Another Thornycroft

[Richard Farrant 36]

On 2/17/2019 at 7:37 PM, BenHawkins said:

I like the idea of restoring this one as a commandeered lorry made into a mobile workshop. So when I saw this Austin lighting set I had to add it to the collection (I do like T head engines with separate cylinders).

It needs quite a lot of work as the water jackets are split, it has the wrong carb and has been converted to coil ignition. The dynamo is just as bad; seized, missing the rotor windings, commutator and brushes. Quite a lot of research to be done on this one too.

 

So it is a compound wound, 1200RPM 110Vdc 27A 3kW generator connected to what appears to be two cylinders from a 10HP 4 cylinder Austin built in 1914. Now I need to try to work out how the armature should be wound, I guess I should start by looking at the one in Duxford. Does anyone have any photos or information?

 

Hi Ben,

Have you seen this webpage?  http://www.austinmemories.com/styled-96/index.html

regards, Richard

[BenHawkins 13]

On 6/10/2019 at 7:35 PM, Richard Farrant said:

Hi Ben,

Have you seen this webpage?  http://www.austinmemories.com/styled-96/index.html

regards, Richard

Thanks Richard,

I had seen that and purchased a copy of the catalogue for the generators.

At Beaulieu I purchased an Austin pressure gauge to go with the generating set.

And a photo of a nice pair of Thornycrofts belonging to J Cooke and Sons (actually I negotiated for this photo to come free with some lamps purchased for my Singer).

 

 

[BenHawkins 13]

During our holiday we spent a day in Winchester looking through the Thornycroft records (the glamorous assistant is very good to me).

I thought this table of valve settings might help a few people out so have included it here.

 

Here is a general arrangement drawing of the T4 engine I need for this project (just in case somebody has one under their bench and does not know what it is).

 

And another drawing showing the magneto cabling arrangements. The switch was mounted in the centre of the dash, just below the oil flow indicator (has anyone got a photo showing the detail of these?). 

There were also drawings of all the gaskets and various other minor parts but we did not find any drawings of the more major components (pistons, cylinders, crank, crankcase etc.)

[BenHawkins 13]

Another really useful document in the archive was the Thornycroft monthly circular (staff magazine).

Here is a better photo of one of the BT chassis for CP&Co

 

And in the background a CP&Co on it's way to war service.

The magazine is full of information and gives details that explain one of the holes in the chassis is for the odometer and drive (which is then obvious in the first photo).

[BenHawkins 13]

There was a lubrication diagram.

 

The monthly circular also confirms there was an instruction book and a copy sent to all agents and with every chassis so I should continue to look out for one. Further references confirmed that the T4 engine was also used in large numbers for marine and generator applications.

[Tomo.T 13]

On 9/22/2019 at 8:13 PM, BenHawkins said:

On 9/22/2019 at 8:13 PM, BenHawkins said:

 

I thought this table of valve settings might help a few people out so have included it here.

 

Thanks for this Ben, a very useful document. I note there are two different versions of M4 settings, one having a 2" larger flywheel. My initial thoughts are that the latter settings are for the M4 engines fitted to the early Q types. I wonder if the given figures were merely altered to suit the larger flywheel, or was an attempt being made to extract more power from the old engine ?  The fact that different degree settings are listed might indicate the latter ?

 

 

[BosunAl 11]

On 9/22/2019 at 12:27 PM, BenHawkins said:

Another really useful document in the archive was the Thornycroft monthly circular (staff magazine).

Here is a better photo of one of the BT chassis for CP&Co

 

And in the background a CP&Co on it's way to war service.

The magazine is full of information and gives details that explain one of the holes in the chassis is for the odometer and drive (which is then obvious in the first photo).

Does anyone know if the Thornycroft monthly circular (staff magazine) archives are available online?

Bosun Al

[BenHawkins 13]

On 9/26/2019 at 10:28 PM, BosunAl said:

Does anyone know if the Thornycroft monthly circular (staff magazine) archives are available online?

Bosun Al

I don't believe they are. I didn't even know they existed until we found some on the shelf in the archive.

[BenHawkins 13]

Although I have not done particularly well at finding parts for this project I have just managed to find one of the instruction manuals for "T" Type as described in the Thornycroft Monthly Circular.

Page 1 would have given the revision date. It is unfortunately missing but is probably one of the least useful pages in the book.

Page 3 gives the chassis dimensions and maximum permitted body dimensions.

Examples of the three lighter weight chassis are given on page 4&5

 

And one of CP&Co BT vans is shown on page 6. It always seems to be the same picture of van 250 that appears in the adverts.

[Minesweeper 17]

Nice find, Ben!

Tony

 

 

[BenHawkins 13]

Now you can just switch headlights on it is easy to overlook how important lighting up tables must have been.

Owners are advised to arrange for a vehicle to have regular periods in the shed.

 

Some more driving instructions

[BenHawkins 13]

Some good pictures of the T4 engine; perhaps somebody has one in their shed.

 

Further information on the engine and some good views of the crankcase.

 

A little information on fault finding

 

A good view of the steering column detail, fuel tank and oil indicator.

[BenHawkins 13]

Flywheel, clutch and universal joints.

Gearbox, steering gear and brakes.

 

Care of the back axle

 

Side view of chassis

[BenHawkins 13]

And for me, this is where is gets most interesting. Parts diagram showing the cylinder block with fixed head and inlet over exhaust valve arrangement.

 

Crankshaft, camshaft, oil pump etc.

Oil pipes, magneto couplings etc.

 

Flywheel, clutch etc. This does not show the fan blades on the flywheel (visible on earlier photo).

 

 

[BenHawkins 13]

Gearbox. The N/S and O/S gearbox mountings look identical in the photo but have different part numbers.

 

And quite a few parts to go inside the gearbox.

 

Footbrake components

 

And some of the parts on the outside of the gearbox

 

 

[BenHawkins 13]

Front Axle. At least I have most of these parts. I think this shape of axle cap (Part number 55312) is only seen on the T4 Thornycroft.

The back axle built up in three layers is another feature that seems unique to the T4.

 

A sliding block rear universal joint is used. I am missing this but as it is similar to the one I made on the 1914 Dennis at least I have had some practice. 

 

Brake drums and blocks. 

 

[BenHawkins 13]

Steering column detail showing worm and nut steering box.

 

A selection of parts. Many of these I have, but it is good to have detail of the front cross member. 

Bonnet rest etc.

 

And finally the radiator, this appears to show that I have the correct radiator.

 

Although pretty good this parts book still appears to miss quite a few parts such as the exhaust silencer.

Period literature described the T4 as a "J type in miniature"; although this might be true for the chassis construction there are many differences in the rest of the vehicle.

At least we have a better idea of what all the missing parts should look like and therefore stand a chance of identifying them.

[lynx42 Rick Cove 13]

On 2/18/2019 at 6:37 AM, BenHawkins said:

Wow, it has been a year since the chassis arrived and I have only really managed to do research!

I like the idea of restoring this one as a commandeered lorry made into a mobile workshop. So when I saw this Austin lighting set I had to add it to the collection (I do like T head engines with separate cylinders).

It needs quite a lot of work as the water jackets are split, it has the wrong carb and has been converted to coil ignition. The dynamo is just as bad; seized, missing the rotor windings, commutator and brushes. Quite a lot of research to be done on this one too.

So it is a compound wound, 1200RPM 110Vdc 27A 3kW generator connected to what appears to be two cylinders from a 10HP 4 cylinder Austin built in 1914. Now I need to try to work out how the armature should be wound, I guess I should start by looking at the one in Duxford. Does anyone have any photos or information?

 

I have one of the Austin engines.  It is No. 136 with a hand etched ID plate.  It has a cast steel engine base so probably was not a generating set.  I found it in Mallacoota Victoria in 1976 and only managed to acquire it last year.  It is complete but I haven't got it rinning as yet.  Not sure what the radiator should be like either..  The generator is just sitting there to fill up space.

[BenHawkins 13]

On 10/11/2019 at 11:41 PM, lynx42 Rick Cove said:

I have one of the Austin engines.  It is No. 136 with a hand etched ID plate.  It has a cast steel engine base so probably was not a generating set.  I found it in Mallacoota Victoria in 1976 and only managed to acquire it last year.  It is complete but I haven't got it rinning as yet.  Not sure what the radiator should be like either..  The generator is just sitting there to fill up space.

Thanks, I missed this at the time you posted it. Another interesting project.

[BenHawkins 13]

This week I purchased a set of patterns for the Austin generating set cylinder blocks. These blocks were also used on the early (1910-1912) Austin 10hp car. There is frost damage to my blocks but they are probably repairable (as the engine runs I doubt they are cracked through to the bores). It seemed too good an opportunity to pass up and they are a great example of pattern making.

Front half of the cylinder block. There are lots of core prints for the cylinders and water jacket. Note the loose pieces to make up the flange held in place with bent nails. The sand will be built up over the loose pieces and the nails removed before the box is completely filled; otherwise an additional core box would be required for this feature.

 

The back side of the cylinder block. If both sides were the same this one would not be required.

 

This core box makes up the cylinder bore, valve ports and combustion head.

 

These two make up the core boxes for the water jacket. No sand goes on the green prints; which shows where the two loose pieces go; note the small loose piece at the bottom left of the upper box. These cores would be challenging to pack and quite fragile when completed so must have taken a skilled moulder.

They came from a foundry in Kings Heath when it closed some decades ago so could be the originals used to make my engine.

I thought other people who have resorted to making their own patterns could learn a lot from these! If anyone wants a dummy generator we could cast some blocks for mounting on a wooden crankcase (or make all the other parts if you like a real challenge).

 

[Citroman 19]

I did a find lot of wooden forms on a Belgian fleamarket once. I did buy an bearing of an overhead driveshaft from a factory. It was painted to look like cast iron even the screws putting the halves together were made of wood. 😊

[BenHawkins 13]

14 minutes ago, Citroman said:

I did a find lot of wooden forms on a Belgian fleamarket once. I did buy an bearing of an overhead driveshaft from a factory. It was painted to look like cast iron even the screws putting the halves together were made of wood. 😊

We refitted a lineshaft to our kitchen last weekend; currently it is just ornamental and there are no plans for a flat belt driven apple lathe or mixer but I like to keep option open.

[Citroman 19]

Nice one...😄

[8_10 Brass Cleaner 12]

Did you buy them off another Ben perchance?

If you did his Fowler road locomotive is looking very nice indeed. I saw it on Friday (socially distanced of course)

[BenHawkins 13]

Yes, they were from Ben. I need to organise a trip to see the Fowler next time I have an excuse to be in that area.