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BenHawkins

Another Thornycroft

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4 hours ago, BenHawkins said:

After chasing down the origin of this document it appears to have been found at Kew so I believe it is OK to share it here (hopefully attached to this message).

 

War Office Disposals, 1919.pdf

Very interesting list and not one Albion to be see.  Is there such a list for SLOUGH Disposal area as I believe that my truck Albion A10 Chassis No. 361A went through a firm who may have been C J & L O SMITH (or something similar) before returning to the Albion factory to be rebuilt.

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Ben thanks for posting this interesting document. It must be noted that this was by no means a complete list of the vehicles laid up at Kempton Park, this was more a snapshot of the lorries surplus to requirements and offered for sale at that time. Most of them are early models and of unusual types. For instance there are no J type Thornycrofts listed at all. Also previously mentioned no Albions either. Current models were, I suggest, being retained for spares or repair and the vast majority of these were moved to waste ground at Iver ( near Slough) to clear the racecourse after the personal intervention of HRH King George V.

Tomo

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I am still in research mode for this project. Tim has sent me an amazing photo of one of these T4 engine vans, originally purchased by L&NWR but commandeered by the War Office. It confirms the radiator (without Thornycroft cast into the header tank) is correct, and shows enough detail of the missing tubular front cross member that I could remanufacture it.

Also arriving this week was a pack of photocopies from the Beaulieu Motoring Research Service:

1. Progressive Number Register. This shows all 40 Thornycroft chassis supplied to Carter Paterson; but in some cases the model and chassis numbers differ from those stated in the transcript that was available on the Hampshire website.

2. July 1916 Catalogue. Giving detailed specification of the AT and BT Model and also dimensions for the different body options. It states the BT was "For a Net Load of 2 Tons in an open lorry body, or 35 CWT in a van body" and "Weight: 37cwt. In full running order full up with fuel , water &c."

3. 1922 BT Instruction Book and Illustrated Parts Book. Although later and fitted with the AB4 engine it seems similar in general construction detail.

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I have recently purchased a few early Thornycroft commercial photos:

A 50cwt M2 engine chain drive. 1911 for Dunlop Pneumatic tyre company, nice to see they used solid tyres on their delivery lorries.

Thornycroft1.jpg.9b9d9ef7c4c5f3289a779f35810bf6c1.jpg

 

A set of lighter weight M2 engine chain drive vans (single rear tyres) for Cadbury.

Thornycroft2.jpg.960995595ee6d1a62e20936bef43e788.jpg

 

Another 50cwt M2, this time for Walsall Co-Op.

Thornycroft3.jpg.a28044a3696dbeee987b87a63d9b4504.jpg

Probably around 1911, I don't know much about this one but once again it has twin rear tyres. I particularly like the roof rack.

Thornycroft4.jpg.4e635c78c7ea6b18cf5092ae8a05e19f.jpg

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Another 50cwt M2 but for Winchester brewery.

Thornycroft5.jpg.4ccf6efa0eba2ea81ec09ae098194657.jpg

 

A later tipper from Birmingham (probably mid 1920s)

Thornycroft6.jpg.3f9dc256cf3b3f00de78158516ac583a.jpg

 

Along with those photos came this one, a rail inspection car is listed in the Thornycroft register but I can't confirm this is it.

1664100255_RailCar.jpg.2bb3045ef4182d03c6eb417e963104bb.jpg

 

I am confident this one is not a Thornycroft. The shape of the radiator is similar to that of a Karrier but this would be a very early one. Any ideas?

Unknown.jpg.d24c0cf1b112f85be5dda9c5fede25f3.jpg

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Here is some more information on the T/4 engine I am missing. 3.1/2" bore, 5.1/2" stroke four cylinder monobloc giving a maximum of about  30hp. Perhaps you have one in your shed getting.

T4.thumb.jpg.499afbfd0fdde86c82e6354af9532ad4.jpg

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4 hours ago, BenHawkins said:

 

Ben . . . Would it be possible to include the 1918 Catalogue on the site . . . or at least the specs for the AT and BT?

Al

 

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Thanks for posting the war office disposals list... another part of the Leyland puzzle exposed.

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Excellent research material.  I wonder how much of these vehicles were of  donated items considering the range of makes. Particular the cars and lighter vehicles that became ambulances etc.

We can only wait and hope  more lists like this surface. 

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I only have pages that show information on the BT. Hopefully as I do more research more information will turn up that I can post here.

The specifications page has plenty of useful information:

specification.thumb.jpg.1f14f83ee5eb694825736239b25cd77c.jpg

 

A page showing types of vehicle built on the BT and AT chassis.

Vehicles.thumb.jpg.1f565ccbb129735bf6b3e22d1ffb0b43.jpg

 

And a page showing the tools supplied with Thornycroft vehicles.

Tools.thumb.jpg.282d3c59d12fb2127360c41962400d02.jpg

 

I decided to start putting the tool kit together but so far only have the 10-in shifter and 7/16-in x 1/2-in Thornycroft spanner.

IMG_4478s.thumb.jpg.d32a18b128fa989e9b59eb03c4db5c3f.jpg

 

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Ben . . . Thanks for printing the specs and images.  Such material is hard to find and is greatly appreciated.  Have spent many hours on HathiTrust.com looking for suchy material with little to show for it!

Regards . . .

 

Al

 

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I will keep posting things as I find them.

If it was a Brasso lorry there would be an obligation for excessive polishing.

The photos of BT lorries show a four spoke coated steering wheel. Blumels patented a celluloid coated steering wheel in 1911; the hub is aluminium and the rim is a steel tube. I picked one up this week; it might be a little small at 14" diameter but I am sure it will work if nothing else turns up.

 

IMG_4479s.thumb.jpg.bc629653b13638f5e8e78ed0d6c72626.jpg

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I am still trying to discover as much information on this vehicle as possible. As part of our holiday we booked in to spend a day looking at Thornycroft drawings and records held by the Hampshire Cultural Trust (I take the glamorous assistant to the most romantic locations). I took over three hundred photos of original documents but do not have permission to publish any of them here (yet). We will need to go back as I think we only got through half the boxes of drawings.

The Beaulieu autojumble was also quite useful. I spent slightly too long looking at this photo so the guy on the stand decided I needed it. I don't know anything about "Maid of Kent" tea but they seem to have been loyal Thornycroft customers.

IMG_4853s.thumb.jpg.7363da7b209e697ef0810a822025b3fc.jpg

 

All my Thornycroft parts books show an Enots type petrol filter (without a tap as used on my Dennis lorries) so it was nice to pick one of those up.

IMG_4854s.thumb.jpg.100eb51105bb8ecd45f658a13fdf0f02.jpg

All the greasers on the Thornycroft are "Rotherhams of Coventry". I have been buying every one I have seen for the last 12 years for the Dennis projects; each one uses around 80 greasers so finishing the 1908 Dennis will virtually exhaust my stocks. We picked up three to put towards the Thornycroft project, so around another 70 to go.

IMG_4855s.thumb.jpg.f321ee3b0e0f70e8b3ef360257bc2502.jpg

 

We discussed this Carter Paterson sign with the vendor and showed them a couple of photos of the projects. They decided we needed all the help we could get (probably psychiatric) and offered me a good discount.

IMG_4857s.thumb.jpg.e302aa81c695d148121392e742925227.jpg

 

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I have been buying any early items with Carter Paterson asset tags since I purchased the 1908 Dennis. The Dennis had spade brackets that fit to one side of the side lamps. CP&Co most commonly seem to have used George Grou lamps and checking my stocks I found I had two (fairly poorly) CP&Co stirrup mount lamps; the correct fitment for a Thornycroft. I found another complete Grou side lamp but with the spade mount at the rear (wrong for a Dennis or Thornycroft) to use as a donor. My shelf also had two Grou rear lamps so one can be used on the Thornycroft.

My understanding is that this size of van was used between CP&Co depots (local pickups still being by horse van) and as such no acetylene headlamps were fitted. Only the larger lorries (travelling to Brighton every night for example) were fitted with acetylene lamps.

IMG_4862s.thumb.jpg.287bd72870bfb519d44f7edc3a956ece.jpg

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In the selection of drawings we looked at in Hampshire were marinised versions of the T4 engine; this explains where at least some of the engine numbers not in the production registers went.

This book for the marinised version of the M1 M2 and M4 engines; I don't think it is of use to anyone with a J Type but I can scan it in if anyone has a boat project in the shed!

IMG_4872s.thumb.jpg.23b319c082fb1e92aa84534c7947c643.jpg

 

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I have a marinised M4. It would be interesting to have a copy of the manual to compare particularly for the starting mechanism.. Mine has a chain drive fron the front pulley to shaft running along the top of the engine with a small crank handle then attached.Overall condition is not good.

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On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 8:37 PM, nz2 said:

I have a marinised M4. It would be interesting to have a copy of the manual to compare particularly for the starting mechanism.. Mine has a chain drive fron the front pulley to shaft running along the top of the engine with a small crank handle then attached.Overall condition is not good.

Sorry it has taken so long; a scan of the book is attached.

Thornycroft M Engines.pdf

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Wow, it has been a year since the chassis arrived and I have only really managed to do research!

I decided to have a scrub at the side of the chassis to see if I could find the chassis number in this location. No luck, but after rubbing through the top layer of greyish paint the Carter Paterson red is exposed.

IMG_5102s.thumb.jpg.2bb5bea641c56ed0c679f705c29f387e.jpg

I like the idea of restoring this one as a commandeered lorry made into a mobile workshop. So when I saw this Austin lighting set I had to add it to the collection (I do like T head engines with separate cylinders).

IMG_5092s.thumb.jpg.6383d83c3b7150289f58818039a60e5f.jpg

It needs quite a lot of work as the water jackets are split, it has the wrong carb and has been converted to coil ignition. The dynamo is just as bad; seized, missing the rotor windings, commutator and brushes. Quite a lot of research to be done on this one too.

IMG_5095s.thumb.jpg.367d57e693a90392ca71339a100803b8.jpg

So it is a compound wound, 1200RPM 110Vdc 27A 3kW generator connected to what appears to be two cylinders from a 10HP 4 cylinder Austin built in 1914. Now I need to try to work out how the armature should be wound, I guess I should start by looking at the one in Duxford. Does anyone have any photos or information?

 

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On 2/17/2019 at 7:37 PM, BenHawkins said:

Now I need to try to work out how the armature should be wound,

It is very odd that the windings are missing. If they had been taken for scrap then I would not expect the set to be re-assembled. 

There is a fair chance that my flywheel magneto remagnetiser can refresh the magnets, if there are any.

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