Armour in Germany and the Law

[Richard Farrant]

 

2 hours ago, Mk3iain said:

 

I am at a loss to think of an example of a collectors vehicle anywhere being taken and used unlawfully. No doubt I am wrong, but I can only think of stolen  military stock being a problem.

 

Hi Iain,

There was an incident in 2007 in the suburbs of Sydney, with (I think from memory) a privately owned FV432, see this link below, he destroyed mobile phone masts, etc.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6898667.stm

 

[Mk3iain]

2 hours ago, Richard Farrant said:

 

Hi Iain,

There was an incident in 2007 in the suburbs of Sydney, with (I think from memory) a privately owned FV432, see this link below, he destroyed mobile phone masts, etc.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6898667.stm

 

Thanks Richard

Thankfully a very rare occurrence, did he steal the 432?  I remember a clip of a 432 in the UK being driven fast in town by a guy standing in the drivers position, not a good image!

So far collecting ex mil vehicles has positive image in the UK ( helped along by such as Combat Dealers), although the balance of public perception could easily tip.

Its in our hands to maintain that image, not too difficult...

Iain

 

[101 Ron]

The FV 432 was owned by a panel beater who had a little bit of a side business hiring out the vehicle for films and Weddings etc.

A employee of the panel beater was unhappy about things in general.

The employee had seen how the vehicle was started and operated during his normal course of employment.( he had nothing to do with the vehicle as apart of his employment)

The employee came back after work one day and took the vehicle out of a secured and locked premises and cause a police chase and damage..

Another case was a another APC was taken by a ex soldier from a army depot after he cut though security fences etc and again a police chase and much property damage done.

We in Australia are extremely lucky we still have our hobby.

I am not a fan of reenactor groups, but respect what they try to do...……………..it only takes one flip or fruit loop to cause a bad look for our hobby.

The vehicle club I am in is vehicle only and no guns at all and I am happy for it to stay that way as we cannot be seen to be a military organisation...……...but just an old vehicle club.

Edited January 14, 2019 by 101 Ron

[David Herbert]

Edited: My thanks to Robin Craig for correcting the fake news that I had repeated in this post about a Guy with a Ferret at the Canadian Parliament, Please read his version below.

I think that the risk to most of us is people like the guy in 101Ron's post above rather than terrorists but we should be aware that if something can happen it will do, somewhere eventually. No one believed that 9,11 would happen till it did....

David

Edited January 15, 2019 by David Herbert

[robin craig]

David,

I am familiar with the urban legend you describe.

I can assure you the reality was different. The driver did not drive up the steps of Parliament at all, he merely drove around the road that was publicly accessible at the time to anyone. The vehicle was being driven legally, properly insured and no offences were committed at the time. The driver and vehicle commander left the scene after a bit of a ruckus and a chat without coffee or biscuits with the plods later that evening with the vehicle. As there were no charges laid there were no names released.

It was unfortunate for sure and everyone learned a few lessons, appropriateness and legality having a fine line separating them.

However, a number of other incidents and the advent of 9/11 caused that circulatory, publicly accessible route to be closed. It is now pedestrian access as many government houses of assembly are, and by more than the odd bollard, the place is a relative fortress.

If you wind back the clock, at the time the then American Embassy was directly in line with the exit from Parliament Hill and at the time the Americans were heavily involved in the Balkans and the local law were sensitive to their perceived threat level that the vehicle posed.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

 

 

[monty2]

how about transport armoured vehicles through germany any problems there ??

 

[David Herbert]

Thank you Robin,

I was there a couple of years after the 'incident' with the Ferret and was told about it by a couple of people who I respected so had no reason to doubt the story. I am grateful to you for putting the record straight and my apologies to everyone for introducing some fake news. I will edit my post to reflect this.

David

[Ex-boy]

Surely the number of privately owned AFVs is dwarfed by those in military service, and I know they have been commandeered on at least one occasion by crewmen and driven on public roads. As this is something that can happen at any time, should all AFVs be banned altogether? Just a thought.

[terryb]

2 hours ago, Ex-boy said:

Surely the number of privately owned AFVs is dwarfed by those in military service, and I know they have been commandeered on at least one occasion by crewmen and driven on public roads. As this is something that can happen at any time, should all AFVs be banned altogether? Just a thought.

service personnell and equipment is closely controlled and monitored and so much less likely to go awray, there is no control over privately owned vehicles, who as a tiny minority as easy targets. Either way, you can't predict or legislate against someone going nuts 

[robin craig]

Thank you David, that is very good of you to  edit you post.

 

 

[LarryH57]

A google Translate gives a list of prohibited items as follows:

IV. Combat vehicles

 24. Tanks

 25. Other armored combat vehicles including the armored combat-supporting vehicles

 26. Special vehicles of all kinds designed exclusively for the use of weapons of numbers 1 to 6

 27. Chassis for the weapons of numbers 24 and 25 (presumably those above)

 28. Towers for main battle tanks (Not a clue what towers are;  perhaps towers are things that tow tanks)

 V.   Pipe weapons

 

 29.a) Machine guns, other than those with water cooling,

 (b) Submachine guns, other than those introduced as a model before 2 September 1945 by a military force,

 (c) Fully automatic rifles, except those introduced as a model before 2 September 1945 by a military force,

 (d) Semi-automatic rifles, except those introduced as a model before 2 September 1945 by a military force,

      and hunting and sporting rifles

 

 30. Grenade machine guns, grenade rifles, grenade pistols

 31. Cannons, howitzers, mortars of any kind

 32. Maschinen kanonen (automatic canons perhaps like chain guns)

 33. Plated self-propelled guns for the weapons of Nos. 31 and 32

 34. Pipes for the weapons of numbers 29, 31 and 32

 35. Enclosures for the weapons of numbers 29, 31 and 32

 36. Drums for machine guns

 

 VI. Light antitank weapons, flame throwers, mine-laying and mine-throwing systems

 

 37. Low-recoil, unguided, portable antitank weapons

 38. Flame thrower

 39. Mining and mining systems for landmines

 

 VII. Torpedoes, mines, bombs, stand-alone ammunition

 

 40. Torpedos

 41. Torpedos without warhead (explosive part)

 42. Hull torpedoes (torpedoes without warhead - explosive part - and without homing head)

 43. Mines of all kinds

 44. Bombs of all kinds including the depth charges

 45. Handflammpatronen (petrol bombs perhaps)

 46. Hand grenades

 47. Pioneer explosive devices, hollow and adhesive charges as well as explosive demining equipment

 48. Sprengladungen for the weapons of number 43 (help needed)

 

[terryb]

pretty much everything then

towers I think refers to turrets

[MatchFuzee]

31 minutes ago, LarryH57 said:

 48. Sprengladungen for the weapons of number 43 (help needed)

Sprengladunden, translates to explosives or explosive charges.

[johann morris]

As I said, just about everything worth collecting. I wonder what they are offering in compensation to the owners of any of the above, if they are now forced to dispose of their collections.

I don't know how true this is but it would appear that the German government is also trying to introduce a law "to make criticising the government on such things as immigration policy a criminal offence". Orwell was right, just out by a few decades!

Edited January 16, 2019 by johann morris

[LarryH57]

Without being too political, why is it that nearly all Western Governments the world over want to remove anything remotely dangerous or useful as a weapon, and don't want to 'remove' the culprites from this world, when they use these items for illegal purposes. Instead they protect their human rights and keep them safe in prison, until such time as everyone has forgotten their crimes and they are released after half their sentence.

Currently it's circa 12 years in jail for a Murder in the UK - but 200 years jail with no parole in Texas!

[paul connor]

I know a few people here in Germany with armour. You are allowed to own it, and trade it, as many dealer pages will verify. Driving tanks on the road is not allowed, I discovered this changing my licence as I lost the 'H' class entitlement, as they do not have such a category. It would seem only the Bundeswehr are allowed to drive tracked vehicles on the road.

The document is in reference to live equipment, not de-militarised.

As for collecting, it all seems the same as the UK from what I can see, bar the EU specification on deactivated weapons. Also the sale of Reich goods is tricky, although not illegal, just illegal to show emblems from my understanding.

Edited January 16, 2019 by paul connor

[paul connor]

Just in case for the people that know me, I now live in Germany! in case the above made little sense. 

[David Herbert]

Paul,

The H class in the UK licence is used much more for tracked agricultural tractors, excavators and tracked dumpers than for armoured vehicles. Surely the Germans have an equivalent ?

David

[Niels v]

16 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

A google Translate gives a list of prohibited items as follows:

 28. Towers for main battle tanks (Not a clue what towers are;  perhaps towers are things that tow tanks)

 

This (Türme) means tank turrets  

 

 

[Ashcollection]

from there being no examples of old armoured vehicles used in anything dodgy we now have several examples, here's another.

 

these people are not part of our hobby or anything to do with us, but one bad apple reflects on the rest. in todays political and social climate, I can totally see why authorities would want to take our toys!

 

[Packhow75]

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 3:54 PM, LarryH57 said:

A google Translate gives a list of prohibited items as follows:

IV. Combat vehicles

 24. Tanks

 25. Other armored combat vehicles including the armored combat-supporting vehicles

 26. Special vehicles of all kinds designed exclusively for the use of weapons of numbers 1 to 6

 27. Chassis for the weapons of numbers 24 and 25 (presumably those above)

 28. Towers for main battle tanks (Not a clue what towers are;  perhaps towers are things that tow tanks)

 V.   Pipe weapons

 

 29.a) Machine guns, other than those with water cooling,

 (b) Submachine guns, other than those introduced as a model before 2 September 1945 by a military force,

 (c) Fully automatic rifles, except those introduced as a model before 2 September 1945 by a military force,

 (d) Semi-automatic rifles, except those introduced as a model before 2 September 1945 by a military force,

      and hunting and sporting rifles

 

 30. Grenade machine guns, grenade rifles, grenade pistols

 31. Cannons, howitzers, mortars of any kind

 32. Maschinen kanonen (automatic canons perhaps like chain guns)

 33. Plated self-propelled guns for the weapons of Nos. 31 and 32

 34. Pipes for the weapons of numbers 29, 31 and 32

 35. Enclosures for the weapons of numbers 29, 31 and 32

 36. Drums for machine guns

 

 VI. Light antitank weapons, flame throwers, mine-laying and mine-throwing systems

 

 37. Low-recoil, unguided, portable antitank weapons

 38. Flame thrower

 39. Mining and mining systems for landmines

 

 VII. Torpedoes, mines, bombs, stand-alone ammunition

 

 40. Torpedos

 41. Torpedos without warhead (explosive part)

 42. Hull torpedoes (torpedoes without warhead - explosive part - and without homing head)

 43. Mines of all kinds

 44. Bombs of all kinds including the depth charges

 45. Handflammpatronen (petrol bombs perhaps)

 46. Hand grenades

 47. Pioneer explosive devices, hollow and adhesive charges as well as explosive demining equipment

 48. Sprengladungen for the weapons of number 43 (help needed)

 

28. Towers... I have seen Towers come up as a translation for "Turrets" before... so I suspect this means you cannot have a tank turret.

[matchlesswdg3]

Or does "Tower" mean a tank top?  These should all have been banned years ago!

[paul connor]

I thought I would add to this thread again as I have noticed some strange things in Germany that seem to contradict the regulations for armour and tracked vehicles.

Armour must be de-militarised: The Snatch Land Rover I restored and owned for a number of years now resides in Germany. This has not been subjected to cutting of armour and is still in standard form which I cannot understand as it is resistant to small arms fire.

Prohibited use of track vehicles on public roads: I have now seen for sale an M3 Halftrack which is road registered. Now this may be a grey area as it has road wheels, but then I saw a Haggland BV206 recently which was also road registered.

So now I am confused if tracked vehicles are indeed forbidden for public use after all. If you could register a BV206 or M3 why not a FV432?

It is a shame, as I would buy an FV432 today if I knew I could use it on the road. I do not mind the cutting of armour as long as it can retain the optic of the original, but to use only in a field is pointless for me and removes the majority of the enjoyment.

I am now trying, with my terrible grasp of German, to investigate further at the state department.