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johann morris

Armour in Germany and the Law

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On another forum, someone asked a question regarding a proposed new German law regrading owning of armoured vehicles. This was the reply from a German forum member.

"It is a new regulation with the War Weapon Control Law (Kriegswaffen Kontrollgesetz) It started in September 2018 and is active. If you have a motor vehicle, that is armored and fell under the war weapon law, you have to register it and ask for permission to own it. No matter it is deactivated cut armor, or not in driving condition.
You are not allowed to drive it or export it. Only on your own property. Storage is only allowed when you have a fence or a closed building around it. You are not allowed to let children under 18 acces to the vehicle. Every Armored vehicle, that is closed around the driver, and on the top of the driver fell under the war weapon law. If the police can simply shoot on the driver with normal ammunition, it is not under the law. Battle Tanks and Armored Self Propelled Howitzers are completly forbidden, you have to fill concrete into the engine compartment if you want to keep the. No driving allowed at all."

 

I wonder how long it will be before it is law in the whole EU.

 

Jon

 


 

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Children under 18 ! I had been working for 3 years then. Also what is the world coming to that such draconian requirements are put in place............

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the sooner we're out of the eu..................

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But will it make any difference, as I understand it, with the current deal we will have to abide by EU law and look what has happened with the deactivated gun laws. The future doesn't look too bright.

 

Jon

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1 hour ago, johann morris said:

But will it make any difference, as I understand it, with the current deal we will have to abide by EU law and look what has happened with the deactivated gun laws. The future doesn't look too bright.

 

Jon

You are most likely correct, but does it need to be. Non of these regulations are crucial to the overall trade between countries and would have no impact if we went our own way with laws regarding vehicles and deactivated guns.It would only have effect if items were moved over borders and only to the individuals involved.

I have no doubt we will still blindly follow the EU lead if democracy is respected and we leave. Surely this is when clubs and other representative groups can lobby to influence lawmaking in our country and stop these crazy snowflake laws? In a democratic country it would, we will have to wait and see.....

 

Iain

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I agree with all of the above but I would point out that Germany has had a requirement for some time that armoured vehicles have 'windows' cut in the frontal armour (which can be filled with sheet metal and disguised) so that the driver can be shot by a cop with a normal hand gun. This has only affected the UK if we need to export to Germany or to a lesser extent if we want to truck a vehicle through Germany. It has not soaked through to the rest of the EU (yet). I wonder how many times the German police have needed to shoot a driver ?

Possibly we should give Germany the credit for causing the invention of the tank and the production of the majority of vehicles that users of this forum play with for fun. In fairness though the far right is a much bigger force in Germany and there are huge social pressures built up there that are hard to understand from the UK.

David

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I don't know if this is true but someone has just posted that it is already proposed as a EU wide law.

How scary is that.

 

Jon

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I am quite surprised at the lack of interest in this subject as it will have major repercussions for our hobby and there must be quite a few people who would be financially affected if it were to become law in the UK. Maybe the subject title doesn't appear relevant enough to the UK.

 

Jon

Edited by johann morris

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If that is the case... how does this company sell armoured vehicles?

https://www.panzer-handel.de/

Presumably nothing they sell is covered by the scope of the law?

Tim

 

Edited by Packhow75

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they are, as the ad says, de-militarised to their current legislation. The armour has been cut and covered in thin sheet steel.

with all the brexit smoke and mirrors, a lot of stuff is no longer newsworthy.

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Regulations such as these do not have EU-wide application.......and will, per se, not have.  EU Directives DO have EU wide application but set out general principles on things like safety and security that each member country addresses in detail in its own laws.  Of course, the German regulations do set a precedent that has to be guarded against, which is where lobby groups like MVT come in to ensure common sense and fairness applies when evangelising (vote/glory seeking) politicians latch on to such daft ideas.  After all, the UK is suffering from a major wave of violent crime perpetrated by armour vehicle-driving hoodlums, isn't it?  Oh no, wait, its not.......its thugs stealing softskin JCBs that are ripping out ATMs, etc.!!  Ban JCBs!

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Out of interest does anyone know what existing or potential problem the German lawmakers think they are addressing? Is it anti-terrorist? anti- far-right? fear of public uprising? ...?

 - MG

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you all know why these laws are rearing their head, stop making it a political soap box moment and think about the real reasons.

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53 minutes ago, Ashcollection said:

you all know why these laws are rearing their head, stop making it a political soap box moment and think about the real reasons.

I don't see this being a "political soapbox moment" , merely legitimate concerns being discussed around developments that could impact our hobby.

The fact that lawmakers and politicians are the same, usually, and laws effect us, it is reasonable that background politics will be touched upon.

Maybe I'm missing something......

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yes I hear you Iain, I was commenting on the fact that the EU is jumped straight on without thinking through the real reason for the risk to our hobby.

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and yes I guess the reason for the risk is all political. If somebody hates another group of people for colour, religion, accent, language, I guess that's political. we are returning to an age of popularist leaders, and the polarizing of the right and left. and I'm sure you can think of some good popularist leaders from the past! that's enough of that. I like my tanks and want to keep them too!

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2 hours ago, TooTallMike said:

Out of interest does anyone know what existing or potential problem the German lawmakers think they are addressing? Is it anti-terrorist? anti- far-right? fear of public uprising? ...?

 - MG

remember the german pensioner with a running and driving WWII Panther IV (oh that by the way is probably worth millions) well, now they can legally confiscate that, and anything else worth having. strange how on one hand they are doing this, but sold off german army Leopards, Marders, and Gepards at knock down prices to anyone????????

 

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Playing the devil's advocate, just for a second - if someone with ill-intent (for whatever motive) obtains an intact fully-armoured military vehicle and is determined to do harm with it, exactly what are the authorities going to do to stop it?

If it's the choice between potentially having to deploy anti-tank weapons on the streets of Europe's towns & cities (and have them locally available, for use at a moment's notice, in the first place), or taking away a few people's toys, you know which way they're going to go...

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I for one don't see an EU conspiracy but I have a minimum of faith in democratic process especially when lawmakers are seeing their lucrative career path curtailed..

I am at a loss to think of an example of a collectors vehicle anywhere being taken and used unlawfully. No doubt I am wrong, but I can only think of stolen  military stock being a problem. A Marine Corp M60 that came to grief on a central barrier comes to mind.

Anyway, it's not happened yet and it would take a while for the law to come into force in Germany, if it does. Let's not get complacent though....

Happy days!

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neither do I, we need to keep our noses clean, and not be anti establishment or a bunch of loons honing around in old army vehicles, or we will end up being legitimate targets. Enjoy our freedoms. Don't forget that we are the exception, most in the world only get to play with a military vehicle when its a burnt our wreck on their high street.

but look up Marvin Heemeyer on the net, he made his own!

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We have to have a certain amount of faith in the public, as otherwise you end up in a country that apart from banning all knives used in the kitchen, will have to ban all cars and delevery trucks as used in various incidents in Nice, Barcellona, Germany and London. Otherwise governments will ban pavements, Christmas Fairs, sports events, walking outside your home. Then Ban drones and model aircraft or ban real aircraft over New York or other cities. Then Ban Cricket and Baseball bats and ban people with arms as thick as tree trucks! Etc

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Its all pretty easy to work out, its just a threat matrix and probability curve, you just don't want to end up in the wrong end of it haha

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Some one kindly sent me a link its all in German which I cant understand. if you scroll down about half way there is a list of forbidden items. I have google translated bits and it would seem that everything worth having is banned but you are allowed to breath.

 

https://www.bgbl.de/xaver/bgbl/start..._1547491088119

§4

Verbote

(1) Kindem und Jugendlichen ist der Umgang mit

unbrauchbar gemachten Kriegswaffen verboten.

(2) Der Umgang mit einer fahrfähigen unbrauchbar

gemachten Kriegswaffe der Nummer 24 der Kriegswaffenliste

oder mit einer fahrfähigen unbrauchbar gemachten

Panzerhaubitze der Nummer 31 der Kriegswaffenliste

ist verboten.

(3) Es ist verboten,

1. eine unbrauchbar gemachte Kriegswaffe der Nummern

29, 30, 37 oder 46 der Kriegswaffenliste für

Dritte erkennbar zu führen oder

2. mit einer fahrfähigen unbrauchbar gemachten

Kriegswaffe der Nummern 25 bis 28, 31 - ausgenommen

fahrfähige unbrauchbar gemachte Panzerhaubitzen

-und 33 der Kriegswaffenliste umzugehen.

Satz 1 Nummer 1 gilt nicht für die Verwendung bei Filmoder

Fernsehaufnahmen oder Theateraufführungen.

(4) Die zuständige Behörde kann im Einzelfall eine

Ausnahme von den Verboten der Absätze 1 bis 3

genehmigen, wenn besondere Gründe vor1iegen und

öffentliche Interessen nicht entgegenstehen.

 

These are the now forbidden items:

Quote:
IV. Kampffahrzeuge
24.Kampfpanzer
25.sonstige gepanzerte Kampffahrzeuge einschließlich der gepanzerten kampfunterstützenden Fahrzeuge
26.Spezialfahrzeuge aller Art, die ausschließlich für den Einsatz der Waffen der Nummern 1 bis 6 entwickelt sind
27.Fahrgestelle für die Waffen der Nummern 24 und 25
28.Türme für Kampfpanzer
V. Rohrwaffen

29.a)Maschinengewehre, ausgenommen solche mit Wasserkühlung,
b)Maschinenpistolen, ausgenommen solche, die als Modell vor dem 2. September 1945 bei einer militärischen Streitkraft eingeführt worden sind,
c)vollautomatische Gewehre, ausgenommen solche, die als Modell vor dem 2. September 1945 bei einer militärischen Streitkraft eingeführt worden sind,
d)halbautomatische Gewehre mit Ausnahme derjenigen, die als Modell vor dem 2. September 1945 bei einer militärischen Streitkraft eingeführt worden sind, und der Jagd- und Sportgewehre

30.Granatmaschinenwaffen, Granatgewehre, Granatpistolen
31.Kanonen, Haubitzen, Mörser jeder Art
32.Maschinenkanonen
33.gepanzerte Selbstfahrlafetten für die Waffen der Nummern 31 und 32
34.Rohre für die Waffen der Nummern 29, 31 und 32
35.Verschlüsse für die Waffen der Nummern 29, 31 und 32
36.Trommeln für Maschinenkanonen

VI.Leichte Panzerabwehrwaffen, Flammenwerfer, Minenleg- und Minenwurfsysteme

37.rückstoßarme, ungelenkte, tragbare Panzerabwehrwaffen
38.Flammenwerfer
39.Minenleg- und Minenwurfsysteme für Landminen

VII. Torpedos, Minen, Bomben, eigenständige Munition

40.Torpedos
41.Torpedos ohne Gefechtskopf (Sprengstoffteil)
42.Rumpftorpedos (Torpedos ohne Gefechtskopf - Sprengstoffteil - und ohne Zielsuchkopf)
43.Minen aller Art
44.Bomben aller Art einschließlich der Wasserbomben
45.Handflammpatronen
46.Handgranaten
47.Pioniersprengkörper, Hohl- und Haftladungen sowie sprengtechnische Minenräummittel
48.Sprengladungen für die Waffen der Nummer 43

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