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Russians recover Shermans

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I think that makes 3 recovered from that ship, I have seem pictures of another 1 ashore on the dock. I wonder where they are now. Pity nothing can be recovered from the Thistlegorm. Great information, a good use of utube.

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7 minutes ago, john1950 said:

I think that makes 3 recovered from that ship, I have seem pictures of another 1 ashore on the dock. I wonder where they are now. Pity nothing can be recovered from the Thistlegorm. Great information, a good use of utube.

Looking from a purely financial viewpoint, leaving everything on in-situ on Thistlegorm makes more sense to the local economy: The recovered object can be sold by the locals just once, but divers will return over and over again and keep paying good money to see the cargo in-situ.

Its worth remembering Egypt is a poor country and right now needs the tourist revenue...I digress...

I do have accurate 3D data of the cargo - is there anything specific you need to look at in detail?

I used measurements read from the 3D model to confirm the ID of a vehicle from hold four thats now mostly rotted away on the seabed, leaving the engine block and axles as a reminder of what was. It was the dimensions of those parts - measured here in the comfort of my office - that helped with the confirmation.

So if you want any measurements or details checking, just let me know.

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I can see the benifits of leaving items in place, the other side is if some were recovered a land based perminent museum would have benifits as well. I am still trying to come up with a plausible suggestion  for the mystery item in hold one.

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Well, first of all those vehicle remains if recovered would last maybe 30 minutes above water before they turn into brown dust, unless a long-term (and expensive) conservation program is undertaken which involves keeping them submerged in water of which the salt levels are slowly reduced over the course of 3-4 years.

And even if that would be done, all that would be left are some rusted frames and parts of relatively common trucks nobody except weirdo's like us would be interested in, all kept in an expensive building with a paid staff etc... Whilst now they attract lots of people that may not have an interest in military items as such, but just want to dive to wrecks. They would be mad to try to recover that cargo!

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Sorry my throw away comment took post off topic. Someone in Russia has very deep pockets.

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Those Shermans want dumping back into a freshwater lake for 10 years. In the sea, salt leaches into the metal. I know someone did this with an engine block that had been used as sea anchor. Pretty much impossible to stabilise the metal after that without reversing the process. I had a couple of years in the metal conservation industry. A tank of sodium carbonate solution is better like they did with the whole submarine "Holland 1". There is some reference to it here;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Holland_1

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The Panzerschreck? That was an electrolysis bath. Great for rust but it doesn't neutralize the saline crystals imbedded in the metal.

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I wonder how the guys who restored the Stug IIIG in the UK got on a some years ago? Its the one thats running and last seen by me at Duxford.

This Stug IIIG came from the ship sunk off Crimea

What process did they employ?

Edited by LarryH57

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1 hour ago, LarryH57 said:

I wonder how the guys who restored the Stug IIIG in the UK got on a some years ago? Its the one thats running and last seen by me at Duxford.

This Stug IIIG came from the ship sunk off Crimea

What process did they employ?

The Black Sea - the water surrounding Crimea - has differing salinity levels to the seas around our shores (for example). Below certain depths its anoxic - lacking oxygen - and together these factors would really limit corrosion, either whilst submerged or after recovery.

So it might have been a quick wash down and buff up with WD-40 and it was good to go...

Edited by SimonBrown

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amazing to think those shermans were brand new when the ship was torpedoed. They basically went from the factory to the sea-floor. supposedly 32 in total, so 29 still down there.  I wonder how many more they will winch up, but in 2015 when they pulled up the first one,   story said there were 2 more that "could be recovered"?

 here's the first one

0_110f04_b2e8b740_orig-1600x1200.jpg

0_111f3f_30d463d_orig.jpg0_111f70_a356e4d5_orig.jpg

 

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Under the laws of salvage, does a lost/sunk government owned ship and its cargo not remain the property of that government regardless of age?

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1 hour ago, Chris Hall said:

Under the laws of salvage, does a lost/sunk government owned ship and its cargo not remain the property of that government regardless of age?

Could be, but wouldn't leand/lease make a difference?

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5 hours ago, Chris Hall said:

Under the laws of salvage, does a lost/sunk government owned ship and its cargo not remain the property of that government regardless of age?

Short answer is 'depends'.

If Merchant Navy then the ship will have an owner, who in turn may have insured it against loss. 

The cargo would have been owned by someone, who in turn may have insured it against loss.

If insured and duly paid out, then the insurance company will own whatever is on the seabed. Uninsured losses remain the property of their owners.

If a warship, then the government/country it served.

Thats my very basic understanding, but maritime law will be more complex in the detail.

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Slightly off-topic, since Simon, I think covered the main stuff better than I would have. I do know if it's a US Navy Aircraft, at least for grate lake salvage, if you recovered a downed plane, the US Navy claims they still own all Navy aircraft lost, and in one case confiscated an F4F that was recovered.  

 

 

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looks like they got at least 3 from this latest effort, maybe 4 .  AFA ownership, any military vehicle recovered in Russia, or Russian territorial waters,  is property of the government.  In this case, it's their Navy doing the recovery.

Must not be too rusty if they could spin the turrets around.

Russian.JPG

Edited by draganm
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As has been said previously, they'll need proper treatment if they've been in salt water.  Holland 1 was originally just recovered and sat outside, I went round her at the time.  Not long after, the hull started delaminating like an onion skin.

Andy

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well here's one of the Shermans, and an M3 they pulled out of the ocean last year, clanking around in a WW2 victory day parade. 

https://sputniknews.com/military/201905091074855716-old-us-tanks-parade/

Quote

 

Two painstakingly restored American-made tanks, recovered from the Barents Sea, have joined their historical Soviet counterparts in this year's Victory Day parade in central Murmansk on Thursday.

One of the tanks was an M3 Lee, recovered from the Barents Sea off northern Russia in July 2018 after spending decades some 50 metres below the sea surface near the Murmansk coast. The other was a Sherman, the Western Allies' main battle tank during World War 2. The US sent nearly 1,400 M3s and 4,100 Shermans to the USSR during the war. This was the M3's first-ever appearance at a Victory Day parade in the city.

 

 

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