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Alan

War and peace - thoughts so far

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Apologies Bob.

I did run off on a tangent, but actually edited and removed it, somehow it didn't save.

We all have view and yes, this is not the place for that.

Sorry to offend.

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Posted (edited)

Totally agree Bob,

It's this sort of poorly researched fakery that causes bad feeling and this isn't the place for it.

Take a deep breath Paul, it will be over soon hopefully and life will go on.

Edited by Mk3iain
stuff

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Well said Bob we are straying into dangerous waters with this turn in the thread. 

There is enough pain and angst in the UK over the whole sorry mess currently without letting it spill over onto this platform.

Gentlemen I think we all respect your views but it may be safer and more harmonious for all of us to steer clear of getting in too deep here :wave: 

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10 hours ago, bigduke6 said:

Well said, You beat me to it, 

  'didn't Some bloke with a dodgy moustache try something similar in 1939, but went in a bit heavy handed'...... 

No Geoff, He was a 'Lovely' Bloke. He used to buy His Mum Flowers & everything!.....;) 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Bob,

My post was purely bi-partisan

BTW - Apart from your post where else on this thread is duel nationality mentioned, and in what context?

Sorry - it was a deleted post

Edited by LarryH57

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Posted (edited)
On 7/28/2019 at 9:48 PM, paul connor said:

I guess any show has a bad egg. Even Normandy 2019 was dampened for me a touch by camping near some people who assumed a WW2 event means you can wear desert 95s and drive a fictional 109 Land Rover WMIK fantasy piece and a GS Land Rover with more aerials that GCHQ and less radios than an indigenous tribe in the Congo, vocally despise "foreigners", in France and get upset why their Land Rovers cannot participate in a WW2 vehicle run? Reminds me of the caravans and best of Ford Van's displays at modern war and peace.  I brought a military radio to display, and two RVs and a caravan!

 

I digress, but rules are rules. No Tax/MOT/insurance no movements on site! Simple as that. Enforce it, or potentially lose it all, that includes the show.

QUOTE   -  the line  ,     and drive a fictional 109 Land Rover WMIK fantasy piece and a GS Land Rover with more aerials that GCHQ and less radios than an indigenous tribe in the Congo,

The above I did enjoy for comedy content   10/10

However - I do know the complexity to the FFR kit newcomer , what with  TUAAM  ,  Balun   -   getting the time line absolute correct  (early Mk.)   Base ANTENNA support , or second choice  Base Aerial Support ,  will I ever need a ARFAT   (better get one just in case as very cheap) ,  consulting loads of User Handbooks / Supplements - all at a total great £  .   All the cables needed / obtaining - a minefield.  Then the decision , just what radio set(s) to go for - for a Lightweight Unitary Kit.    Not forgetting that I have a same but Larkspur project.

In short - I can see how lots of show trucks have min. 4 qty. antenna but keep the hood locked down.   I would estimate probably  90%  of these LR enthusiasts never get to a fully kitted and all correct rig.  Of course the few who have won the struggle probably don't ever win a cup because they don't have a KERR wrapped to the front bumperettes  !

Edited by ruxy
spellin

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Posted (edited)

I should have taken pictures..  they were adamant the series 3 was kitted with bowman. Well, bowman stickers. The fuel lockers were a lovely addition being a sheet of steel riveted on. It was a beautiful machine.

 

A good friend of mine who contributes on here a lot once said:

The more aerials a vehicle has the less chance there is it has a radio.

Always loved that quote! I hope he remembers saying it too. Ha

 

 

*added: I have never understood what's wrong with having a GS Land Rover? 

Edited by paul connor

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Just remember aerials and overhead power cables don't meet up.  Keep a look out, be safe and enjoy our hobby.

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9 hours ago, ferretfixer said:

 

How was your week Mike ? any bargains to be had, I was tempted to get down Sat but the boss had other ideas......

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3 hours ago, paul connor said:

 

The more aerials a vehicle has the less chance there is it has a radio.

Even less chance if there are flags on them.

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Well then, all you armchair show organisers, what would make WPR great again (trying not to sound too much like The President of the USA). Here are my serious & light hearted suggestions;

1 - Firstly get some interesting vehicles, such as Sdkfz or Saumur guys to come with a selection of their finest. Apart from them, send a general call out to French MV collectors who own and run many rare vehicles the likes of which never cross the channel. Also from Germany & Netherlands, why can't we have a Miltracks in the UK? Pay towards their attendance.

2 - Have a themed show, so try and get as much related stuff in for a particular show; think how much WW2 German vehicles are already in the UK let alone Europe and encourage all of them to attend and create a 'Captured Weapons Park' type display. The following year try and get as many British WW2 vehicles to attend or have a Cold War or National Service theme. Another idea might be a theme of modern middle east wars vehicles such as Libyan pick ups with Soviet AAA in the back but I guess most would be fakes. If necessary employ some night security so as to keep thieves away from collections of vehicles. Sadly, I can think of many WW2 types I have not seen for years, which I know exist but are probably tucked up inside garages waiting for the executors and the 'we buy any MV' scrap dealers! (Sorry love, according to the vehicle registration in my Parkers Guide, that Dingo is worth £50!) Another theme might be to get some reenactors from Japan to show what the WW2 Japanese Army or Navy looked like in the arena, and charge the crowd line, Banzi style, to scare them shitless!

3 - Unless the camping really is part of the display, move tents, the portaloo and caravans in to areas away from the vehicles. Not miles away but out of the immediate area. I have often thought how nice it would be if some Nissan Huts could be assembled or an old Army Camp used for accommodation.

4 - Think about photography as it's often a pull for owners and public alike; we all like to snap away but it's so annoying to find vehicles on display, parked up in rows tighter than a Sainsburys Car Park on Saturday morning! Also put a ban on those boards showing the history of the vehicle, typically the size of a barn door covered in horse brasses and hammered in to the ground inches away from the vehicle or laminated sheets of paper stuck over the windscreen for the same purpose. Show organisers need to insist on clean vehicles - not clean of mud etc - but as related above, cleansed of a multitude of flags and aerials. Also organisers must request MV owners get real and remove items not attributed to their vehicles- so that AAA gun in the back of a RE Postal Section Land Rover really must go! Plus ban any webbing hanging from the sides or wing mirrors of a vehicle used in Europe, that's not already in a properly constructed storage rack! If not bring photographic evidence!

5 - Get rid of Fun Fairs; no real reason but I just hate them and that they take up space that could be used by others. Plus if little sis is bored of green machines, leave the brat at home with mum or auntie. Perhaps offer discounts to 'Dad' not to bring in unenthusiastic children or even offer an activity centre for them so Dad can have a good day out!

6 - Have an arena of a descent size such as that at Mil Odyssey. The one at WPR is too small and it is rather strange at some shows to have a battle re-enactment where the Germans begin their attack on the Yanks when they are just a few yards away. The ideal arena would have the public one side of a barrier overlooking an enormous area preferably surrounded by trees to give a neutral back ground, and even better have axis armour crash out of the trees in the distance and advance on the Allied Forces at the other end of the arena. In battles avoid big red fiery explosions (not seen in reality) and instead make them more realistic by perhaps blowing up or setting fire to a mock house. Apart from the battles, the arena could be used nicely for vehicles on display with trees in the background but to help organisers should remove their support vehicles, old double decker buses and cherry pickers  from the arena which might give them some nice photos but will spoil mine thanks!  One show I went to in 1980s had an arena entrance along a track behind which was a hedge and no public so I could photograph each vehicle at leisure.

7 - Military music from proper military bands might be nice,  perhaps in a separate arena with seating in the stands and wide entrance for the bands to enter. Think 'Edinburgh Tattoo' with some classic military tunes played by British Military Bands or Association Bands, and less of the female dancers from the Jordanian Army, Women's Voluntary Balloon Corps! On a nice summer evening it might be nice to have flood lit performances for mv owners and public to enjoy. Brit Mil music might make a change from Glen Miller.

8- Attractions; how about an air rifle range whereby people pay to shoot at 1/16th scale RC tanks controlled by others, and try to stop them. The tanks could even fire back 'blood' pellets to the masked up shooters. Income would probably exceed the cost of the tanks!

That's enough for now!

   

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Having attended Militracks and Ciney this yest, it's clear how good shows actually can be. WP has the potential but it feels as if "that'll do" attitude prevails as they know it will bring in the bucks.

The ideas above are great. Encourage with incentives armour collections to come, maybe museums and well. 

Green only areas. Choreographed battles that make sense. Strict camping display policy. More stalls, less fun fair, expand! 

Some great ideas. Maybe a HMVF show?

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11 hours ago, bigduke6 said:

How was your week Mike ? any bargains to be had, I was tempted to get down Sat but the boss had other ideas......

VERY Hot Geoff! So hot that I only trawled certain stores looking for accessories & small parts for my Newly Acquired Jeep.

I had a mega Bargain from some Danish Guys, I was VERY pleased! ;)

The heat sapped my enthusiasm for daily stall patrols though. As it did many others!

The Hard rain on Friday & Saturday morning. Did turn the tracks into quagmires everywhere. Not helped by idiots,

Who thought it great fun no doubt. Driving along at SPEED. Creating Muddy Tidal Waves all over Peoples vehicles & display areas!....The 5mph Speed limit became a dream, & disappeared into the ether!.....

Stalls were  down on last year. & some of the Major dealers were noticeable by thier absence!.....

I was also struck this year at the change of atmos. There seems to be something 'Missing'?.....

Little Monkton's was reserved for Civy camping only. Whereas last year it was PACKED with attendees!

America's Field was packed though, also with a LOT of Foreign Visitors. Which was nice to see. I chatted with 

quite a few of them.

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Posted (edited)

I have been watching this thread on and off as it lengthens (even though I didn't go to W&P this year). Here are  a few of my thoughts about some things that have been talked about for years and some just this year;

1. I am of the opinion that shows - especially big ones like this - have three distinct periods in their time line, a period of growth from their beginnings when it's new and exciting and so more people go along year on year. The second period is of some stability when a show has found a level and is still good so is on something of a plateau and the final period is one of decline as it slides off the plateau. This decline can vary and is affected by all sorts of things and factors; weather, moves of venue, change of organisation, changing fashions, rival events etc etc. (I saw exactly the same thing happen to something nearby years ago - the Kent Custom Bike Show. It started at a cafe on the A20 boomed, moved venues and boomed but eventually declined and ended). Then, in this final period, grumpy old blokes sit around saying, 'it's not as good as it was...' Basically, W&P's glory days are over and they ain't coming back. 

2. Some people on this thread want a big show full of rarities and expect everyone to be as reverential as them. It isn't going to happen - the only way big shows can break even is if big numbers pay to come through the gate. People don't all want the same thing from a show - one group might want it all to be WWII American vehicles, others need to sell stuff, some want to dress up and strut about...

3. Add in the cost of many vehicles, a factor that limits the hobby for many, so - to get big numbers - it's inevitable that there will be impostors and 'odd' replicas. Those people pay their fees that help put the event on so being snobbish about them serves no purpose apart from giving grumpy blokes something to whinge about...

4. Too many Land Rovers? Maybe but they are pretty much - in Britain anyway these days - the only affordable/entry level/call it what you like military vehicle. If anything surprises me about Land Rovers, it's the fact that there aren't more  Malaya/Aden/Kenya/Ulster dioramas

5. No fairgrounds? It's about getting numbers and families through the gate - mind you Carter's Fair with its AEC Matadors always appealed to me  and I'll watch a Wall of Death wherever there is one. If you want a show full of a specific type of armour or vehicles then organise a small, specialist event that isn't reliant on day visitors - Overloon works for example - the more specialist something gets, the fewer it appeals to. 

6. Lack of traders? The traders aren't charities so won't come if they don't make a profit. It costs them a lot to make that profit too - staff, transport, subsistence, security, (ferries in some cases) plus plus... By this line of thinking - there will be lots of Jeep traders because there's lots of Jeeps and owners. eBay has also changed the face of selling for traders too.

Anyway that's a few of my thoughts but the reason I didn't to to W&P in 2019 (and am unlikely to go ever again) is that I can't be bothered to drive to Kent from Yorkshire to use horrible bogs and stand in a beer tent surrounded by Nazis... especially after I got a sh**** email from one of the organisers after mentioning the poor toilets in a magazine article.

Finally, here's a picture of one of my quasi-military Jeeps on its big alloy wheels - it's been to Normandy, W&P, Elvington, Bovington and more over the years (but don't make the mistake of thinking that I have got it because I can't afford a 'real' one as I have owned it for 30 years).

Toodle pip,

JC

 

 

66683585_2905934532766690_5384584998458228736_o.jpg

Edited by Jolly Jeeper
typo

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2 hours ago, Jolly Jeeper said:

I have been watching this thread on and off as it lengthens (even though I didn't go to W&P this year). Here are  a few of my thoughts about some things that have been talked about for years and some just this year;

1. I am of the opinion that shows - especially big ones like this - have three distinct periods in their time line, a period of growth from their beginnings when it's new and exciting and so more people go along year on year. The second period is of some stability when a show has found a level and is still good so is on something of a plateau and the final period is one of decline as it slides off the plateau. This decline can vary and is affected by all sorts of things and factors; weather, moves of venue, change of organisation, changing fashions, rival events etc etc. (I saw exactly the same thing happen to something nearby years ago - the Kent Custom Bike Show. It started at a cafe on the A20 boomed, moved venues and boomed but eventually declined and ended). Then, in this final period, grumpy old blokes sit around saying, 'it's not as good as it was...' Basically, W&P's glory days are over and they ain't coming back. 

2. Some people on this thread want a big show full of rarities and expect everyone to be as reverential as them. It isn't going to happen - the only way big shows can break even is if big numbers pay to come through the gate. People don't all want the same thing from a show - one group might want it all to be WWII American vehicles, others need to sell stuff, some want to dress up and strut about...

3. Add in the cost of many vehicles, a factor that limits the hobby for many, so - to get big numbers - it's inevitable that there will be impostors and 'odd' replicas. Those people pay their fees that help put the event on so being snobbish about them serves no purpose apart from giving grumpy blokes something to whinge about...

4. Too many Land Rovers? Maybe but they are pretty much - in Britain anyway these days - the only affordable/entry level/call it what you like military vehicle. If anything surprises me about Land Rovers, it's the fact that there aren't more  Malaya/Aden/Kenya/Ulster dioramas

5. No fairgrounds? It's about getting numbers and families through the gate - mind you Carter's Fair with its AEC Matadors always appealed to me  and I'll watch a Wall of Death wherever there is one. If you want a show full of a specific type of armour or vehicles then organise a small, specialist event that isn't reliant on day visitors - Overloon works for example - the more specialist something gets, the fewer it appeals to. 

6. Lack of traders? The traders aren't charities so won't come if they don't make a profit. It costs them a lot to make that profit too - staff, transport, subsistence, security, (ferries in some cases) plus plus... By this line of thinking - there will be lots of Jeep traders because there's lots of Jeeps and owners. eBay has also changed the face of selling for traders too.

Anyway that's a few of my thoughts but the reason I didn't to to W&P in 2019 (and am unlikely to go ever again) is that I can't be bothered to drive to Kent from Yorkshire to use horrible bogs and stand in a beer tent surrounded by Nazis... especially after I got a sh**** email from one of the organisers after mentioning the poor toilets in a magazine article.

Finally, here's a picture of one of my quasi-military Jeeps on its big alloy wheels - it's been to Normandy, W&P, Elvington, Bovington and more over the years (but don't make the mistake of thinking that I have got it because I can't afford a 'real' one as I have owned it for 30 years).

Toodle pip,

JC

 

 

66683585_2905934532766690_5384584998458228736_o.jpg

Think that about says it all – nice Jeep

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2 hours ago, Baz48 said:

Think that about says it all – nice Jeep

Thanks - here it is at Asnelles this year

cover fb Normandy_new.jpg

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, matchlesswdg3 said:

So why have'nt you got a real one, then?

Over the years, I've had a '43 MB, a '53 Scammell Explorer, a couple of '42 Harley WLCs, four Lightweight Land Rovers and this M201 but the CJ-3B/CJ340 is my favourite because I have had so much fun in it. I'll see what happens when the M38A1/M606A2, MB bitsa, CJ-2A and '32 Ford projects in my shed are finished but I doubt they'll change my mind about which is my favourite...  There's no accounting for taste eh? I guess I'm just fascinated by the complex story of the CJ-3B and its M606, Mahindra, Viasa, Hotchkiss, Ebro, Viasa, and Mitsubishi versions. 

Or I could just say that's my business...

 

M201.jpg

Edited by Jolly Jeeper

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Interesting!  Thanks for sharing.  Its fascinating to hear just how/why folk make their choices.......over and above the usual constraints of cash, space and SWIMBO!

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On 8/1/2019 at 8:13 AM, ferretfixer said:

VERY Hot Geoff! So hot that I only trawled certain stores looking for accessories & small parts for my Newly Acquired Jeep.

I had a mega Bargain from some Danish Guys, I was VERY pleased! ;)

The heat sapped my enthusiasm for daily stall patrols though. As it did many others!

The Hard rain on Friday & Saturday morning. Did turn the tracks into quagmires everywhere. Not helped by idiots,

Who thought it great fun no doubt. Driving along at SPEED. Creating Muddy Tidal Waves all over Peoples vehicles & display areas!....The 5mph Speed limit became a dream, & disappeared into the ether!.....

Stalls were  down on last year. & some of the Major dealers were noticeable by thier absence!.....

I was also struck this year at the change of atmos. There seems to be something 'Missing'?.....

Little Monkton's was reserved for Civy camping only. Whereas last year it was PACKED with attendees!

America's Field was packed though, also with a LOT of Foreign Visitors. Which was nice to see. I chatted with 

quite a few of them.

Mike, I think there has been something missing for the last few years, I enjoyed it more at Folkestone Race course, A dodle for anyone on the train etc but everyone to there own. 

I normally sea a few vehicles heading over on my ferry or at least in the port but seen none this year apart from getting off on Wendesday and a few were entering Dover to go to France !!!

As for heat, After over 30 years in an Engine room (not all in one stint) I try and stay clear of it unless a well stocked bar is close by......speaking of which, I had to stay in Calais ( tax purposes), Hotel I use is like a sweat box at times, but that night......... an afternoons beer was turned into sweat within miutes, thinking at the time -30 at Batus wasnt that bad really.

Even at Euston Station at 0930 it was uncomfortable, luckily my journey went without any delays.

Hopefully next year for me, Maybe the Matchless and BSA will be done by then........

 

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Always fancied an M201 myself , in French camo and dressed appropriately I think it would make a pleasant change on the mv scene, I see there are now a few re enactors portraying 1950’s French army as well. I did start collecting the appropriate uniform for this, but even M201’s are now expensive. 

 

The mahindra has has always been tempting as a fun vehicle, but having a lightweight LR ticks all the boxes currently in that respect.

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1 hour ago, Alan said:

Always fancied an M201 myself , in French camo and dressed appropriately I think it would make a pleasant change on the mv scene, I see there are now a few re enactors portraying 1950’s French army as well. I did start collecting the appropriate uniform for this, but even M201’s are now expensive. 

 

The mahindra has has always been tempting as a fun vehicle, but having a lightweight LR ticks all the boxes currently in that respect.

You could do a French set up like this with a Mahindra (judging from the windscreen this is either a 3A or a 3B). I know nothing about the pic but found it on the net one night. I agree with you that Mahindra Jeeps and Lightweight Land Rovers offer a similar fun driving experience

Sahara.jpg

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14 hours ago, Alan said:

Always fancied an M201 myself , in French camo and dressed appropriately I think it would make a pleasant change on the mv scene, I see there are now a few re enactors portraying 1950’s French army as well. I did start collecting the appropriate uniform for this, but even M201’s are now expensive.

I think that group is called 'The Fighting French' and they have a FB page. I chatted a bit with one of their members myself as I have an interest in French militaria too.

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Just read the Classic Military Vehicle W&P report in the new Sept edition.  Highly..........uncritical?  As I supposed it would have to be?  "Airbrushed" might be a word that would come to mind for some folk who compared the event to what it was just four years ago.  It will be interesting to see how it compares with Military Odyssey coming up shortly.  Does that show still have its mojo?

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1 hour ago, matchlesswdg3 said:

Just read the Classic Military Vehicle W&P report in the new Sept edition.  Highly..........uncritical?  As I supposed it would have to be?  

I read it today and wondered if I went to the same event as the author. I know the magazine has to make the best of it....but need to retain credibility too

 

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