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Old Git

White Scout Car in British use, NWE 1944

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Posted (edited)

Hi All,

looking for pointers on whatever mods\configs were made to the WSC when in British use, especially for NW Europe in 1944. Have had a look around the forum and can't find anything definitive? Ideally, if anyone's got a pointer to a book, or file at the National Archives etc. which covers this topic I'd be most interested to hear of it.

I can see from period pics that in some instances the skate rail was removed completely, Pip Roberts Command version of the WSC being a good example. Incidentally does anyone know the full Census number for Roberts WSC, from the famous pic it looks to be Z 495533? Anyone confirm or deny?

large_000000.jpg

 

Also, what radios other than the WS 19 would Roberts have had in the back of his WSC. The following bit of film shows several attennae...and a spare wheel on the back. Any ideas?

https://fa9e73e865f29caec390-2a80cf171f3b8b56b3a148be08287271.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/0x060A2B340101010201010F1213000000E51D7F0E9FEBE2390000B4B52F563190.mp4

 

Also, any info on the WSC in RE use? I think they also used them in the Recce / Radio role and I have a note from the RE office who scouted the Bailey bridge build for Putanges in 1944. His diary notes that he took two WSC's with him and left one on the hill outside of town as his rear radio link. Anyone aware of anything specific about RE configurations of the WSC?

 

Edited by Old Git

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Posted (edited)

The WSC in use with Phantom GHQ Liaison Regiment is known to have been fitted with the WS22, WS9 (Canadian) and WS52.

I have a WS9 Canadian fitted in mine to represent a patrol vehicle of "A" Squadron in NWE between June and September 44.

Phantom retained the Skate Rail on their vehicles and those attached to American units mounted the 50 cal.

Tim

Edited by Packhow75
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These have lost their rear bumper as well as other mods - spare wheel and cans (IWM B 8148 and BU 1418):

 

B8148.jpg

BU1418.jpg

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Thanks for those pics, some of them I've seen already but a few I have not, so all very useful. Thanks for taking the time to post them. I've found some images of an Airborne Configuration for the WSC which I shall attach here, as a means of keeping all this info together for others, alongside another photo of a British WSC in Normandy...

I think my next port of call will be Bovington to see what info they have on Pip Roberts WSC.

 

 

WSC - In Normandy.jpg

Airborne-1 - WSC - m3a1-cover-pic.jpg

Airborne-2 - WSC - rear-and-side-view-of-modified-vehicle.jpg

Airborne-3 - WSC - document-showing-the-additional-wireless-sets-in-the-m3-scout-car.jpg

Airborne-4 - WSC - document-showing-the-interior-modifications-to-the-m3-scout-car-for-airborne-use.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Have also just turned-up this drawing, not sure where it came from though. (have just discovered where this drawing is from and new image added below).

white 19.jpg

WSC-Manual-1.jpg

Edited by Old Git

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OK, so after a abit of hunting around I have turned up the following images which seem to show the standard British conversions for the White Scout Car. From what I can see in the two photos below...

1.) removal of passenger side headlight and fitting of standard British side light. On Driver's side replacement of US headlight for Hooded British light and British side light.

2.) Removal of unditching Roller

3.) Fitting of Wing Mirrors; and something else I can't quite make out, on the passenger side, just in front of the Wing mirror.

4.) Also top of the cage, protecting head lights, cut away.

5.) This WSC has retained the Skate rail although we do know that it was removed in some others, notably Pip Robert's WSC which we started this thread with. Mods so far seem to accord wit configuration of Robert's WSC.

6.) There does not appear to be any US tools fitted so wonder if indeed they did come with the tools, or if it was intended to replace them with Standard GS Tools?

7.) Bridge Classification plate fitted to passenger side bumperette

8.) The WSC appears to be painted SCC 2 Brown, with a camo pattern overpaint SCC 14 Blue/Black Disruptive

9.) The tilt also looks as though it's been re-painted / re-coloured.

10.) On the rear of the WSC the Bumper has been removed

11.) Rear lights re-configured. Drivers side moved all the way to bottom of plate but Passengers side possibly left in situ or side moved up above where Bumper would have been. Differnt style of mountings for both lights

12.) On drivers rear side there is padlocked cage for mounting what appears to be 3 x Flimseys and I think this was later modified to take Jerrycans.

13.) On the passengers side a mounting, made from basic angle iron, for a spare wheel.

 

The Third photo show a WSC of the Czech Brigade entering Prague on May 5th, 1945. I believe these chaps may have been equipped by the British for, at the very least, the mods to their WSC's are very similar.

Fourth photo is a zoom in on the spare wheel rack on photo 3.

Would like to know what folks think?

Pete 

 

Brit-Config-1.jpg

Brit-Config-2.jpg

Brit-Config-3.jpg

Brit-Config-3a.jpg

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1 hour ago, Old Git said:

OK, so after a abit of hunting around I have turned up the following images which seem to show the standard British conversions for the White Scout Car. From what I can see in the two photos below...

1.) removal of passenger side headlight and fitting of standard British side light. On Driver's side replacement of US headlight for Hooded British light and British side light.

2.) Removal of unditching Roller

3.) Fitting of Wing Mirrors; and something else I can't quite make out, on the passenger side, just in front of the Wing mirror.

4.) Also top of the cage, protecting head lights, cut away.

5.) This WSC has retained the Skate rail although we do know that it was removed in some others, notably Pip Robert's WSC which we started this thread with. Mods so far seem to accord wit configuration of Robert's WSC.

6.) There does not appear to be any US tools fitted so wonder if indeed they did come with the tools, or if it was intended to replace them with Standard GS Tools?

7.) Bridge Classification plate fitted to passenger side bumperette

8.) The WSC appears to be painted SCC 2 Brown, with a camo pattern overpaint SCC 14 Blue/Black Disruptive

9.) The tilt also looks as though it's been re-painted / re-coloured.

10.) On the rear of the WSC the Bumper has been removed

11.) Rear lights re-configured. Drivers side moved all the way to bottom of plate but Passengers side possibly left in situ or side moved up above where Bumper would have been. Differnt style of mountings for both lights

12.) On drivers rear side there is padlocked cage for mounting what appears to be 3 x Flimseys and I think this was later modified to take Jerrycans.

13.) On the passengers side a mounting, made from basic angle iron, for a spare wheel.

 

The Third photo show a WSC of the Czech Brigade entering Prague on May 5th, 1945. I believe these chaps may have been equipped by the British for, at the very least, the mods to their WSC's are very similar.

Fourth photo is a zoom in on the spare wheel rack on photo 3.

Would like to know what folks think?

Pete 

 

Brit-Config-1.jpg

Brit-Config-2.jpg

Brit-Config-3.jpg

Brit-Config-3a.jpg

3 - This is an indicator arm similar to that found on the side of a Bedford QL.

13  - Spare Wheel holder... anyone have the pattern for this please - or able to make me one for my WSC... I have a spare wheel... but the WS9 radio set across the rear end of my WSC prevents me carrying the spare there... and of course it is not ideal having it on the inside of the vehicle?

Cheers


Tim

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Tim,

it looks to me like this is just a couple of pieces of angle-iron, held together with cross members and bolted to the back of the WSC. The two upper cross members are obviously designed so as to not foul access to the two rows of footman loops on the back end. Those appear to be two wooden blocks, bolted to the bottom angle iron, to act as wheel rests. It doesn't look like a very complicated thing to make and anyone with welding gear could knock this up just by eyeballing it from these photos.

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Hi Tim,

could you post a pic of your spare wheel, front and rear of hub area?

Pete

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On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 10:38 PM, Old Git said:

Hi Tim,

could you post a pic of your spare wheel, front and rear of hub area?

Pete

 

WSC-SpareWheel-1.jpg

WSC-SpareWheel-2.jpg

WSC-SpareWheel-3.jpg

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Tim,

 

thanks for those photos mate, absolutely cracking and have a answered a few questions about these Combat rims!

 

I've been searching on IWM on search strings "White" AND "Scout Car" and have been specifically targeting the film/video clips they have on line. It's amazing what is coming up in these old clips and nearly all the Whites I'm seeing, in NW Europe, 44-45, have the same mods as Z 4955336 above! I'm pretty happy that I've tracked down the mods for the WSC in NW Europe and I think I've found the full census number for Pip Roberts WSC as well (which, if anyone is curious, may well be Z 4955321).

I'd love to know what his wireless setup was and if it was the same as the one of the standard WS 19 ones as listed in that pamphlet shown above. Incidentally, Rob Van Meel does a reprint of that pamphlet.

 

Pete

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There is an IWM series of films on the 51st Highland Division preparing for D-Day. There is a fleeting image of a Phantom WSC towing a 10cwt GS trailer making its way down to the port of embarkation. 

I may have a lead to see if there are any unofficial photos of Pip Roberts’ WSC but don’t hold your breath. It may before some months before I see my lead again.

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Posted (edited)

Re Pip Roberts' WSC, there's a nice bit of film of him in his WSC on the IWM website. It shows enough of the WSC to see that it seems to sport the standard British mods as shown in the photos above. Waiting to hear back from the Library at Bovington to see if they have any info on his WSC, or WSC's in general. That said, on Facebook  I've found a PDF copy of an article by David Fletcher, which appeared in the MVPA publication, 'Supply Line', dated November 2014. Article is mostly concerned with the WSC in British use and, surprisingly, it doesn't contain the photos posted earlier in this thread which seem to show the standard British layout; and Fletcher himself seems a bit vague on what constitute the standard British layout which probably means he was unsure because none of this info is held at Bovi Library. C'est le vie!

 

Pip Roberts video at IWM is below, I taken a few stills from this. and they've proved useful

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060019769

 

Edited by Old Git

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Tim,

Did you ever track down the dims for the Battery Carrier. Secy Port No. 18 for the WSC? Or better pics/drawings of it? I presume that they removed the entire stowage locker, between driver and passenger seat, and replaced it with this carrier, or did the carrier fit inside the stowage box?

Can you provide dims for the two wooden battey boxes that were used, these were the 6v x 170 Ah, right?

Also, do you have any dims for Mounting Brackets No.2 and No. 3 for the Aerial Bases?

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Found the dims for the WS 19 wooden battery box over on the WS 19 web site. But would like to know, Tim, what you think about removal of forward stowage locker and replacement with the No.18 Battery mount?

 

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My great uncle was a driver of one of these from Normandy to Berlin - in a specialised version called a Sonic.

He landed on Juno and waded ashore in it on D+5 and was part of the 3rd Scout Car Company that were all equipped with Whites. He confirmed that they all had the roller removed as well you might find these useful.

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/sonic-warfare-in-normandy.37446/page-2

 

APIttbG.png

 

WW2TalkQuiz.jpg

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4 hours ago, Old Git said:

Found the dims for the WS 19 wooden battery box over on the WS 19 web site. But would like to know, Tim, what you think about removal of forward stowage locker and replacement with the No.18 Battery mount?

 

I didn't track down the dimensions... but I do have the batteries, and the frames seem pretty basic.

I haven't removed the stowage lockers - these are original installation for my vehicle... instead I intend installing my batteries under the Canadian WS9 which sits across the rear.

I don't have the dimensions for the correct mountings for the antennas either - I have some which have been made using the photos, but they need slight modification to get them to fit properly.

Tim

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Hi Spencer54, thanks for those images and the info, I had seen these configurations before and I think I have a copy of War Illustrated from 1944/45 that has an article a two page, centre spread, drawing of a White in this configuration. I am fast coming to the conclusion that removal of the Roller was commonplace on British configurations whilst still being retained in some roles, quite what they were is still a mystery though!

 

Tim,

thanks for the answers mate. I've got a good understanding of the Battery box but would love to see a couple photos of an original battery. Do you have any, or can you link me to one on the net...I've been searching but haven't yet turned up a good photo of a battery...although admittedly I'm not 100% certain of what I'm looking for so I may already have seen it 😉

 

Pete

 

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1 minute ago, Old Git said:

Hi Spencer54, thanks for those images and the info, I had seen these configurations before and I think I have a copy of War Illustrated from 1944/45 that has an article a two page, centre spread, drawing of a White in this configuration. I am fast coming to the conclusion that removal of the Roller was commonplace on British configurations whilst still being retained in some roles, quite what they were is still a mystery though!

 

Tim,

thanks for the answers mate. I've got a good understanding of the Battery box but would love to see a couple photos of an original battery. Do you have any, or can you link me to one on the net...I've been searching but haven't yet turned up a good photo of a battery...although admittedly I'm not 100% certain of what I'm looking for so I may already have seen it 😉

 

Pete

 

I will sort out some photos of the battery boxes.

I do have a spare box I could sell or swap - it needs some TLC as has been "updated" by an enthusiast.

Tim

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Hi Tim,

I've got what I need re the Battery boxes just want to see the actual cells that went inside the boxes. Are you aware of any web sites that show these?

Pete

 

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