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Triumph 3hw

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Hi I am new to these sort of thing but hope sum  one can help so here go's I have just got my self a 1941 triumph 3hw . It frame number lead. Me to it one of 150 sent to the RAF from August to September 1941 I like to find out more if possible but I donot have a v5 or number plate with it . The  number under the seat is for January 1941 if I am reading it right .I have strip the tank and found  earth brown  Air Force blue .

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Hi Andy ..Could you send some photos of the bike and the Frame number plus engine numbers and we will see what we can identify ..Nice to hear you found some original paint again photos would be nice ,

Jenkinov

 

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There were 82 bikes ordered for the RAF in 1941. Frame numbers TL 30841-TL 30922.  Ron

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Hi thank for your answers .The frame number is  T L 30307 ? but it hard to read till I strip the frame  engine number is 30  36451 .can I say I like all the help I can get as I like to put the bike back as it was ment to be as the frame has powder coated which I will be taking it of .I just like to say thank s for all the work the members of this forum do . As I said be for not to good at the iPad but when I work out how to send sum pic of the bike I will  thanks once moor for your help Andy

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TL 30307 is one of the last 3SW's  from 1941. Engine '3SW' 36451 is  from the previous contract in 1940. It sound like you have a sidevalve and not an OHV 3HW.........Need pictures!  Ron

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Hi Ron have not a lot af pics will take more in the week when I work out how to send them image.jpg.11c2d0d6b6716ac155ef251e7e5c0eca.jpgimage.jpg.3d6ad6e3f7d793100c3aba4c586625e8.jpg

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OK definitely a 3HW engine, forks and frame stamped TEC 7. 41  ('Triumph Engineering Co' July 1941) I think you need to clean up the frame/eng  numbers and post pictures.:thumbsup: Ron

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Ok will do the bike at my mates work shop so send more pics  in the week.I do have most of the bits to put it back together  as it was strip down as a bit of a off roader but never got used then I got it .just a few months ago .thank for your help Andy bike

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Hi Ron here are the pics you ask for of the frame and engine  numbers hope you can work them out thanks Andy Bike 

image.jpg

image.jpg

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Something is not right with these numbers? Frame TL 30307 is from contract C11465 which was 150 3SW.s supplied to the RAF

The first 3HW frame number was 30841. The frame numbers are not in line with the TL as if the original number has been obliterated. and the number looks a bit crude to me. 

Engine number 36451 is also from a 3SW  contract No C7162. Again the HW or whatever has been obliterated..

There is an original inspectors stamp on the crankcase.   

Maybe someone else would like to chip in?

 

Ron 

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Hi Ron I see what you  say if you look above the numbers  there look like  sum think bin rub out I donot  know when this was dune.  Do you or sumone know what may bring those numbers  out? . I will look for the other number that you said . Thank Andy Bike

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It's late so I will compare stamps when I get a chance tomorrow. But the engine case is definitely contract 7162 .the same contract as my triumph 3sw...if you look at the number to the left you can see a 3..I believe the obliterated character is a S ..so I believe the casing ,......if not the bottom end of the engine is from a 3sw....

The TEC 7  looks ok..but oddly the 41 looks slightly smaller ..I think that's a restamp..but my initial thought is wartime..

The frame number is clearly a restamp..the question which I can't answer immediately is if it's war time...the aspect i would highlight is that the triumph factory was destroyed mid contract 7162 in the Coventry  blitz and production was moved to the temporary factory at cape warwick...the first HWs weren't produced until Nov 41....

there may be other clues on the frame but we need to explore if it's a -3sw frame ?

The field stand mount was welded on the 3sw..often mounts have been  removed but the scars on the frame are the clue..can you take a photo of the tube framing on the left hand side of the bike that runs from  the seat post to The rear wheel ?

The bikes from contract 7162 mostly appear to have been issued to home based units . I have a complete bike plus an spare engine....a good friend has a 7162 frame fitted with a 5s engine ..there'sa complete bike in norway and I saw a 7162 engine advertised recently in Hungary ..

Suggest we look for the field stand mount as the next stage...

 

Jenkinov

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Jenk, this deserves some debate, and the research is fascinating. 

Firstly I also wondered about the crankcase being 3SW with a 3HW top and having checked the parts lists, they did indeed share the same crankcase, so I'm quite sure that's what Andy has. The previous owner just obliterated the SW.

As far as the frame goes.  The forks are definitely 3HW Webb forks and the date given (if not altered) could be either 3SW or 3HW.  But all the 3SW and 5SW frames that I've seen have the frame number stamped around the top bearing housing and not on the headstock like a 3HW has. (Of course I haven't seen all of them).

The field stand lug was NOT welded to the early 3SW's.  My parts list for contracts C8079 and C7162 shows the clamp plate F1938SW and bolts F1941SW. So I'm guessing they started welding them on at some point during 7162? My own 3SW is from an earlier contract and although it has the field stand clip lug welded to the frame, there is no evidence of a welded pivot lug.  

In this line up of 1939 bikes, you can see the clamp on the nearest 2-3 bikes if you zoom in.

I can't imagine what the previous owner of Andy's bike was up to, but in the easier days of cherished number plate dealings, it was common practice to use the same donor vehicle and just adjust the numbers to match a log book???  Ron 

Triumph Factory.jpg

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Here are some additional photos that Andy Bike sent in of the Frame and Gearbox ..Its Light So i can compare the photos with my own frame ....Comment to follow 

 

Jenkinov

image.jpg.f752762f5cc9fd51f757b582ba01282c.jpg

image.jpg.b0e07ffeed2eb82ff84459bb8cc92be7.jpg

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Observing the current post with interest...........this is not the first late-war 3HW I've seen with a much earlier "TEC" dated frame.................

We must always remember that 3SW production was fairly prolific pre-war and up to the end of 1940 when the Triumph factory was largely destroyed during the Coventry blitz.........Triumph were then basically "in-limbo" and operating very much on an ad-hoc/temporary basis until their new factory at Meriden was ready during early/mid-1942..........by then, 350cc OHV's were the flavour of the day with the WD as opposed to the earlier 350cc side-valves...............

I have no doubt whatsoever that Triumph, at the time of the factory's destruction during late-1940, had a substantial number of completed 3SW frames in stock, and probably more already supplied to the WD as "spares"............it would seem that the "TEC" dated stamp refers to the build-date of the frame, not the bike into which fitted...............I suspect that Triumph were able to salvage a fair quantity of already completed frames from the wreckage of their factory, added to those spares already held in WD ordnance stores, the model having been supplied pre-war too................this would also probably be the case with crankcases too...............

We must also consider wartime workshop rebuilds of Triumph's, with serviceable parts re-used in rebuilds............engine and frame stampings meant little to the WD as a bike was known entirely by it's primary identification serial ("C" number), nothing else...........if parts were interchangeable between earlier and late model's, then the WD would use them, regardless of origin or original purpose.................

As for the ad-hoc Triumph production in temporary premises in Warwick between 1941-42.............with reduced manufacturing capacity, most of the machines so constructed during this period were largely built up from existing stocks of parts, new castings and foundry facilities being limited in the extreme...............The OHV's constructed during this period were specifically noted in records as "3H", NOT the later "3HW"............and as we all know, the essentially pre-war 3H model differs from the later 3HW a fair bit in the top end of the engine department............................

As time continues to march on, I doubt if we will ever know the true answers for certain nowadays, but I think my summary is reasonably speculative...........Lol

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I have had some fun , fighting to get to my 3SW and examining the stamps and included photos new and old 

 

Firstly I examined the TEC7 41 on the seat post and the 4 is a good match so I feel confident the frame was July 1941 

So based on the dates I have produced after the Coventry Blitz in Warwick . 

The frame Number has the original TL . but has been re stamped , Triumph number 1s and 7s are quite distinctive and the stamping does not seem to match , we can see from the engine case that numbers have been altered , 

I have enclosed photos of my 3SW frame and the field stand lugs and clips ..again there is no immediate match , but i accept these mountings have often been removed 

I think the red herring is the Contract 7162 casing ,

My gut feel is we have a 3HW frame ,forks and engine ..At some point the engine casing has been damaged and the 3SW casing has been fitted 

The gearbox ..is all genuine but the number again appears  to late for a 3sw..

 

3HW...but re stamped .

 

Jenkinov 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5abaa983c101b_(KGrHqUOKiEE3Dp44melBN0Q2zBdn!_12.jpg.49b676f78b632658fd1a9fe512ae2593.jpgIMG_3954.JPG.542cac5cd34a2d1c0290826a85a8cbf6.JPG

Triumph 3 SW stand lugs .jpg

IMG_3851.JPG

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And here is my Coventry built 3SW. With frame number on the top bearing housing and repeated on the saddle tube (no date) and clamp on field stand. Obviously some changes occurred at the Warwick works.  Ron

3SW 004.jpg

3SW 006.jpg

3SW 103.jpg

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Hi can I thank you all for you help so far .I am hope to start  work on it after Easter .But. as it not got a V5 or reg number . I love to put it on the road but do not know if  there a way to do that ? Is there sum one on the forum that has had to do this for there bike can help  thanks 

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Posted (edited)

Yes I've done it loads of times. You first need to get a dating letter from the Triumph Owners Club or the Military Vehicle Trust. (Google Vehicle Verification for both) You will need form V55/5 from DVLA https://www.gov.uk/dvlaforms or best search their site for further info. No MOT or Insurance is needed nowadays to register a vehicle, But random inspections are sometime instigated by DVLA's appointed inspectorate (SGI) but it's nothing to worry about for genuine un-molested vehicles. 

However I don't know how any authority would view a frame number that looks like it might have been altered, which could result in a horrible 'Q' plate registration. Something to think about before any application is administered..   Ron

 

Sorry I altered the owners club as I was thinking of someone else:$

Edited by Ron

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I am a member of the Military Vehicle trust and they offer a vehicle verification service for non members for £150 however if you join .For paid up members of the MVT (£35 Single, £40 Joint) membership) who wish to have a vehicle verified, but with less than 12 months membership, there will be an additional fee of £35 (inc VAT)

For members of over 12 months the service is free ,..well one vehicle  a year,

An extract from their site is included .Its a great club with area meetings and events plus you may identify other local members with bikes who can give advice ..

..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Before an inspection can take place vehicles need to be 90% complete, 

running and up to MOT standard. 

The DVLA will not register an incomplete or un-roadworthy vehicle. 

If your vehicle is complete and roadworthy then we will require the following information and copies of your paperwork (please don't send originals):

1. Your Full Name (no abbreviations please)

 2. Your contact address.

 3. A signed letter requesting the verification.

 4. A contact telephone number and email address (if available) for the inspector to contact you on.

 5. The address where the vehicle will be inspected.

 6. Your MVT membership number (if applicable)

 7. Vehicle chassis/hull number

 8. Engine number

 9. Two clear recent photographs of the vehicle as it will be presented to our inspector.

10. A photograph of the chassis number.

 11. 4 x 1st Class Stamps

12. NOVA from HMRC (Copy please, not the original)

Please provide as much information as possible including the history of the vehicle, proof of ownership and any relevant copy documents, sales receipts etc. This may help with our verification/dating of the vehicle

...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Jenkinov

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Quite right Jenk but I had lost track of those extreme charges by the MVT for none members, in that case I'd probably try the TOC or VMCC first. As far as I've deduced,  a NOVA certificate will not be required. See this thread.  I have been a vehicle inspector for the MVT  Dorset area for many years, so picked up quite a bit of information, although DVLA do keep changing things.   Ron

 

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On another point the petrol tank looks as if its the earlier 3SW model . I believe this was used on a few HWs and then they moved to the version with the cut away corner . 

If you look at the photo in the factory that Ron posted you will note that the Triumph Badge is mounted on the top of the tank.

I note you have cleaned the tank , So you should have visible 2 holes , which are the mounting point for the badge .

 

Jenkinov

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Sright Jenk. The 3HW has the Vokes tube gully in the corner and 'TRIUMPH' transfers each side. The 3SW has a standard tank, but the WD version has only one metal badge....screwed in the middle. Ron 

3HW 082.jpg

3SW 164.jpg

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There is a certain amount of understanding at DVLA that ex-military vehicles (sold by the Government of course) often had re-stamped or altered frame numbers and that there were many unstamped new spares at the time.

There is no doubt that this is a 1940s WD Triumph frame so there is no question of it not being historic but you will need to proceed carefully.

You're either going to need a well-informed and sympathetic Owner's Club rep who is trusted by DVLA or otherwise perhaps the least well-informed club that they will accept, because with the best will in the world, no non one-make specialist is likely to pick up on the finer points of fonts in stampings.

The VMCC have the original factory records, but only after the Coventry bombing of course and they are bound to look the number up...

Be aware that DVLA officials do hang around the internet.

It's a delicate subject and you need to get it right first time and perhaps the worst thing that one can do is to present a vehicle with badly  re-stamped numbers.

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Thank for the info I think I have to work on what I need to do re reg.I do not mind if I can not get a reg for the bike .as long as there a way to get it insurance to show it later this year . All. So re the fuel tank I took it down to bear metal  and it look like these holes have bin filled will  body solider  as it was very  visible on top of the tank .But I just though the tank must of leak at sum time .

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