling and part of the Hooke's joint of the tail shaft. Removal of the gearbox lid revealed the internals to be rust free and covered in thick black oil. Liberal application of straight 30 from an oil can soon had the change-speed gears sliding on their splines. Input and output shafts were also soon free, if a little tight on the oil seal felts. Careful inspection revealed no damaged teeth on any gears.

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The retaining bolts were withdrawn and the change-speed rods uncoupled in preparation for the removal of the gearbox. The oil filler neck was also unbolted to avoid it accidentally coming into contact with the chassis rail, before the gearbox was lifted out of its cradle.IMG_3008.thumb.JPG.d3ef16bac69c2d62317649518998ed4d.JPG

Once safely on the ground, attention turned to the brake drum. This required a bit of persuasion before it could be withdrawn. Not many things argue with the big hydraulic puller.

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8 hours ago, 8_10 Brass Cleaner said:

Is that a Barford & Perkins motor roller behind?

 

Well spotted! 1923 J type.

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Some more pictures from late spring 2019...

The blue paint applied by the previous owners whilst not particularly attractive has kept a reasonable check on corrosion.

Many parts only required paraffin washing, rubbing down and re-painting. Some steel parts had rust coming through. These were generally cleaned up with an angle grinder and cup brush before being treated with a phosphate conversion coating prior to painting.

A few parts required some remedial work. Below is the "Foot brake shoe stop bracket" in Clayton nomenclature. It bridges the brake caliper pivots  also the setscrews that adjust the  rest position of the calipers bear against this part. It is clear that part of this casting is broken away. Fortunately it is cast steel, so an over-size  repair piece was welded on and milled to shape.

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Now repaired and painted. Sorry for the quality of the picture...

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Small parts in the paint shop

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Here you will see not only transmission brake and drive shaft parts but also gear selectors, linkage, gear lever and handbrake lever.

 

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On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2020 at 7:09 AM, Doc said:

Well spotted! 1923 J type.

Ah, is that a tank cooled model?

A friend om mine has a 1919 model, I believe a H. With a 2JO Dorman in it.

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Off topic... but no, it's radiator cooled. Two tanks at the rear: the larger one was for water for sprinkling the rolls, the smaller one was for fuel storage. Paraffin could be transferred from here to the much smaller running tank close to the engine.

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Wet and windy in Bristol; "staying indoors" weather. Which gives me the opportunity to sort through the photographs and bring the story a little bit more up to date.

Like most vehicles of its age, the Karrier has a clutch stop immediately behind the de-clutching mechanism. It takes the form of a piece of spring steel, bolted across the pedal shaft brackets, onto which is riveted a leather ring. Upon withdrawing the clutch, a brake disk on the clutch shaft contacts the leather pad slowing the transmission.

(Visible in the first photograph of this Tuesday's post on gearbox removal)

The original leather was rotten and required replacement. I remembered having seen a description of the manufacture of new leather oil seals in "handy1882"s Vulcan VSW 30cwt 6x4. post (before it was comprehensively vandalised by the Photobucket corporation) so decided to have a go myself.

There's a 1/4" thick spacer ring between the leather and the spring-steel bracket. A square of leather was rough cut and bolted on before being chucked up in the Harrison lathe. A scalpel blade in a parting off tool holder was adjusted for height before being shown the leather. Slow speed, hand feed on the compound slide. 

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Trepanning the centre out of the leather

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And out it comes!

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Riveting underway; bolts removed one at a time, holes counter-bored to keep rivet heads below the surface of the leather.

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Computer insists on rotating this image for reasons I cannot fathom. Actual photograph is landscape. Huh??

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Riveting done. Just the paint to touch up.



 

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Now, that is a neat job! Makes my efforts with a Stanley knife look seriously rough!

You are making some serious progress with this job. You'll be out on the road in no time.

Steve  :)

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