Jump to content
LarryH57

Road Traffic Act off-road

Recommended Posts

According to various sources, the Road Traffic Act applies when ever the public is present. Now in respect of military vehicles at a show, either in the arena or involved in a Battle Re-enactment, generally that means the public are excluded so I assume that the RTA doesn't apply. But does the RTA still apply when transitting to and from the arena or if the owners of MV's such as tracked armour that are not capable of ever being road legal, go for a circuit of the boundries in the evening as per the old W&P show? Are wives, girlfriends and kids of owners or a few hangers on from paying public, still classed as 'the public' or not just because its after the show has closed?

 

What is the important issue with the RTA in such circumstances? Is it that all moving vehicles need to have insurance, tax, MOT and and be registered with the DVLA? Surely not if you own an Sdkfz ...whatever.

 

So I'd be interested to know more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is a can of worms to open

Edited by john1950
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who are ' various sources' ?

 

"ROAD" , you may have to go to the RTA (definitions) - my understanding is that the 'road' must be a public highway (one of several forms) inc. pavement & verges , it must be "adopted" - until then it is a 'private road' . In any case - under normal circumstances - the ownership of the underlying soil of a public road remain private the ownership with the facing properties to the centre-line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the purposes of the road traffic act, a road is defined as any place to which the public have access. This would include private car parks, showgrounds - even a private field if, for example, there is a footpath running through it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For the purposes of the road traffic act, a road is defined as any place to which the public have access. This would include private car parks, showgrounds - even a private field if, for example, there is a footpath running through it.

 

What is your 'source info.' , I don't intend delving into the Act. to quote - there is sufficient here :-

 

http://www.1itl.com/news/284/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What is your 'source info.' , I don't intend delving into the Act. to quote - there is sufficient here :-

 

http://www.1itl.com/news/284/

 

35 years in the insurance industry.

 

As an aside, don't all responsible show organisers insist that show entrants must have suitable third party insurance, and hold appropriate licence to drive the vehicle entered in the show? Certainly, all the entry forms I have ever filled in require this. In any case, just suppose you did drive an uninsured vehicle around a showground, and you injured or killed someone with it - how would you feel? More to the point, how would you pay any legitimate claim against you? Claims for serious injury or death can run to many hundreds of thousands, in rare cases even millions, of pounds. Very few, if any, of us, have pockets that deep.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fulltilt,

 

Your link, http://www.1itl.com/news/284/ is one of many saying the same thing. What isn't said is what conditions must our vehicles satisfy when we are using our MVs on a 'road' or place open to the public at a show?

 

If I leave a normal everyday car on the road in front of my house, presumably it needs to be insured, taxed, MOT'd and be registered with the DVLA should a passing policeman be interested in it.

 

If I drive on a proper tarmac road without tax or MOT in an unlicensed vehicle, then its likely to be seized and crushed by the Police.

 

So if we now know that the RTA does actually apply to areas of an MV show outside a prohibited area, such as the arena, then apart from insurance which hopefully everyone agrees on, what else is required?

 

As mentioned above if a vehicle isn't ever going to be fit for the road such as tracked armour, then its never going to be registered, or be taxed or have an MOT. Are there any exemptions for this in the RTA?

 

What is the legal position if my MV happened to be SORN, and trailered to a show and only driven in the show ground?

 

And what is the legal position, if I say buy a WW2 era 500cc motorbike (which I'm not entitled to drive on my current drivers license) and never register it, as I will also trailer it to shows and only ride it at a show and never on a proper tarmac road?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The simple fact is that you have - paid ££ to gain entry to a private event , that can never be a public place..

 

The changes Y2K to the RTA - were all to do with Insurance + 'Disabled Persons' tractors gaining access all over the place ,shops , pedestrian precincts , footpaths, going wrong way down one way streets Some drivers when they all tear out from the local Leonard Cheshire Home are obviously not compos mentis in any case. Certainly the one who flew past me on the pavement last week was not , he had somehow snagged his joggers and drove up the high street with his bare ar$e on display - hail him I did not LoL

 

http://www.darwinclayton.co.uk/news/mechanically-propelled-vehicles

 

Now - that would be good if the polis had gained extra powers under RTA for , travelling clubs / groups of caravaners who roll huge boulders clear with Hiab, cut through locks & steel posts / gates , drive with caravans , free camping on school playing fields , private land etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The simple fact is that you have - paid ££ to gain entry to a private event , that can never be a public place..

 

The changes Y2K to the RTA - were all to do with Insurance + 'Disabled Persons' tractors gaining access all over the place ,shops , pedestrian precincts , footpaths, going wrong way down one way streets Some drivers when they all tear out from the local Leonard Cheshire Home are obviously not compos mentis in any case. Certainly the one who flew past me on the pavement last week was not , he had somehow snagged his joggers and drove up the high street with his bare ar$e on display - hail him I did not LoL

 

http://www.darwinclayton.co.uk/news/mechanically-propelled-vehicles

 

Now - that would be good if the polis had gained extra powers under RTA for , travelling clubs / groups of caravaners who roll huge boulders clear with Hiab, cut through locks & steel posts / gates , drive with caravans , free camping on school playing fields , private land etc.

 

It is clearly nonsense to state that these are private events. The organisers are inviting the public, for a fee, to attend their show. Are you suggesting that the public should be excluded from such events? Even at a strictly private event, it would be extremely foolhardy, and of doubtful legality, to drive a vehicle anywhere where other people are present, whilst uninsured. If I were to do so and knock you down, causing injury, I am sure you would be screaming for compensation before you hit the ground. Where would that leave you if you were unable to walk or work again, and I had no insurance? It is surely a matter of common sense to have the appropriate insurance before you drive a vehicle anywhere.

Thankfully, accidents at shows are extremely rare, but I am aware of an incident at a Landrover show a few years ago when an exhibitor reversed over, and killed, a young child.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have a source as yet but was always under the impression that the RTA only applied to public i.e. adopted roads.

When we went down to Bisley we were always advised that the Police were invited onto the site and could enforce only after permission given by the operators

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting subject, copied from the link: http://www.1itl.com/news/284/

Public Place A location is a public place if people gain access to it in their capacity as members of the public rather than as a person with some form of permission to enter.

Multi storey car parks, hospital car parks and pub car parks during licensing hours have been held to be public places. A pub car park may only be a public place after licensing hours if the public, in fact, do use the car park at that time.

 

Seems clear to me if someone pays to enter a place they are no longer public.

 

If your vehicle is SORNED but insured on a historic vehicle policy with show cover, but with not MOT (if needed), then you're good to trailer it to an event that people pay to enter.

 

Where it gets a bit dodgy is taking your SORNED vehicle to a free to enter show, like a small fund raiser or the likes of Eastbourne's Magnificent Motors.

 

 

Edited by gritineye

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is clearly nonsense to state that these are private events. The organisers are inviting the public, for a fee, to attend their show. Are you suggesting that the public should be excluded from such events? Even at a strictly private event, it would be extremely foolhardy, and of doubtful legality, to drive a vehicle anywhere where other people are present, whilst uninsured. If I were to do so and knock you down, causing injury, I am sure you would be screaming for compensation before you hit the ground. Where would that leave you if you were unable to walk or work again, and I had no insurance? It is surely a matter of common sense to have the appropriate insurance before you drive a vehicle anywhere.

Thankfully, accidents at shows are extremely rare, but I am aware of an incident at a Landrover show a few years ago when an exhibitor reversed over, and killed, a young child.

 

Some people pay their ££ and then enter as a visitor to a event - to view and possibly also participate (eventers may also have a different contract with the organiser) , the ones who don't pay and enter the event - they remain "the public" ..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These days I think there is probably nowhere of limits when it comes to the RTA, If there is an accident. If organising an event a dialog has to be entered into with the event insurance company. Sadly there are incidents but if sound practices are put in place to start with and driving standards monitored throughout the event and the participants understand the dangers there will be less chance of an accident. Unfortunatly there is always someone who will speed diagonally accross a car park not useing the marked roadways or trying to beat the crossing barriers or lights. A piece of rope is no longer enough when it comes to marking out a display arena. Unfortunatly the best driver in the world can have an accident a case in point a few years ago at an event not far from where I live, a Grandfather accidentlly ran over his grandson. We must be striving all of the time to improve safety not only at events but at home on the drive or around the back as well. Think safety people have Priority and what are the brakes for go forward safely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Very interesting subject, copied from the link: http://www.1itl.com/news/284/

Public Place A location is a public place if people gain access to it in their capacity as members of the public rather than as a person with some form of permission to enter.

Multi storey car parks, hospital car parks and pub car parks during licensing hours have been held to be public places. A pub car park may only be a public place after licensing hours if the public, in fact, do use the car park at that time.

 

Seems clear to me if someone pays to enter a place they are no longer public.

 

If your vehicle is SORNED but insured on a historic vehicle policy with show cover, but with not MOT (if needed), then you're good to trailer it to an event that people pay to enter.

 

Where it gets a bit dodgy is taking your SORNED vehicle to a free to enter show, like a small fund raiser or the likes of Eastbourne's Magnificent Motors.

 

 

 

Thought that was a bit too easy, then I found this:

 

[h=3]Extension of definition of “public place” in Public Order Act 1936.[/h]For the definition of “public place” in section 9(1) of the M1 Public Order Act 1936 there shall be substituted—“Public place” includes any highway and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have

access, whether on payment or otherwise ”.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1972/71/section/33

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a vague area.

The way I understand it show fields and the like might have Road Traffic Act applying but that does not make them public highway.

My experience is that my crawler tractor; when I showed it had vintage tractor policy insurance on its serial number. it was not road registered. I was once challenged that I should have tracked vehicle licence but I argued that I wouldn't be able to take a test on that tractor and sense overruled. A car for instance only needs tax and M.O.T. for public highway. A showfield where RTA applies is not public highway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Taking this to the extreme it would suggest that all vehicles in a museum should be taxed, MOT'd and insured, which can't possibly be sensible.

 

Andy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thought that was a bit too easy, then I found this:

 

[h=3]Extension of definition of “public place” in Public Order Act 1936.[/h]For the definition of “public place” in section 9(1) of the M1 Public Order Act 1936 there shall be substituted—“Public place” includes any highway and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have

access, whether on payment or otherwise ”.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1972/71/section/33

 

---

 

Extension of definition of “public place” in Public Order Act 1936.

 

That would make a 'showfield' a public place only in relationship to - the Act stated , Public Order Act 1936 (brawl in the beer tent) etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But an arena, where the public are not permitted access, or any other enclosed area is not public. This became a nightmare (Sorry for pun) with horse shows. The answer is to double rope, with a gap of about two feet to clearly delinate the inner area. Authorised Persons only are allowed access (ie competitors or stewards) with the express permission of the organisers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well this thread has stirred things up a bit, not that was my intension.

 

Somewhere in the dark and distant past I was told that the RTA and various other Acts covering vehicles, also applied off a road or highway, so as stop drivers going mad and driving about without a care for the public's safety.

 

The search continues!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But an arena, where the public are not permitted access, or any other enclosed area is not public.
I think the point of the original question was not the arena nor the display area but getting the vehicle between the two.

 

I remember some years the HSE stepped in at the GDSF and prohibited the parade of horticultural implements that hitherto been a featured arena display because the parade had to cross areas that the public had access to despite the convoy being well marshalled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Somewhere in the dark and distant past I was told that the RTA and various other Acts covering vehicles, also applied off a road or highway, so as stop drivers going mad and driving about without a care for the public's safety.

 

The search continues!

 

 

When you go to events, you must have read the information to exhibitors, also signed the declaration that you have read these and have insurance for your vehicle and correct licence.

At one of the big events in the calendar, there is this in the exhibitors handout;

"under Sections 1,2 and 3 as amended by the Road Traffic Act of 1991 you could be prosecuted for driving recklessly at this type of event if it was considered you endangered lives of other exhibitors or members of the public"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When you go to events, you must have read the information to exhibitors, also signed the declaration that you have read these and have insurance for your vehicle and correct licence.

At one of the big events in the calendar, there is this in the exhibitors handout;

"under Sections 1,2 and 3 as amended by the Road Traffic Act of 1991 you could be prosecuted for driving recklessly at this type of event if it was considered you endangered lives of other exhibitors or members of the public"

 

And yet the issue of little kids on quads etc. persists to this day....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Neil, you beat me to it regarding quad bikes!

 

My point earlier about things we take for granted as being illegal on a road, must surely apply in public areas at shows as defined in earlier posts.

 

The most important matter now is just to discover the extent or otherwise to which the RTA and other related regulations apply, such as driving a vehicle under age, or being unfit to drive through drink, drugs or a medical condition. What if you are banned from driving on the road, is it OK to borrow your friends MV and drive it at the show?

 

And there is of course the driver's license category to consider, so can you drive a Tank in a public area without an H License?

 

Can we drive around in vehicles that might not be 'roadworthy'?

 

Are your children sleeping in their tent next to a main track leading to and from the beer tent in the show ground, considered as public or participants?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scottish law is obviously different to English , Borders car rally spectator deaths in recent years has been heavy (closed road events) - leading to changes by the authorities. RAC Rally Hamsterley Stage - just as much danger from the Transit van convoys moving on to the next stage - speeds through 30 mph villages - quite amazing..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×