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johann morris

Panzer 2 turret

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I assumed tank track is steel and not cast iron?

It would be interesting to see if CVRT track could be modified or dressed up to look like Panzer track. There is an endless supply of CVRT track with worn out pads...

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i'm also looking into having track cast so will follow this thread with even more interest. i had considered use old track melted down to make the new, that way you know you're getting the right manganese steel. there's a foundry near me that i've got in mind for doing the casting.

you could even do it yourself if you had the time and inclination

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CVRT track has a single guide horn running between double road wheels. Pz2 track has double horns with a single wheel running between them. Not really convertible.

David

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2 minutes ago, David Herbert said:

CVRT track has a single guide horn running between double road wheels. Pz2 track has double horns with a single wheel running between them. Not really convertible.

David

Yes, I just looked at the pics and can see what you mean, but having seen what Jon can do.....

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As one who is amazed at the quality of this project I have been left wondering how it can be completed without resorting to bank robbery to fund it.

 

I remembered that there was the really nice reproduction late war Lynx in America.  Does anyone know whether the track on that was the same as the earlier Panzer 2.  If it was is there any benefit in contacting them to see how they addressed the manufacture of track and some of the other challenges that are to come?

 

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9 hours ago, Highland_laddie said:

As one who is amazed at the quality of this project I have been left wondering how it can be completed without resorting to bank robbery to fund it.

 

I remembered that there was the really nice reproduction late war Lynx in America.  Does anyone know whether the track on that was the same as the earlier Panzer 2.  If it was is there any benefit in contacting them to see how they addressed the manufacture of track and some of the other challenges that are to come?

The track of the earlier Pz. IIs is quite a bit different from that of the Luchs unfortunately (the latter used interlaced road wheels, which resulted in wider track to begin with).

These are 1:35 scale model tracks, but they show the differences fairly clearly:

Pz. II

Luchs

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Could the model track links be up scaled then 3d printed to form a casting pattern. 

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Match,

Thanks for the link, after Christmas I will make some phone calls.

Highland Laddie,

I assume that you are Scottish, well the scots are renowned for being, lets say prudent with their money, so am I, in fact I haven't got any. I am not going to spend a fortune on it, that's the whole point of the exercise. My time costs me nothing, the most expensive item so far is the steering box and I will do my best to ensure that I stick to that principle.

I have a track link, a little bent but straight ones are readily available. Thanks for the ideas so far my minds racing I keep coming up with ideas then finding reasons why I can't use them. Having read the black knight series of very good books, on the development of several ww2 tanks, I see that every manufacturing option was explored, including malleable cast iron and fabricated links and its the fabricated option that keeps me awake. They didn't last long, I will have to find the information again, but they did last and if they are fabricated in the correct way, with enough strength built in.... We are not talking about a 30 ton monster, and we are not talking about racing around at 30mph, 5mph would be fast enough time to sleep on it again.

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Cast iron is a bad idea, it is too brittle. Most track links for AFVs are a Manganese Steel Alloy. China would be a good source. I know that some have already been cast there. A friend of mine lives in Hong Kong, he did search for suitable foundries a few years ago, and found at least one. (we were thinking about a Pz 38T project). I will ask him if he has details.

About cast Iron: If memory serves me correct, the Saumur PzKpfw II that the Cadmans restored had new made cast iron tracks. The story I heard goes that when a turn was made in cold weather the tracks broke.

Edited by zundapp
Bad reply format

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Axis Track Services just had new track links cast for the Panther they are restoring so it is possible to do?

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I have heard the steel in tracks referred to as "Hadfield Steel" Evidently its composition is such that it work hardens, The fellows that cast new Tiger 1 links in Russia have used the same steel, 10-14% manganese...

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On 12/21/2018 at 9:28 AM, 11th Armoured said:

The track of the earlier Pz. IIs is quite a bit different from that of the Luchs unfortunately (the latter used interlaced road wheels, which resulted in wider track to begin with).

These are 1:35 scale model tracks, but they show the differences fairly clearly:

Hi 11th Armoured,

 

Thanks for the info and the 'links' - yes pun intended 😀

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On 12/21/2018 at 10:46 AM, johann morris said:

I assume that you are Scottish, well the scots are renowned for being, lets say prudent with their money, so am I, in fact I haven't got any. I am not going to spend a fortune on it, that's the whole point of the exercise. My time costs me nothing, the most expensive item so far is the steering box and I will do my best to ensure that I stick to that principle.

Hmmm, I think I would have at least another generation to go before the family is considered Scottish 😀 Although I am a celt of the dragon supporting kind 😉 Besides being impressed with the sheer engineering skill involved in your project I have also been 'gobsmacked' at times with the creativity involved in doing what you do on such a shoe string budget.  That may be why you have so many responses looking at the possible options for track to try and find an option that can make this happen.

 

If it gets to it I would contribute to a 'Go Fund Me' for the track.

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One bright spot is they're all the same, the big cats I believe  had male-female links so the cost would automatically go up

this one looks to be in better shape that the one you have , comes with pin too ,  78 pounds delivered.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-GERMAN-Pz-Kpfw-II-TRACK-LINK-Wermacht/273612189341?hash=item3fb48eae9d:g:9dwAAOSwxxVb7ZmY:rk:39:pf:0

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Happy Christmas to all!!!!!

 

Thanks for the ideas, reply's, in the end they will be  cast steel, whether new or original I don't know, where from, I have no idea but that's for next year. Thanks for the idea and offer Highland Laddie but I must confess, I have never understood the concept, maybe  I am old fashioned or stupid. The project will, I am determined, get finished, as long as I don't suffer a serious bout of death. When? when it does, I am in no hurry. Every little component or assembly takes time, especially as there are no drawings. Part of the problem is determining how an assembly actually works so that it can be replicated and as I don't have the opportunity of stripping these assemblies down or x ray eyes, it takes some time to construct something that will actually work and that's before I start making the assembly. Sometimes I find a picture / drawing, in my dreams.

Have a good one,

 

Jon 

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I Have to confess, being the sad individual I am, I enjoy reading technical books and I have especially enjoyed the series by P.M.Knight. Anyway I digress, This is just for reference, I had to skip through the four books I have to find it, I knew which ever book I started with, it would be in the last one. Page 137 in his A15 Cruiser book.

Taken from field trial report FT911 14th August 1943.

"The TD507 Malleable cast iron (MCI) tracks achieved their expected average life of 1500" (miles).

I not suggesting anything, just that they had a degree of success with that grade of cast iron and the steel tracks only seem to have lasted for the same mileage.

 

Jon

Edited by johann morris

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43 minutes ago, johann morris said:

"The TD507 Malleable cast iron (MCI) tracks achieved their expected average life of 1500" (miles).

Would that have been on a mixture of hard and soft surfaces?

1500 miles is a lot of driving at shows so the tracks could last as long as the tank. 

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The report states that for the first 900 miles the ground was very wet and heavy and there after dry and dusty. The amazing part is that the engines only lasted for an average of 1734 miles.

Jon

 

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In comparison the early  T34 Engines and transmissions Lasted a few hundred miles with steel manganese tracks by the way, 

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The two engines, Russian and British, failed for the same reason, lack of adequate air filtration. In both cases it would appear it was either because the filtration wasn't good enough, the connection pipes weren't long enough or because of the incorrect use and adjustment of the pipe connection retainers, they weren't doing the jubilee clips up properly.

 

Jon

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The best way to solve the problem is visit a foundry and ask the experts. Modern SG cast irons are much better than the early CI. the can bend and twist whilst not snapping. The same goes for the casting design ask at the foundry, they will also put you in touch with pattern makers. Be prepared to drill out the castings for the track pins, it can be done, I've done it.

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Evening All,

I have been itching to get on with the Panzer but kept finding other things to do, so today at last some progress, I made the two idler wheel shafts.

 

Jon

 

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Amazing project. Looking forward to seeing it in the flesh one day.

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