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robin craig

FV part numbers rationale

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So,

 

I am interested to know if the same part used on different vehicles while physically being the same did they get a different FV number based on application?

 

Let me give an example, the oil bath air cleaner on a Ferret, a Saracen, a Saladin and a Stalwart, all look the same.

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Robin,

 

All I know is that the "FV number" is the drawing number. As you well know there is also the NSN. Out of interest, most drawings should still be available. For instance I have got several for the Conqueror a few years ago.

 

I would be very surprised if two identical parts had different FV numbers. In the case of the FV oil bath air filter, the basic filter assembly might have one FV number, but if there is the slightest difference, say elbows or mountings etc it would have a its own FV number and drawing. That drawing would refer to the basic assembly FV number and then the additional parts.

 

 

This is only my view and is not authoritive.

 

John

 

 

 

So,

 

I am interested to know if the same part used on different vehicles while physically being the same did they get a different FV number based on application?

 

Let me give an example, the oil bath air cleaner on a Ferret, a Saracen, a Saladin and a Stalwart, all look the same.

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John,

 

great answer, I am already broader in my knowledge.

 

I have observed that most of the older vehicle parts have the FV number either stamped or moulded into or onto them.

 

I am going on a bit of a forensic detective hunt here, so all answers are very very informative, don't stop now.

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To counter the suggestion above, if different vehicles were procured by different parts of the MOD, would anyone have the time and effort available to see if any of the parts could be re-used on another vehicle? It's probably down to the behaviour of the original manufacturer as they're the only people who would know they're supplying a part to more than one vehicle.

 

Andy

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To counter the suggestion above, if different vehicles were procured by different parts of the MOD, would anyone have the time and effort available to see if any of the parts could be re-used on another vehicle? It's probably down to the behaviour of the original manufacturer as they're the only people who would know they're supplying a part to more than one vehicle.

 

Andy

 

I can only add some comments from my experience with the Army Scaling and Cataloguing Authority, which combined the old Army Scaling Authority and Army Cataloguing Authority in late 1989 if memory serves. I was not directly involved in either of the processes mentioned but I know that the desk officers were all very experienced in recognising duplicated items and it was part of their jobs to ensure no item had two separate identities. They indeed had the time and put in the effort to stop it happening. That's not to say it was impossible, but it would have been unusual.

 

Steve.

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To counter the suggestion above, if different vehicles were procured by different parts of the MOD, would anyone have the time and effort available to see if any of the parts could be re-used on another vehicle? It's probably down to the behaviour of the original manufacturer as they're the only people who would know they're supplying a part to more than one vehicle.

 

Andy

 

During my time working for the army in workshops, I can say that parts for one make of vehicle or equipment might be received from stock with a different vehicle makers label or packaging. One that comes to mind was parts for axles on Foden, Bedford TM and Coles 315M cranes, same parts, same NSN, but might come up with a Coles label, but for a Bedford for example.

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During my time working for the army in workshops, I can say that parts for one make of vehicle or equipment might be received from stock with a different vehicle makers label or packaging. One that comes to mind was parts for axles on Foden, Bedford TM and Coles 315M cranes, same parts, same NSN, but might come up with a Coles label, but for a Bedford for example.

 

That seems to back up my thoughts Richard, as several manufacturers made the items and all had their own company part numbers but ended up with the same NSN.

 

Steve.

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That seems to back up my thoughts Richard, as several manufacturers made the items and all had their own company part numbers but ended up with the same NSN.

 

Steve.

 

In the above case the lorry makers would not make the axle or components - they would buy in for spares supply, the OEM (original equipment manufacturer) would be say Eaton Axles . The manufacturer would always raid the 'common parts bin' , only if nothing were suitable would he create a new part drg. IMHO - before a NSN were allocated they would establish the OEM Part No. For the civvy market the lorry manufacturers would have their illustrated parts catalogue with thier own number - to prevent any short circuit to cut out their profit mark up.

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I am interested to know if the same part used on different vehicles while physically being the same did they get a different FV number based on application?

 

No, you only have to look in the FV index in the back of parts books to see a high degree of commonality, particularly with B Series engines.

 

In fact the FV No. is a useful constant when you look in parts books of the 1950s that are VAOS codified & compare the identical item with part books of the 1960s that are predominantly NATO codified.

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Another confusion is that some FV series vehicles have been used for a very long time (I think FV432s are about the oldest still in service) and as a result manufacturers have gone out of business and even some manufacturing methods have become impossible. As a result new parts get designed that are completely interchangeable with the originals but with new numbers. Certainly the intention was that the FV range would use as many standard parts as possible and that where possible a new design would use as many existing parts as practical but that didn't stop Saracen, Saladin and Stalwart having completely different brakes despite being heavily related designs.

 

If you look through a parts list you will find that most parts that were special to the original build of that vehicle do have FV numbers with a particular first few digits, showing that the design was allocated a block of part numbers early on. That can be handy as you can spot the original application if you have an eye for that sort of thing. As far as I know no one has tried to list any of this as it is such a vast task.

 

David

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If you do a search of FV numbers on NSN discs. It will usually throw up a lot of part numbers apart from the NSN, that include the Army, RAF & RN parts together with the manufacturer's numbers and some surprising commonality with part numbers from manufacturers such as Land Rover, Bedford, JCB, Scammel etc

 

Talking VAOS (or later the DMC for NSNs) commonality means a shared Section in LV6/MT without being followed by a vehicle specific code. But as vehicles go out of service the last vehicle standing assumes a vehicle specific code. eg the fuel filter element for Ferret, Humber, CVRT was in (LV)6/MT12 but after Ferret & Humber went out of service the filter moved out of 6MT/12 as it was now unique to one vehicle type & acquired the DMC of 9CVT (with the NSN unchanged).

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Another confusion is that some FV series vehicles have been used for a very long time (I think FV432s are about the oldest still in service) and as a result manufacturers have gone out of business and even some manufacturing methods have become impossible. As a result new parts get designed that are completely interchangeable with the originals but with new numbers.

 

David

 

In the case of the FV430 series there are also examples of NSNs for exactly the same part that have changed over the years.

 

Andy

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I believe that David and Andy are right. You can have the same NSN for two or more different FV numbers. This is because the FV number refers to a drawing or at least a parts list of other FV numbers. My understanding is that you can have the same NSN for two different parts provided that they have the same form, fit, and function.

 

If a part has to be made a different way eg forged rather than fabricated it would be allocated a new FV number because the engineering drawing has changed.

 

When a manufacturer is designing a piece of equipment for FVRDE / MOS / PE ie the Ministry, they would surely be allocated a batch of FV numbers to use for each drawing they produce. This would account for why some numbers are similar. Clearly most components are designed and drawn by industry and not the Ministry.

 

John

 

In the case of the FV430 series there are also examples of NSNs for exactly the same part that have changed over the years.

 

Andy

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When a manufacturer is designing a piece of equipment for FVRDE / MOS / PE ie the Ministry, they would surely be allocated a batch of FV numbers to use for each drawing they produce.

 

Yes, I have a partial list. I'll post it up if I can find it.

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Can't remember what this is for, but it gives a general idea of how FV allocations were structured.

 

FV allocation.jpg

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This information is priceless and I thank you all for it.

 

I am trying to understand as to how to know what a part is by the FV number.

 

Many of us have a solitary vehicle, few people get to see many different vehicles or maintain them. It is only when you get to this stage does the light bulb go on as to the parts numbering when you see the same part on a Land Rover, a Ferret and a Bedford and a Saracen and try to cross reference them.

 

I had, it seems mistakenly, thought that an FV number was the key and not the NSN, now with what is coming out I am less sure.

 

In my mind if I had an FV number I would be able to know what it would work on just by the number, seems I am wrong?

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http://slickpic.us/1428237YD3z/?play

 

This Lucas Drg. at the bottom shows the 'rules of the game' Drawing alteration (revision) + interchangeable / non-interchangeable parts.

 

The humble F700 used on all sorts of marque / type military vehicles. There are variations - a new unit 24 volt bulb fitted would have a different Lucas No. to the same headlamp fitted with a 12 volt bulb. There were several pressed glass lens units , more or less the same but different characteristics such as LHD/RHD type of dip , different wiring lengths . In fact Lucas supplied paint finished (all on different Part Nos.) in RAF blue/grey , yellow (cranes) red (fire engines) DBG , NATO green - all different numbers - at the end iof the day the fitter probably accepted what the storeman handed over the counter and adapted as required.

 

However , the important part is the vehicle manufacturer - what dia. large hole does he cut / punch / drill in his cab along with positioning , along with the small holes for the adjust screws ? Well this is a example that Lucas would provide (at a given date) , fortunately AFAIK these holes never ever changed - rationalization / commonality .

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I have seen examples of the same part having different part numbers depending on when it was packaged and by whom. For example, I have 3 little boxes of rubber battery breathers. 2 of them were packaged in 1961 by Lucas and are marked LV6/MT4 LU/862335 and the other was packaged by Alvis in 1955 and is marked LV9/BOE FV-13550. None of them are marked with an NSN.

 

Cheers,

Terry

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Dear All,

I believe you can have different NSNs for the same part, as part of the NSN identifies what equipment it's for and allows DE&S to track what is consumed on different equipments.  Sorry, no good examples readily to hand.

 

T

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On 04/08/2017 at 4:37 AM, Starfire said:

I have seen examples of the same part having different part numbers depending on when it was packaged and by whom. For example, I have 3 little boxes of rubber battery breathers. 2 of them were packaged in 1961 by Lucas and are marked LV6/MT4 LU/862335 and the other was packaged by Alvis in 1955 and is marked LV9/BOE FV-13550. None of them are marked with an NSN.

 

Cheers,

Terry

Terry I think the answer is that in 1955 that item was perhaps only used in one vehicle type - Humber 1 Ton. Once it was adopted for use in other vehicles it would lose the unique vehicle applicability section & moved into LV6/MT4 = Common electrical stores.

Or it may be that whilst it conformed to the FVRDE Drawing No FV13550, Alvis packaged it as a spare item for the Humber 1 Ton oblivious to the fact that already was an item of supply in VAOS Section LV6/MT4?

It would not have an NSN at that stage. I think the NSN version of the Federal Supply Classification was ratified by the UK in 1956, but I think full implementation was not until 1965.

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38 minutes ago, TJSB said:

Dear All,

I believe you can have different NSNs for the same part, as part of the NSN identifies what equipment it's for and allows DE&S to track what is consumed on different equipments.  Sorry, no good examples readily to hand.

 

T

I don't think that is the case, the National Codification Bureau goes to great lengths to avoid duplication of NSNs as it causes unnecessary expense & wastage. In some cases the NSC (NATO Supply Class) is realigned with a different NSC that is more appropriate whilst retaining the NIIN (NATO Item Identification Number). So with time it is not unusual for there to be changes of NSN by manipulation of the NSC, although it is the same item.

The DMC (Domestic Management Code) that precedes the NSN can give an indication of the purpose particularly if it has a unique application. The DMC in Army use can be traced back to the Sections used in the old VAOS (Vocabulary of Army Ordnance Stores)

As far as system codes go you may be thinking of the Ship System Code, where an item of supply is codified according to the System Code + Equipment Code + Assembly Code a typical code might look like this 211 G123 567 L551 876.

Although this has attractions in vessel manufacture, I remember a submariner telling that some component broke & there was no replacement item carried on board. So they returned to base to demand said item from stores only to be ridiculed by the storeman who informed them that they did in fact carry the item on board but it had a different part number because although an identical item it was part of a different system. Adherence to an NSN, if indeed the Navy considered it worth codifying, would have avoided that sort of incident.

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I have followed this thread with interest the earliest document l have on this subject is dated 1944.

. The attached came in a box of files earlier this week on the subject of the

future of the commonality of  vehicle parts 

 

parts fv.jpg

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