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Jimmy60

90 Amp Generator on 109 FFR Land Rover

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Hi all,

 

As mentioned in my introduction, my first area of concern is with the electrical side of my 109 FFR Land Rover.

I read a lot of forum thread with similar subject as well as some documentation in order to understand my problem, but must admit that I will soon reach competnecies limits.

 

I will try to make it short and factual :

 

- The main problem is with the charging of the batteries. I realized it was a problem when after a period of time the vehicle did not start anymore. It was winter and I was absolutelly not familliar witht the vehicle itself and its specificities. I thought that the vehicle was not running enough (as I had no plates) and that it would charge whan I start to use it on regular basis. In meantime I started to read the manuals and look for information.

 

- First findings were : no changes in the voltage when running the engine and checking voltage at batteries terminals. No movement at all at Ammeters. Ignition light showing red and not coming off even when running.

 

- To the best of my knowledge the Ammeters never worked and to want I can guess from the discharge of the batteries, it was like this from day one in my custody.

 

- At a point of time, the Ignition light started to behave as it should. Showing when at low regime and going off when driving. But there were still no charge at the batteries and no movement at the ammeters.

 

- after a while (recently), the ignition light stopped showing red when starting the engine, nut was now showing red when ignition off and key removed from ignition......

 

- Based on all the reading I made (All charged Up), I can now say the following :

 

1/ I have a 90 amp Gnerator No10 MK3 with a Generator Panel No9 MK3 (which explains the fact that the ignition light might not behave at it should).

2/ I have a shunt box with no ammeters on it

3/ I have 2 ammeters on the dash

 

This seems not to be the common set up as if I follow the findings of Clive I should have a MK2 Generator. So I guess it was changed during it's service in the BOAR......

 

So I went into some checking and findings at different points :

 

- The output at the choke level is between 5 and 10 V so the batteriy relay can't work normally I guess.

- The regulator does not give the figures as explain in Clive's doc : approx 40 ohms, so needs to be checked.

- Tested also the field winding of the generator and discoverd that the carbon brush are damaged. In fact on of the srping if broken and does not push the brush anymore. I have ordered the brush and hope a spring will come with it to replace.....

 

The wiring inside the Shunt box is not as per the picture int he documentation. Especially for the wires of the ammeters. It looks like it has been directly connected or something like this. The wire from the vehicle shunt is not connected at the shunt itself but to a wire coming from harness from Generator Panel to Shunt box.....

 

I have also checked the harness from Generatro to Generator panel and it seems (but need a better check) that continuity on U & V are not there.

This worries me a lot as the price for the harness is almost the price of the vehicle itself.

 

 

 

Anway this is where I stand for now.

 

When I receive the brushes I will install and check if the output of the Generator improves and goes to normal....

If not then I guess I will have to check the diodes and this will probably start to be complicated for my level.

If ok then I will concentrate on the Panel and the Shunt box.

 

 

One of my questions after that is can we by pass part of this installation or not ?

I would say that my only target is to charge the batteries in fact .....

 

 

Thanks a lot for all your comments / suggestions / adivses.

 

Jimmy

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Jimmy just before you get too involved a few thoughts.

 

Using a Gen No.10 Mk 3 rather than a Mk 2 should be no problem you just have higher rated auxiliary diodes.

 

Remember in this installation the negative line is floating above earth & it becomes earthed only when it leaves the shunt box. It is essential that the shunt box & negative terminal are earthed properly.

 

Be wary of continuity tests in the panel to generator cable as tugging on the inner wires can cause failure although the failure is not picked up because a loose dry joint exists responds to a continuity test but cannot carry a significant current. Undo & inspect the connector on the generator end of the cable as in my example there were three dry joints revealed with a gentle tug on the individual wires.

 

Can you check on those first then I'll give your problem more thought. I have things I need to do, I'm not complaining, but I lost the whole of yesterday responding to various problems in emails & PMs, looking things up & scanning, most of today has gone the same. Pleased to help as when time permits, don't let that but you off though.

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I'm no expert - but my '74 109 FFR had issues with pin connectivity in the big multi-plug that is held into the generator by a screwed collar. Might be worth having a look there first??

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Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for your feedback.

Clive, no worries, I am not in a hurry and can easilly give all necessary time.

 

Regarding the earthing, yes, I definitelly have a problem there that I have identified. The earth leed from both Panel and Shunt boxes were cut somehow. So I have ordered them and will replace. I have checked all the others on the body and they look ok.

 

The brushes are on the way and this was surelly a change to be made.

 

I will recheck the cable as well.

 

so for now the plan is to change the brushes, put back the earthing leeds correctly, reconnect all and see what it gives.

 

I will post here what are the results when I am through. I do not think I will be able to do this before the end of the week anyway....

 

Meanwhile, just in case, any idea where I could find the spring that maintains the brush in place ??

PN : 600825

 

Cheers

 

Jimmy

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Meanwhile, just in case, any idea where I could find the spring that maintains the brush in place ??

PN : 600825

 

That is the Rover part number & you won't get much joy, if you search for the Prestolite number 5886-32 you still won't get much joy, but remember that is just the assumed CAV number & this will give some success.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/lucas-cav-5886-32-spring-174-/172641698546?hash=item28323f42f2:g:zB4AAOSwOgdYxraA

 

and he's got 5 of them :-D

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and I see you bought two of them :-D

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going down, only one left!

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Hi all,

 

Took me a while to find the time to move on on my problem but finally was able to move a bit.

I have changed the brushes of the Generator and I now have a better output at the Panel level.

I have roughtly 24.5V between the chocks which is equivalent to what I have at the batteries level.

 

But, there is still no charge to the batteries, so my problem remains all there as I cannot move too far from home....

 

I guess that the problem might come from the relay or the regulator.

 

It is a bit difficult for me at this stage to continue touching left and right as I clearly reach the limit of my competences....

 

Would you recommand I buy a reconditioned Control Panel to see if it resolves the issue ?

 

Thanks a lot for your feedback.

 

Cheers

 

Jimmy

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I would make sure the High/Low charge switch is set to High & that the wiring associated with it is sound. Make sure the points on the vibrating contact regulator are clean, use fine emery cloth then clean with meths. I would follow the fault finding flow chart, most faults I have investigated do not come from the major units themselves but from the cables & connectors linking them.

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A thought springs to mind - has your control panel and shunt box been moved at any time??

 

Mine has the twin ammeters in the dash and when I got it the control panel was moved to the front face of the rear bulkhead behind the drivers seat and the shunt box had been moved to the same side of the bulkhead behind the passenger seat. These are now relocated back into the correct positions in the rear tub. Should be a set of brackets that the control panel goes onto behind the driver whilst the shunt box bolts to the tub side opposite. After moving them back I had some initial problems but by judicious use of terminal cleaner and by tightening connections they were solved.

attachment.php?attachmentid=126550&stc=1

battery wiring .jpg

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Hi Guys,

 

To reply to Clive : the switch is correctly positionned to High. I will try to clean the regulator contacts. When following the fault finding chart, I remeber that I noticed a difference in the results I obtained when the regulator is open or closed. I supect it odes not really function as it should..... Will check and revert.

 

To artistsrifle : my 109 has the 2 ammeters in the dash. The shunt box is behind the driver seat (I have a left handed one) and the control panel is at the back, as shown on your picture. I do not have disctribution box, I guess it was removed.

I had test the main cables from Generator to Control panel, it looks ok, even If I would prefer to change it if it was not so expensive.

 

Will try to make and post some pictures in the next couple of days.

 

Cheers

Jimmy

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Hi all,

 

It seems that the problem does not come from the Control Panel.

I maanged to get a new one, and the problem of not charging remains the same.

Looking into the shunt box, I realized that the cabling was not following the drawing in the "Charged Up".

Made some adjustment but it remain the same, with th eonly difference, that now the charge light doesn't come up any more at all.

 

So was just wondering if the problem could really come from the Shunt box on its own ?

And if the ammeter were faulty ? Would it affect the charging of the batteries ?

For now the ammeter does move at all.....

 

if ant one has an idea......

 

Thanks

 

Jimmy

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And if the ammeter were faulty ? Would it affect the charging of the batteries ?

Nope, most of the current flows through the shunts. I think the basic movement of the ammeter is in the order of 500 micro-amps.

 

 

 

For now the ammeter does move at all.....
I think that was a typo for "doesn't" you could disconnect the ammeter leads where they come off the shunt & momentarily put a multimeter on the ammeter leads & you should see the ammeter needle move. If not then you have a fault in the ammeter or the leads feeding it. But anyway failure would not be the cause of not charging.

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Thanks Clive !

 

I will check the Ammeter just to see then.

Noted that they can't be the cause of the fault.

 

So if I try to Sum up where I stand :

 

- The Control Panel is ok (I doubt I have 2 faulty ones)

- The Shunt box may not be the reason of not charging

 

So I guess I should look again at the Generator level ?

 

The main connexion harness was ok when I tested it. All the pins where ok.

And I have change the brushes of the Generator as one was broken (spring)

 

 

Any other possibility to check the Generator output other than between the 2 main chokes in the Generator Panel ?

 

Cheers

 

Jimmy

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Jimmy when I said put the multimeter on the disconnected ammeter leads I should have said on Ohms just to give the ammeter a little stimulus.

 

The Generator Panels are they all the same Mk? If so which Mk?

 

How did you check the main harness? With a multimeter on ohms? Continuity may be verified but with dry joints passing a minimal current from the multimeter it could be quite different when amps are drawn across such joints. I had I think 3 dry joints in the connector cable that plug into the generator. The pictures show soldered ends of wire sitting loosely in the connector pins but no longer soldered. This connector is prone to tugging damage especially if yours is an earlier installation with the connector fitted on the top of the generator. It would be best to check integrity of these connections by direct inspection & lightly tugging each wire.

 

Also when testing the continuity of individual wires make sure there is no continuity or leakage to other wires in the harness or the outer sheath. I have seen this happen when the harness has been crushed & then unsquashed so it looks innocent enough.

 

 

Make sure the is no sign of bogeys or corrosion on the heatsinks, these should be well painted to make them waterproof to resist short circuiting to the case, either during immersion or subsequent corrosion.

 

Establish that you get the prescribed resistance across U-V on the generator with the cable disconnected in all rotations of the shaft. With everything connected see what voltage you get off U-V in the panel. This is your field winding & of course without a decent magnetic field you won't get a proper output. (The output is regulated by field voltage being adjusted in proportion to the output)

 

The chokes (ah so you must have a Mk 3) are the best place to monitor generator output as the generator -ve line is not earthed until later on). Faults in shunts & earthing strips etc will only cause problems further down the system, they won't effect the voltage at the chokes.

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Clive,

 

For the main harness I tested it with a multimeter on ohms only.

I pulled gently the connectors and they were all ok. Nevertheless, I am not too confident in the main harness and found one to buy yesterday. It should be on the way soon.

At least I will have a spare one.....

 

A quick one on the shunt box :

 

I tested the Ammeters yesterday evening and the needle is moving as per your advice.

But both Ammeter and wired together at theirs leads. And both of them were connected to the Radio Batteries shunt....

This I noticed over the weekend already and plug them back to the vehicle batteires shunt. (it didn't change anything, they were not moving).

But I also have another Lead that is connected to the vehicle batteries shunt..... my understanding in your document is that only the leads for the ammeter are connected to both end of the shunt....

If I remove this lead, I simply have no more ignition.......

I suspect it is the lead that goes to the vehicle batteries (red line on the picture in the doc)....

 

Do you think this could create a problem in the overall circuit ?

 

Cheers

Jimmy

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Jimmy you are doing well, keeping faith & being sensible.

 

Ah so Mr Bodger has been at work, that can really mess up logical testing. I'm afraid even some "automotive electricians", who are no doubt highly skilled with computerised test modules & modern procedures, have difficulty grasping the military 90A system.

 

Yes as you realise connecting the ammeters in parallel across the same shunt is pointless.

 

Curious this wire on the shunt that determines if you have ignition. By that do you mean you have no charge light or that the ignition system doesn't work? Irrespective of the behaviour of the charge warning light the ignition system should still work.

 

The warning light has two functions.

 

With the ignition turned on it supplies a voltage through a devious route through the voltage regulator to supply the field winding to "tickle" it & provide some initial magnetism before the generator is running & can do this itself.

 

Once the generator is providing output the "earthy" end of the bulb is no longer earthy & has a voltage of 24v or so thus matching the voltage of the batteries that are energising the coil. As per the diagram on page 66. To simplify it I have omitted the filter box & ballast resistor as that has a whole article to itself!

 

Well done on the new harness. The list price is £600+ but bear in mind there are different lengths, but even if it is short you can move the gen panel closer for testing.

 

I would check the harness not just for the continuity of individual wires but to make sure there is no inter-leakage between them or the metal sheath.

 

Also check the U-V voltage on the gen panel to verify the field winding is indeed being "tickled".

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Curious this wire on the shunt that determines if you have ignition. By that do you mean you have no charge light or that the ignition system doesn't work? Irrespective of the behaviour of the charge warning light the ignition system should still work.

.

 

 

Clive,

 

I mean that the ignition is not working at all. In fact I have no more "contact" as we say in French. Exactly like if I dissconnect the batteries.

So I am really wondering where this should be connected..... it looks to me that this lead is part of the supply, and kind of closing the circuit ?

 

Shold i try to connect just under the shunt ?

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The vehicle shunt has one side connected to the vehicle batteries +ve (& ammeter), the other side of the shunt goes to the ammeter & a brown with white trace to a terminal post.

 

This is the main battery feed (other than starter of course) & provides via brown fused services on the 4-way fuse panel. It also feeds the ignition switch that, when switched on, emerges as white to the fuse panel the via fuses to green for instruments etc.

 

The white (ie unfused) supplies the feed to the shunt box & thence the coil.

 

So you need to follow this added red wire & see where it goes (Red wires that should be there are to do with side lights)

 

Can you send a picture of the shunt box, it may be that this red wire is simply a replacement for a damaged brown-white wire & confusing the issue when the problem lies in the failure to tickle the field coil or even energise it adequately once running.

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Clive,

 

My mistake, when I mentionned the "red line" I was refering to the red line drawn on the picture on page 57 of the document.

 

Will post a picture.

 

Jimmy

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The lead I mentionned earlier is the one in the red box.

I am wondering where it should be connected, as normaly here goes the lead for the Ammeter......

Or it is at the right place and goes with the ead of the ammeter ?

(but it would differ from the sketch on page 57 of the doc)

 

The leads in the green box are the ones I moved back to the shunt on the right hand side.

 

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=126906&stc=1

IMG_3321 rev1.jpg

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It's a bit too zoomed in to see what else is going on in the wiring on the right.

 

The green box has the radio batteries shunt & there should be a single wire from each end of the shunt, but on the left you have two. I assume the person who thought it was a good idea to have both ammeters in parallel with each other, thought they might as well share a common terminal. But anyway that will not have any effect on the ability of the generator to charge.

 

You seem to have a thick blue Unipren cable on the top of the vehicle shunt that comes from the generator panel & a similar one underneath going to the vehicle batteries, this is correct. The brown-white wire should be the supply to the vehicle & the thinner brown-yellow a through connection for the charge warning light. I suppose my diagram should have included a representation of the brown-white wire, but I was trying not to have too many wires as it was really to just illustrate the charging arrangement.

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When i Checked the cabling of the blue unipren cables, i realized they were not in line with your diagram in page 57.

In fact I had to identify them from the end of the harness and the end in the box.

There was a mix mainly from the ones coming from the panel in fact that were wronlgy connected.

It is not easy to check on this picture as well but I will try to put the corresponding letter on each cable from the panel onto the picture to illustrate what I am saying.

 

In any case, thanks again for the help !!!

 

Jimmy

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=126912&stc=1

IMG_2797.jpg

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In fact on the picture, we can see that the blue cable connected to the upper side of the vehicle shunt does not come from the panel as it should be.

It is coming from the bundle of cables that goes back to the vehicle.....

So I put them back as per the diagram in fact....

will try to make a comparaison of the 2 !

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