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DFC1943Fl.Lt.

GMPG. Gimpy

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Hi all and Happy New Year, for tomorrow. I am in the process of making my Series 3 109 landy into a reccy. Just getting all the bits and bobs together and now looking at the correct weapon for her. I have a bren but know that's not the one, even though it is a 1957 model. Looking at the GIMPY but can't find a deac and if I did most likely could not afford it. Been looking at the ones on ' Military Muckabouts ' and seem quite reasonable at £325 for a replica. Had a chat with them and they are very helpful as I want one with the wooden stock not the resin or plastic type. They can supply with the wooden looking stock. Has anyone here had any dealings with them as I have heard stories about their replicas but there again have heard the same with 'Crossfire'. Any help would be appreciated. Maybe someone has one for sale.    

Edited by DFC1943Fl.Lt.

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Hi WW and thanks for your reply. Can you elaborate on why it was so bad. I've heard that the MM are better than the Crossfire replicas but I do understand that to make an exact replica is going to be out of the reach of most. I've seen one on D & B and that was 2 grand but say it was hard to tell the difference. It is hard to tell from their web page as with all sites I have looked on so this is why I'm asking here for guidance.

Many thanks Steve.

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Well, 'Military Muckabouts' appear to have just two tools a grinder and a MIG welder. The wooden butt had been ground out of a lump of wood, So much so you could tell that the grinder was right handed by the way he ground the tapering serrations in the rear butt face. On a real GPMG the body has various rivets to hold it together on mine they were represented by blobs of weld. The slotted muzzle had been slotted with a slitting saw disc. This meant the groves were to narrow and not even parallel. The end of the barrel was from an eccentric welded washer. The sight was rubbish and the resin cast cover was to short in both directions. The barrel was made of pipe with no turned taper. I did wonder if it had been primed underneath the matt black paint

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Whittingham warrior said:

Well, 'Military Muckabouts' appear to have just two tools a grinder and a MIG welder. The wooden butt had been ground out of a lump of wood, So much so you could tell that the grinder was right handed by the way he ground the tapering serrations in the rear butt face. On a real GPMG the body has various rivets to hold it together on mine they were represented by blobs of weld. The slotted muzzle had been slotted with a slitting saw disc. This meant the groves were to narrow and not even parallel. The end of the barrel was from an eccentric welded washer. The sight was rubbish and the resin cast cover was to short in both directions. The barrel was made of pipe with no turned taper. I did wonder if it had been primed underneath the matt black paint

 

 

Cheers for that, duly noted. Looks like I may have another look at Crossfires version. Really difficult to get a true feel for these looking at pictures.

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6 hours ago, DFC1943Fl.Lt. said:

Hi all and Happy New Year, for tomorrow. I am in the process of making my Series 3 109 landy into a reccy. Just getting all the bits and bobs together and now looking at the correct weapon for her. I have a bren but know that's not the one, even though it is a 1957 model. Looking at the GIMPY but can't find a deac and if I did most likely could not afford it. Been looking at the ones on ' Military Muckabouts ' and seem quite reasonable at £325 for a replica. Had a chat with them and they are very helpful as I want one with the wooden stock not the resin or plastic type. They can supply with the wooden looking stock. Has anyone here had any dealings with them as I have heard stories about their replicas but there again have heard the same with 'Crossfire'. Any help would be appreciated. Maybe someone has one for sale.    

Deac GPMGs were in the £2-3000 range until the law changed and now they have to be welded solid before they can be sold. I dare say that unless there is a massive surplus of GPMGs turn up, we won’t see any current EU deacs. There are also a lot of FN MAGs out there from India with crude L7 markings so something to watch out for. Also some of the replica/paintball GPMGs are actually M240 replicas which are similar.

im also not sure if there was ever a wood butt for the British built (Enfield) L7, but I’d imagine the original FN built L7s probably did before being rebuilt by Enfield.

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Back again, been looking at a Airsoft version of this weapon which looks quite realistic. M240 Bravo. Have enquired about one but seems you have to be a member of a 'Skirmish' / 'Paintball' outfit before they can sell it to you. Looks like I need a UKARA membership number before they will sell. Anyone know of another way to buy an airsoft, these M240B do look the biz. 

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I've used the MVT card before now, reason for purchase display on a military vehicle. Never had a problem, I have a number of realistic airsoft replicas. .  

Edited by Tony B

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7 hours ago, Tony B said:

I've used the MVT card before now, reason for purchase display on a military vehicle. Never had a problem, I have a number of realistic airsoft replicas. .  

Hi Tony, yes I've used my MVT card before to buy some of the deac's and replicas I have but when I mentioned this to the gentleman at Airsoft UK he said that it may not be sufficient to comply with the UKARA rules concerning Airsoft. Anyway I have been in touch with Barry from D & B Militaria and they have a replica that is virtual impossible to tell from the real thing, it strips, dry fires and is one hell of a replica, you need to see it to believe it. Now although it costs, deep breath, £2,750 I know its a lot of money but you need to look at this GPMG on their site. I have been looking for a deac GPMG for some time now and there just ain't any about. Having said that if there were I'm sure they would be one hell of a price now but also welded up solid so this is a way of getting as close to the real thing without the hassle of all the s**t that goes with it. Have a look at it on their site and see what you think.

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I dont know about the GPMG but I've had a 30 cal, 50 cal and bazooka from Crossfire and they have been good quality as far as replica's go.  I went to collect the guns and they are a proper engineering company.  I know they also supply some of the current army regiments for recruiting purposes.  Also spotted on the credits on guy martins ww1 tank that they supplied the replica Lewis guns.  I guess they can't be that bad!

I've heard worrying things about MM but by and large good things about Crossfire.  A few of my mates have bought from them and they seemed happy with what they had.  But they are replicas so don't expect like for like quality against a deact.

Just my thoughts.

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At £2750 I'd be inclined to ask if Manroy are still in the business of making you a de-ac.

Andy

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1 hour ago, andym said:

At £2750 I'd be inclined to ask if Manroy are still in the business of making you a de-ac.

Andy

Hi Andy, thanks for the info. Never heard of them but will look into it. Do they make replicas for the public then or are they a government forces company designed to make live firing weapons for the military.  

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The requirment for Reailstic Imitation Firearms, ie proper coloured airsoft or BB . is membership of an organisation with third party public liability insurance. I am also a member of the Countryside Alliance. That has a third party members insurance that specifically mentions shooting sports and military re-enactments. 

As MVT now have a member's public liability insurance it covers. I can understand a supplier doing Due Dilligence to cover their own backside. 

You'd need to meet the same criteria to buy a RIFF Realistic Imitation Firearm, unless it was Rainbow colour, and would commit an offence under the Violent Crime Reduction Act by re painting it. So you see what a total load of Bovine Offal the system is ?

Edited by Tony B

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1 minute ago, Tony B said:

The requirment for Reailstic Imitation Firearms, ie proper coloured airsoft or BB . is membership of an organisation with third party public liability insurance. I am also a member of the Countryside Alliance. That has a third party members insurance that specifically mentions shooting sports and military re-enactments. 

As MVT now have a member's public liability insurance it covers. I can understand a supplier doing Due Dilligence to cover their own backside. 

Yes Tony right on all accounts, I think he is covering his own backside just to be sure. All these new EU laws have really ruined the collecting of deac's and alike. I'd love anyone to get one of my deac's live firing again, tell you what, I wouldn't want to be near them when they pull the trigger. LOL.

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15 hours ago, DFC1943Fl.Lt. said:

Hi Andy, thanks for the info. Never heard of them but will look into it. Do they make replicas for the public then or are they a government forces company designed to make live firing weapons for the military.  

Manroy are the UK manufacturer of GPMGs and at one stage they would sell you a de-ac brand new from the factory. 

Andy

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I suspect the repro DandB have is either made by Manroy or one of the Ex employees. Many of the parts look to be original and the cost reflects that.

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20 hours ago, Tony B said:

As MVT now have a member's public liability insurance it covers. I can understand a supplier doing Due Dilligence to cover their own backside. 

Just read this on https://www.mvt.org.uk/joining

Airsoft/ Deactivated weapons
The MVT Public Liability Insurance does not cover the purchase or use of deactivated and airsoft weapons.

 

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26 minutes ago, MatchFuzee said:

Just read this on https://www.mvt.org.uk/joining

Airsoft/ Deactivated weapons
The MVT Public Liability Insurance does not cover the purchase or use of deactivated and airsoft weapons.

 

Yep your are right, just looked on the link. I am still waiting for an answer from FNHUK which is now the trading company of Manroy Engineering. 

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On ‎03‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 1:08 PM, WCBOY said:

I dont know about the GPMG but I've had a 30 cal, 50 cal and bazooka from Crossfire and they have been good quality as far as replica's go.  I went to collect the guns and they are a proper engineering company.  I know they also supply some of the current army regiments for recruiting purposes.  Also spotted on the credits on guy martins ww1 tank that they supplied the replica Lewis guns.  I guess they can't be that bad!

I've heard worrying things about MM but by and large good things about Crossfire.  A few of my mates have bought from them and they seemed happy with what they had.  But they are replicas so don't expect like for like quality against a deact.

Just my thoughts.

Hi WCBOY, Yes the 30 and 50cals are not to bad as there is not a lot to them. Basically a rectangular box with a tube with holes in it. I have a set of plans for the 30cal. which I am in the process of getting the steelwork laser cut out to make one.  But the GPMG is a little bit more involved and there are a lot of bits and bobs missing from the replicas from these two sites. As said you do get what you pay for. Must admit I do like mine to look as realistic as possibly.   

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10 hours ago, MatchFuzee said:

Just read this on https://www.mvt.org.uk/joining

Airsoft/ Deactivated weapons
The MVT Public Liability Insurance does not cover the purchase or use of deactivated and airsoft weapons.

 

Countryside Aliance then? :thumbsup:

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15 hours ago, MatchFuzee said:

Just read this on https://www.mvt.org.uk/joining

Airsoft/ Deactivated weapons
The MVT Public Liability Insurance does not cover the purchase or use of deactivated and airsoft weapons.

 

However, wasn't there something in Windscreen that said the MVT was classed as a re-enactors group for VCR purposes?  I'm confused!

Andy

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17 hours ago, DFC1943Fl.Lt. said:

Hi WCBOY, Yes the 30 and 50cals are not to bad as there is not a lot to them. Basically a rectangular box with a tube with holes in it. I have a set of plans for the 30cal. which I am in the process of getting the steelwork laser cut out to make one.  But the GPMG is a little bit more involved and there are a lot of bits and bobs missing from the replicas from these two sites. As said you do get what you pay for. Must admit I do like mine to look as realistic as possibly.   

Just been looking at google images of the GPMG and there definately are bits missing from the repilicas.  Could you get a replica and modify that?

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11 hours ago, andym said:

However, wasn't there something in Windscreen that said the MVT was classed as a re-enactors group for VCR purposes?  I'm confused!

Andy

If just PM'd Skyhawkes (Tim Hawkes) the MVT Safety Office and asked him to read this topic and give us all the definitive reply.

Edited by MatchFuzee
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The GPMG replica offered by D&B has a very complicated specification in order to comply with the current requirements of various British and EEC laws and sensible requirements.

The de-act law changed early last year and has the effect of reducing newly de-activated machine weapons to historical ornaments with virtually no moving parts.

It also made it uneconomic to re-certify older de-act machine guns so that they may be legally sold or transferred between collectors and re-enactors. The last GPMG de-activated to the previous specification that I saw sold in excess of £4000 at a well known military fair in February last year (before the show even opened). I have not seen a new spec. GPMG on the market yet, but I am assured there have been one or two that comply with the current legislation. I suspect that the price remains high due to the scarcity of GPMG parts and the very good strategy of destroying all ex-service weapons to keep them out of the wrong hands.

This left a great hole in the market for many new and existing collectors, re-enactors and film makers who wish to acquire realistic weapons that would stand up to close scrutiny.

There was (and probably still is) further legislation planned to extend the firearms and shotgun laws to bring them into line with other EEC countries. This would also probably include replicas as well.  I have taken the view that this is likely to be some time in the future as the government has quite enough on it's plate without going out of it's way to antagonise several hundred-thousand voters at the moment with new laws that come from an organisation we are committed to leaving.

I have been purchasing legally available new and used parts of GPMG, 30 cal and 50 cal weapons for the past 15 years from military fairs and dealers and used them to fabricate satisfactory replicas to adorn my military vehicle restorations. A few have been passed on to other restorer friends but most have been retained for my own use. I have noticed that most parts are now very hard to come by and those parts available are becoming prohibitably expensive.

It is illegal to purchase any part of a real weapon that contravenes section 5 of the firearms legislation.

This is a somewhat complicated area, but in simple terms, if it is pressure bearing (especially the barrel), if it is part or all of a real receiver, breech block (or bolt) and including for some obscure parts...then it is a very serious offence to buy or sell such items.

It is however quite legal to purchase other parts and accessories that are not included in the prohibited list but be assured that there is little room for error in interpreting the law and the consequences of a wrong or foolish purchase will certainly alter your lifestyle for a number of years.

I now manufacture many of the parts required to complete a whole replica in my workshop. This is a slow time consuming task as there are almost 600 individual parts in a GPMG (honest). Even the rivets have to be individually made (they are modified so that a receiver cannot be converted to withstand the load of live firing). The main components are all very slightly different in size and tolerance so that parts of my replicas will not fit real weapons and vice-versa. Any internal parts are only there to facilitate coking and dry firing and will not transport bullets. Barrels are made from solid bar and are drilled from each end with 8mm drill. The joint invariably does not meet true so that it cannot be used to effectively launch a projectile. I do need the through hole however for those who need a gas banging conversion. Very realistic for film use. Final weapons finish is as near to the original as possible. I have my own phosphating plant and use original plating and paint finishes where possible.

Many of the accessories I use are new real parts from the original suppliers. I have quantities of scarce plastic parts purchased when they have become available. I have had to wait years to obtain some parts.

I take the view that there is no point in spending a fortune on a vehicle restoration getting every detail correct to period and specification only to ruin the whole effect with poor quality weapons. I know they are expensive but they take a lot of cash to buy the thousands of bits and many hours work.

This project has taken many years to perfect, with thousands of hours of drawings (several hundred) and hand made prototype parts. The results were shown to the public for the first tine at W&P last year and we had a great reception....including fooling many people who should know better into thinking they are real weapons. The GPMG was stripped and closely inspected by the authorities who were inspecting many stalls at W&P looking for illegal and stolen weapons and components. The gave us the thumbs up with a worthwhile comment...great.

PS The Manroy factory in Medway closed over a year ago. Manufacturing of the GPMG was transferred back to FN in Belgium (the patent holder). The site is now a housing estate. Many of the components were sold to legitimate dealers upon the closure of the factory and are now becoming increasingly scarce (and expensive).

VCR act applies to all replicas. You know what to do to comply.

Jon

 

 

DSC_0142.JPG

DSC_0141.JPG

DSC_0136.JPG

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7 minutes ago, FourFox said:

The GPMG replica offered by D&B has a very complicated specification in order to comply with the current requirements of various British and EEC laws and sensible requirements.

The de-act law changed early last year and has the effect of reducing newly de-activated machine weapons to historical ornaments with virtually no moving parts.

It also made it uneconomic to re-certify older de-act machine guns so that they may be legally sold or transferred between collectors and re-enactors. The last GPMG de-activated to the previous specification that I saw sold in excess of £4000 at a well known military fair in February last year (before the show even opened). I have not seen a new spec. GPMG on the market yet, but I am assured there have been one or two that comply with the current legislation. I suspect that the price remains high due to the scarcity of GPMG parts and the very good strategy of destroying all ex-service weapons to keep them out of the wrong hands.

This left a great hole in the market for many new and existing collectors, re-enactors and film makers who wish to acquire realistic weapons that would stand up to close scrutiny.

There was (and probably still is) further legislation planned to extend the firearms and shotgun laws to bring them into line with other EEC countries. This would also probably include replicas as well.  I have taken the view that this is likely to be some time in the future as the government has quite enough on it's plate without going out of it's way to antagonise several hundred-thousand voters at the moment with new laws that come from an organisation we are committed to leaving.

I have been purchasing legally available new and used parts of GPMG, 30 cal and 50 cal weapons for the past 15 years from military fairs and dealers and used them to fabricate satisfactory replicas to adorn my military vehicle restorations. A few have been passed on to other restorer friends but most have been retained for my own use. I have noticed that most parts are now very hard to come by and those parts available are becoming prohibitably expensive.

It is illegal to purchase any part of a real weapon that contravenes section 5 of the firearms legislation.

This is a somewhat complicated area, but in simple terms, if it is pressure bearing (especially the barrel), if it is part or all of a real receiver, breech block (or bolt) and including for some obscure parts...then it is a very serious offence to buy or sell such items.

It is however quite legal to purchase other parts and accessories that are not included in the prohibited list but be assured that there is little room for error in interpreting the law and the consequences of a wrong or foolish purchase will certainly alter your lifestyle for a number of years.

I now manufacture many of the parts required to complete a whole replica in my workshop. This is a slow time consuming task as there are almost 600 individual parts in a GPMG (honest). Even the rivets have to be individually made (they are modified so that a receiver cannot be converted to withstand the load of live firing). The main components are all very slightly different in size and tolerance so that parts of my replicas will not fit real weapons and vice-versa. Any internal parts are only there to facilitate coking and dry firing and will not transport bullets. Barrels are made from solid bar and are drilled from each end with 8mm drill. The joint invariably does not meet true so that it cannot be used to effectively launch a projectile. I do need the through hole however for those who need a gas banging conversion. Very realistic for film use. Final weapons finish is as near to the original as possible. I have my own phosphating plant and use original plating and paint finishes where possible.

Many of the accessories I use are new real parts from the original suppliers. I have quantities of scarce plastic parts purchased when they have become available. I have had to wait years to obtain some parts.

I take the view that there is no point in spending a fortune on a vehicle restoration getting every detail correct to period and specification only to ruin the whole effect with poor quality weapons. I know they are expensive but they take a lot of cash to buy the thousands of bits and many hours work.

This project has taken many years to perfect, with thousands of hours of drawings (several hundred) and hand made prototype parts. The results were shown to the public for the first tine at W&P last year and we had a great reception....including fooling many people who should know better into thinking they are real weapons. The GPMG was stripped and closely inspected by the authorities who were inspecting many stalls at W&P looking for illegal and stolen weapons and components. The gave us the thumbs up with a worthwhile comment...great.

PS The Manroy factory in Medway closed over a year ago. Manufacturing of the GPMG was transferred back to FN in Belgium (the patent holder). The site is now a housing estate. Many of the components were sold to legitimate dealers upon the closure of the factory and are now becoming increasingly scarce (and expensive).

VCR act applies to all replicas. You know what to do to comply.

Jon

 

 

DSC_0142.JPG

DSC_0141.JPG

DSC_0136.JPG

Hi Jon, many thanks for your input to this thread. The GPMG you have shown is a fine example, are these for sale and if so, cost. What do you think to the one on D&B, worth that money or not. Have been looking at the airsoft M240 as an alternative but still would prefer the GPMG. I know it is just for show but I do like things to be as original as possible. Still waiting for as answer from Jack at FNHUK and been told there may be a chance of something maybe with regards to a replica, fingers crossed. 

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