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Replacement LEDs for 5W sidelight on Ferret

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I've recently replaced the BA15s 5 Watt front sidelights on my Ferret with LEDs. These draw much less current and thus should be kinder to old wiring looms. The LEDs are also brighter - between two and six times brighter.

 

I used a thermocouple datalogger to measure the temperature effect of three different compatible 24v LEDs, since the 4,300 lumen super-LED that I have replaced in my searchlight, which is seven times brighter than the headlight bulb, has to have a thermal cut-out incorporated in its circuit. I ran the lamps and LEDs for an hour each until the temperature reached equilibrium. The ambient temperature was 14-16 C. The old incandescent bulb reached 43 C.

 

When taking the temperature of the bulb/LED, the air temperature within the space between the bulb and the clear glass lens (lamp holder cover) was measured. The thermocouple did not touch the surface of the bulb or LED. The temperature of the bulb holder was also separately measured. It reached 52 C. The LEDs reached between 16-26 C. The time on the X-axis is in minutes.

 

 

Heating with bulb holder_LEDs.jpg

 

Classic 5W incandescent bulb approx. 75-100 lumens. Fitting: BA15S

 

Chinese LED 1 1156 BA15S 54 LED 3014 SMD Car Tail Backup Light Bulb White

Emitted Color: Pure White; Colour Temp: 6000-7000 K

Power, luminous flux = 540 lumens

Voltage: DC 12-24 V

Input power: 3 W

Current: 125 mA @ 24V

Size: 3.5 cm x 1.7 cm Ø

Brightness factor over incandescent: 6x

 

Chinese LED 2 Twin chipped high Power LED bulb

 

Emitted Color: Pure White; Colour Temp: 6000-7000 K

Power, luminous flux approx: 400 lumens

Voltage: DC 12-24 V

Input power: unknown

Current: unknown

Size: 2.9 cm x 1.7 cm Ø

Brightness factor over incandescent, approx: 4x

 

Classic cars LED 24 VOLT WARM WHITE 8 SMD 5050 LED BULBS GLB149 BA15S 5W

Emitted Color: Warm White Bulbs;Colour Temp: 6000 K

Power, luminous flux = 160 Lumens

Voltage: DC 12-24 V

Input power: 3.2 W

Current: 134 mA @ 24V

Size: 3.7 cm x 1.7 cm Ø

Brightness factor over incandescent: 2x

 

The Classic cars LED is warm white, the Chinese ones are cool white. Warm white will give a more authentic look. I'm told by Duncan Rickards at Classic cars LEDs that they are developing an LED replacement for the BPF P36d headlight, which should be available later this year. I use his red 24v stop-tail LED at the rear, since these are also brighter than the 21/5 W Bay15d incandescent lamps. If anyone wants the data for the stop-tail LED, I can also post this heating graph. I've decided not to replace the incandescent indicator 24 W indicator flasher lamps, because an electronic relay is required for the LEDs to operate, and the old thermal relay only just fits behind the instrument panel and its awkward to get to and repalce. I reckon its only worth replacing those lights that are on more or less continually.

 

cheers, Mad Scientist

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Dear Mad Scientist ( I am sure you have a real name)

 

Thank you for the plethora of information.

 

What is the contact information for the supplier please and prices for the various items?

 

I am on the edge of replacing with LED versions for many vehicles in our fleet as I feel it holds the standards which I work by as follows:-

 

1 it improves the operability of the vehicle as it makes you more visible when on the road and therefore safer

 

2 it does not prevent you from going back to the OEM bulbs in any way so the vehicle is not compromised in value

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Although I can understand this will prove less stressful on wiring looms, does it leave things more prone to dry joints? I am not sure if its the voltage or the current that "seems" to make 24V systems less prone to dodgy connections?

 

That said, using LEDs does seem a great choice.

 

Mick

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Although I am not good at Electrickery, I still found this interesting.

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I have seen ads on that well known auction site for these, and I know people were looking at using them in 6 volt positive ground applications ( WW2 dodge )

 

The e-bay ad for the 6v units specifically states the same bulb will run positive OR negative ground. I know LEDs are quite voltage tolerant, but polarity intolerant without a rectifier - wonder how they can use the same bulb for both polarities?

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I have seen ads on that well known auction site for these, and I know people were looking at using them in 6 volt positive ground applications ( WW2 dodge )

 

The e-bay ad for the 6v units specifically states the same bulb will run positive OR negative ground. I know LEDs are quite voltage tolerant, but polarity intolerant without a rectifier - wonder how they can use the same bulb for both polarities?

 

Some bulbs are polarity sensitive and some are bi-polarity.

 

Another supplier of LED bulbs and flasher units:-

 

http://www.dynamoregulatorconversions.com/

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The e-bay ad for the 6v units specifically states the same bulb will run positive OR negative ground. I know LEDs are quite voltage tolerant, but polarity intolerant without a rectifier - wonder how they can use the same bulb for both polarities?

 

Gordon I wondered that, perhaps there is a tiny diode bridge rectifier in them?

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The only problem I can see is that they are still illegal for road use in the UK. There was a long article about it a fortnight or so ago in Classic Car Weekly. Even some bulbs which carry the "e mark" apparently aren't legal as the mark applies only to the construction, not to the use. It seems that they have to be correctly matched to lenses to make them legal as they emit their light in a different way from conventional bulbs. All of which is a shame as I too was considering them for all the reasons expressed above. But, given insurance companies' enthusiasm for avoiding paying out if there is anything at all untoward on the vehicle, I decided it wasn't worth the risk. I am sure we'll get there in time, but it seems, just not yet. Which also leaves the question about their availability through motor factors and specialists.

 

10 68

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Frankly I am well sure that the local law have much better things to do than pull aged MVs to see if the now more than brighter than original lights have a appropriate manufacture marks.

 

I well respect the compliance with sensible laws but honestly if it made me more visible at night I would do it and take the ticket for the offence if proven.

 

Sometimes there are bigger and better things to worry about.

 

This is meant as my opinion on a subject and not meant to cause offence to the poster in any way what so ever.

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Surely as Ferret lights precede any E nonsense you can use whatever bulbs you like. It is too cold to go and check but I'm 99% certain my Ferret lights do not have E marks.

 

Gordon

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As pre 1960 vehicles in UK are exempt MOT, what can be said ' It lights up'?

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Hello folks,

 

With the original post I constructed the heating curves because I wanted to check that the LED I selected wouldn’t overload the wiring or the lamp unit.

 

The one labelled Chinese LED 1 (2) in the picture was a powerful one that I initially bought. I have decided not to fit it because it is cool white. Here’s a Google short URL link to the ebay webpage. https://goo.gl/c45GB5 The cost is $2.99 or £2.50.

 

The one labelled Chinese LED 2 (3) in the picture came from a relative; sorry, but I don’t have the seller's data, webpage or price.

 

The one labelled Classic car LED (4) came from Duncan Rickards of Classic Car LEDs. The 24v negative earth sidelight LEDs cost £6.99 for a pair, and the red stop-tail LEDs £15.50, including postage.

 

I realise that there are a multitude of vendors to choose from, but I was very impressed by Mr Rickards on the phone, and took his advice to fit warm white rather than cool white for the sidelights as more in keeping with the classic incandescent look, and to fit the red stop-tail combined LED rather than the white version behind a red lens cap. The LEDs also arrived the next day.

 

Thanks for the heads-up about the potential insurance company issue; worth looking into. For the time being I’m using them for safety and the E mark query can wait! I’ve fitted LEDs because I reckon that brighter = safer on a slow-moving camouflaged green classic vehicle. Robin makes a good point that you can always revert to incandescent bulbs.

 

Hope this helps, Mad Scientist aka Jeremy

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Mad scientist aka Jeremy,

 

wonderful write up.

 

How about some pictures of it installed?

 

Now, what about the headlights? What is your choice for these?

 

Love this thread

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Completely coincidentally I've just ordered up some LED BA15Ds from eBay to replace the 21W P21s in my RB44's roof lights. The originals use more power than the radios!

 

Andy

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Dear All,

 

I had a problem with the side lights on the Antar. Nearly every time that I took it out it blew a side lamp bulb. This was because there is no rubber mounting in the lamp. I have changed to LEDs for reliability.

 

On the legal side I think that you have to ask "what would happen in the courts?". On the Construction and Use Regulations? I don't think that you could possibly be prohibited from moving the vehicle but in any case you could always replace the bulb. Furthermore, the vehicle inspectors do not normally have the power to dismantle or require you to dismantle the lamp assembly so how could they conclude that the LED was not E approved? I am sure that they have got much more important things to do that worry about very reliable LED lamps.

 

On the liability side in the event of an accident, imagine this, "Your Honour, the reason why I did not see the outline of the vehicle was because it was fitted with non E approved LEDs. If had been fitted with the usual unreliable incandescent bulbs or E approved LED bulbs I would have seen the vehicle and taken avoiding action" or "Your Honour, I was dazzled by the LED." I don't think that will work!

 

One further advantage of LEDs arises in the event of a breakdown. The LEDs would stay lit for hours, even all night, whereas an incandescent bulb will flatten the battery quite quickly.

 

John

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Mad scientist aka Jeremy,

 

wonderful write up.

 

How about some pictures of it installed?

 

Now, what about the headlights? What is your choice for these?

 

Love this thread

 

Hi Robin,

 

Thanks for your support, other have also raised very good points on this thread. As a newcomer to HMVF, I have found this forum very helpful and useful. I'll post some pictures in a day or so. My apologies, it would make much better sense to show these LEDs in place on the vehicle.

 

As regards LEDs for the headlights, I'm waiting to hear from Classic Cars LEDs about the LED replacement for the BPF P36d headlight that they are developing, which should be available later this year. other than that, I have not heard of a headlight LED alternative, or found a 24V one online. This page offers 6v and 12v BPF LEDS, but I have no experience of buying from it.

 

cheers, Jeremy aka Mad Scientist.

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As pre 1960 vehicles in UK are exempt MOT, what can be said ' It lights up'?

 

Tony, MoT exempt not Construction & Use exempt. You are still under an obligation to keep an MoT exempt vehicle roadworthy, you just don't have to get it tested.

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Words from the voice of reason, practicality and really useful club

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Tony, MoT exempt not Construction & Use exempt. You are still under an obligation to keep an MoT exempt vehicle roadworthy, you just don't have to get it tested.

 

Slightly confused here. :( (yeah, yeah - easily done I know..... :-))

The requirement is to maintain the vehicle in a roadworthy condition - i.e. for this topic all the lights work as intended which for a 1950's vehicle basically means when you turn the light switch on all the lights light up. For a 1950's/1960's vehicle at least "E" codes did not exist so provided when you take your vehicle out all the lights work in the designated manner and colour where is the problem in swapping LED bulbs - E or non-E marked for incandescents??

 

After all - nothing else on them is likely to be "E" marked either - brake pads/shoes, belts, filters, switches,tyres etc.

I can understand the stipulation for vehicles to use "E" marked components for a vehicle either built or still in production when these E marks came into being but how can even VOSA stipulate the use of such components on vehicles that ceased production before the marking was introduced.

If the law stated historic vehicles had to use E marked components then surely virtually every historic vehicle would be off the road!

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Even when pre 1960's vehicles were subject to MOT there were umpteen exemptions, simply because things like seat belts never existed when the vehicle was designed and built, and cannot be retrofitted to current standards.

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Even when pre 1960's vehicles were subject to MOT there were umpteen exemptions, simply because things like seat belts never existed when the vehicle was designed and built, and cannot be retrofitted to current standards.

 

Agreed - a vehicle can only comply with the Construction & Use Regulations that were in force at the time, they can't be retrospective.

 

Andy

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Not 100% correct I think, windscreen washers I believe were retrospectively required (for fixed windscreens) but they might be the only items.

 

Gordon

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Slightly confused here ... how can even VOSA stipulate the use of such components on vehicles that ceased production before the marking was introduced.

 

Even when pre 1960's vehicles were subject to MOT there were umpteen exemptions, simply because things like seat belts never existed when the vehicle was designed and built, and cannot be retrofitted to current standards.

 

Neil, what Tony said. Sorry, I probably sowed confusion because my initial reply to Tony was in general terms, not specifically on the E marking question - and in hindsight I probably misunderstood what he was saying.

 

For the sake of clarity and speaking generally an MoT exempt vehicle must be kept in a roadworthy condition which normally means it has to comply with the regulations that were in force at the time the vehicle was built.

 

I'll get my coat.

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Cheers guys :) I would not have put it past VOSA to try and enforce modern regs on classics but if they had I would have expected a substantial out-cry from the FBHVC. Hence the confusion.

 

On the topic of the LED's themselves - this is currently a favoured topic in Landrover circles and for sidelights and stop/tail it seems a popular upgrade. For indicators I gather the relay needs changing to suit them as the OEM one's do not work with LED's and further work (control box & relay?) is required to fit LED headlamps.

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Neil,

I think the flashers don't work because Leds don't have the required resistance or current draw; no doubt someone better qualified than me will be along soon to confirm or correct.

The only thing with flashers is that they need to be between 60 & 120 flashes per minute

David

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