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draganm

Marder 3M build

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well the same guy who recently finished the Stug 3 ausf. D North Africa issue Stug, Mr Phillips, is now doing a Marder. Based on a 1944 chassis that was used by the swedes as a APC (or some-such), it's looking to wind up yet another awesome re-build and a good deal of it will be original. Gun shield/fighting compartment armor and now front armor plate with driver cupola, are ground dug originals. Hopefully more original parts pop up.

 

https://www.facebook.com/Marder-3M-1618628128359892/?ref=py_c

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The chassis is from a Swedish Pansarbandvagn 301, sold on Milweb earlier this year.

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The chassis is from a Swedish Pansarbandvagn 301, sold on Milweb earlier this year.
The Wiki article is confusing, it makes it sound like the 301's were built new in 1961, ?

 

however, according to the owner

 

Stridsvagn 41 built in 1944 (Czech TNHP built under license by Scania in Sweden) then converted to Pansarvagn 301 in 1958. So as close as dammit you will get...

We studied the chassis in more detail and noticed a definitive weld line between the chassis and upper-body.... fusion of 38t and Swedish personal carrier..

were the Pansarbandvagns a mix of new chassis and converted Strids?

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I read somewhere and sods law say's that I cant now find the article, that the chassis for these personnel carriers was produced post war and that they are longer than the war time version. Its something to do with the gap between the road wheels. Apparently there was a museum that was auctioning a similar restoration and someone spotted that the chassis was the post war version. However as I am not an expert on the matter I couldn't tell the difference.

 

Jon

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I read somewhere and sods law say's that I cant now find the article, that the chassis for these personnel carriers was produced post war and that they are longer than the war time version. Its something to do with the gap between the road wheels. Apparently there was a museum that was auctioning a similar restoration and someone spotted that the chassis was the post war version. However as I am not an expert on the matter I couldn't tell the difference.

 

Jon

 

Correct and not. Let's get to the bottom of this.

Sweden produced 116 TNH under licens at Scania in Södertälje during 1941-1943. These tanks were designated Strv m/41 SI and had a Scania 1664 engine.

Another 122 tanks were ordered in 1942 and these tanks got a slightly bigger engine, Scania 603, and because of this a longer chassis and the tanks were designated Strv m/41 SII

 

Before the SII production was ended it was decided to convert the last tanks into SPG and these 18 SPG produced 1944-45 had the longer chassis and was designated Sav m/43. Another 18 Sav were produced 1946-47.

In late 1950's it was decided to use the old tanks and convert them into APC, the lower part was used and on top of that was welded a new body, new engine and steering, but same gearbox. These APC were designated Pbv 301, both the shorter chassis and the slightly longer chassis.

The APC in the article is the shorter one - you can tell by the registration number that it was a SI tank.

 

The Sav m/43 remained in use until early 1970's

There are a few former Sav m/43 out there and some times sold as "original" Panzer 38 T - but that is totally wrong, they are very much look alike, and the APC is not an original Pz 38T even if it was produced during the war. The Swedish tanks were diffeent from the German tanks.

Some Sav has been modified to Pz 38 T and they are sometimes sold as original, but if you know where to look you can tell what is original and not.

The 38T in Munster is definitely a former Swedish Sav m/43.

 

I have no problem with rebuild as long as you are honest about what you have done, but when people are lying I get really angry.

 

Stefan Karlsson, Director

Swedish Tank Museum

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'Before the SII production was ended it was decided to convert the last tanks into SPG and these 18 SPG produced 1944-45 had the longer chassis and was designated Sav m/43. Another 18 Sav were produced 1946-47.

In late 1950's it was decided to use the old tanks and convert them into APC, the lower part was used and on top of that

Some Sav has been modified to Pz 38 T and they are sometimes sold as original, but if you know where to look you can tell what is original and not.

The 38T in Munster is definitely a former Swedish Sav m/43.

 

I have no problem with rebuild as long as you are honest about what you have done, but when people are lying I get really angry.

 

Stefan Karlsson, Director

Swedish Tank Museum'

 

Was there not one of theses Swedish Sav M/43 II masquerading as a 38(t) few years ago on Milweb?

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Stefan,

 

Thank you for a very clear summary of Swedish production of this type. Be prepared for some very emotional responses though !

 

David

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Stefan,

 

Than you very much for that very interesting and informative production summary and now I am off to tell the wife I was right for once, well sort of.

 

 

Jon

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There was a partial complete 38(T) for sale in Norway back in the 2012, but that was, from what I know an original, converted after the war, in Norway, to a tractor, it is now restored and residing in Australia. The original turret came from one of the many bunkers in Norway.

 

I really don't understand the reason for converting all these Sav m43 and Pansarbandvagn 301 in to something they never have been, and actually (IMOO) wasting original parts, on a replica, these parts could possible have been used for restoring a better original candidate.

The Swedish vehicle is just as interesting.

Edited by Niels v

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The more I think about it the more I agree. This Vehicle was an important historical vehicle in its own right that has now been destroyed.

 

Jon

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There was a partial complete 38(T) for sale in Norway back in the 2012, but that was, from what I know an original, converted after the war, in Norway, to a tractor, it is now restored and residing in Australia. The original turret came from one of the many bunkers in Norway.

 

I really don't understand the reason for converting all these Sav m43 and Pansarbandvagn 301 in to something they never have been, and actually (IMOO) wasting original parts, on a replica, these parts could possible have been used for restoring a better original candidate.

The Swedish vehicle is just as interesting.

 

I am not sure if that was the same, but I think it was. A 38 T for sale in Norway offered to IWM, I got pictures of it and I could point out that the chassis 100% sure was a former Sav m/43, but I think the turret was original. I hope that the new owner did not pay as if it was an original.

 

When you claim that it is "original" you can double or tripple the price. Anything with a Swastika or the rumor that it once had one on it makes people ....sorry if I stepped on someone's toe.

 

We have in our museum THE ONLY existing Renault NC 27 in the world - who cares? Nobody.

Everyone ask if we have a Tiger I and some times I answer, yes we had 5 until last year but we had no use for them so we melted them down.

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We have in our museum THE ONLY existing Renault NC 27 in the world - who cares? Nobody.

 

I had never even heard of the Renault NC27 despite tanks being my major interest for 40 years. This is a usefull short write-up about it if anyone else is interested: http://tank-photographs.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/stridsvagn-strv-m28-swedish-tank.html

 

Thanks again Stefan

 

David

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We have in our museum THE ONLY existing Renault NC 27 in the world - who cares? Nobody.

Everyone ask if we have a Tiger I and some times I answer, yes we had 5 until last year but we had no use for them so we melted them down.

 

Hi Stefan,

I recollect a good few years ago you brought a tank over to the War & Peace show at Beltring, was it this Renault NC 27 ? I cannot find my photos to be sure.

 

best regards,

Richard

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Hi Stefan,

I recollect a good few years ago you brought a tank over to the War & Peace show at Beltring, was it this Renault NC 27 ? I cannot find my photos to be sure.

 

best regards,

Richard

 

Richard, that was another "uniteresting" vehicle, a Czech built CKD AH-IV

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AH-IV

This was in 2000 and when we arrived with the transport the load looked a bit strange so people at Beltring came up and asked with BIG eyes if it was a Humwee - "No it is a Swedish light tank from 1937" we said with pride, but they were dissapointed and went back again.

 

We went to Prague with the same tank in 2006 and had a totally different welcome, national television, Czech Minister of Defence etc etc

 

Stefan

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I suppose that some of it is ignorance and lack of interest but a lot of it is the way that we are educated and the fact that as Sweden didn't participate in hostilities in WW1 or WW2, we don't see Swedish tanks on news reels, films etc. In fact most, including myself, are totally unaware of what was happening in Sweden during both Wars. Personally I have no recollection of Sweden ever being mentioned in any history lesson at school. As everything that I read is ww1/ww2 based, I now have a basic knowledge of Sweden's activities during WW2 but what military equipment they had, have, bought or designed I have no idea. As for the Renault, well, that is part of the early development of the Tank and some I beleive were still being used by France in early ww2 but in Britain most don't even know of their existence.

 

 

Jon

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I really don't understand the reason for converting all these Sav m43 and Pansarbandvagn 301 in to something they never have been, and actually (IMOO) wasting original parts, on a replica, these parts could possible have been used for restoring a better original candidate. The Swedish vehicle is just as interesting.

 

When you claim that it is "original" you can double or tripple the price. Anything with a Swastika or the rumor that it once had one on it makes people ....sorry if I stepped on someone's toe.

 

I think this is the key. There's increasing interest and value in WW2 stuff, but it's seen as Germany v. UK / US / Russia - anything else doesn't get a look in. Given how little German equipment survived, there's much more money to be made in making a replica, particularly if you can pass it off as genuine.

 

Personally I'd much prefer that interesting original pieces of history, whether mainstream or not, stayed as interesting original pieces of history, but unfortunately money talks.

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Hi,

 

Back in 2006 there was also a discussion about the Munsterlager Pz 38(t), in that it really was a Stv m/41 SII, it was pointed out that one of the most noticeable characteristics between a SII and and SI/Pz38(t) chassis, was the different size gap between the 2nd and 3rd roadwheels, it being a much larger gap of the SII chassis.

 

The then curator of the Swedish Axvall Museum made the following comments to me by PM about the chassis;-

 

The SII chassis differed from the SI chassis in having upgraded and therefore heavier frontal armour, in addition the new 162HP engine needed approximately an extra 100mm in the engine bay for it to be fitted. This resulted in a new engine bay compartment for the SII, which was approximaterly 200mm longer than the SI.

 

As the rear pair of roadwheels were positioned approximately the same distance from the rear of the new engine compartment as with the old engine ccompartment, it followed that the gap between the front and rear pairs of roadwheels was increased.

 

This also increased the length of track on the ground, and importantly satisfied the need to keep the heavier SII ground pressure the same as the SI, this increased length was the equivalent of one or two extra tracklinks top and bottom of the track run.

 

cheers Paul Hocking

Edited by paul hocking

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Hi,

 

Back in 2006 there was also a discussion about the Munsterlager Pz 38(t), in that it really was a Stv m/41 SII, it was pointed out that one of the most noticeable characteristics beteen a SII and and SI/Pz38(t) chassis, was the different size gap between the 2nd and 3rd roadwheels, it being a much larger gap of the SII chassis.

 

The then curator of the Swedish Axvall Museum made the following comments to me by PM about the chassis;-

 

The SII chassis differed from the SI chassis in having upgraded and therefore heavier frontal armour, in addition the new 162HP engine needed approximately an extra 100mm in the engine bay for it to be fitted. This resulted in a new engine bay compartment for the SII, which was approximaterly 200mm longer than the SI.

 

As the rear pair of roadwheels were positioned approximately the same distance from the rear of the new engine compartment as with the old engine ccompartment, it followed that the gap between the front and rear pairs of roadwheels increased.

 

This also increased the length of track on the ground, and importantly satisfied the need to keep the heavier SII ground pressure the same as the SI, this increased length was the equivalent of one or two extra tracklinks top and bottom of the track run.

 

cheers Paul Hocking

 

Correct, but there ar a lot of other details that can be used as evidence, if you know where to look.

I had a closer look at the Pz 38 T in Munster a few months ago and I am 100% sure that the chassis it is a former Sav m/43. No doubt since a lot of the easiest evidence are still there.

 

Stefan

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well considering there's literally dozens of pics of this vehicle as a Swedish APC, then showing the upper half being cut-off, then a Fiat diesel engine being installed, it seems very unlikely that an attempt will be made to pass it off as an original Marder

 

any maybe it's not the right thing to do to cut it up , but there did not appear to be any serious collectors of late 50's Armored personnel carriers popping up to buy it on Milweb ;)

 

If they can make the top half from authentic German Marder parts, armor, gun, etc. then I think it will at least be more interesting than a 1958 APC that had already been cut-up and re-welded from something else prior.

 

just my opinion.

Edited by draganm

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Thanks for the link.

 

while I maintain that it is down to an owner what they do with their vehicle, I personally prefer to keep vehicles original. If someone does want to create a replica then the range wreck on page 8 of the linked document would be my preferred starting point.

 

thanks to everyone who has contributed to this chain of posts. I'm really enjoying learning about vehicles I didn't know existed.

 

julian

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So if you are building a replica, why spend the extra money and use original parts. Its always only going to be a replica and it would be far, far, cheaper to make the components yourself. Unless of course in the fullness of time things get forgotten and its sold for big money as an original.

 

 

Jon

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So if you are building a replica, why spend the extra money and use original parts. Its always only going to be a replica and it would be far, far, cheaper to make the components yourself. Unless of course in the fullness of time things get forgotten and its sold for big money as an original.

 

 

Jon

that's a good question. I think people obviously want an original vehicle, and sometimes that is just not possible, so the next best thing is to get as close as possible to the original. If you can have original Marder Armor and gun on a 1944 chassis, that's as close as you can get I think to a real one.

 

Or, wait 50 years for an original to be pulled out of a swamp right after you win the lottery :-D

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I don't think there is anything wrong in recreating a Marder; there have been plenty of replicas at MV shows in recent years when Stug or Pz III 'FV432s' and SdKFZ 222 '110 Landrovers' have fought it out with D-Day 'Hotchkiss' Jeeps.

 

If the replica Marder actually looks like a Marder that will be a change, and who knows might get used in films and look a great deal better than what the Germans were using in A Bridge too Far!

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